WW2 or the end of 19th century (1 Viewer)

[Poppo]

From Roman times or even before, states wanted to invade other states, the territorial conquest was a main strategy for everybody.From early 19th century we see the increasing of colonialism to the point that even Italy wanted to have their african colonies in a period when colonialism was going to finish ( beginning of 20th century).
WW1 inspite of millions dead people didn' t change at all the states' s priorities so that many historians consider WW1 and 2 like the same world war.
But WW2 changed totally the states' strategy and people' s customs and moral: after it colonialism ended, the land conquerring was no more important ( apart slightly during cold war which was a consequence of WW2).
Also, if we consider today' s armies, we see armies made of people who become a soldier because they are unemployed, or need to pay university studies and so on...In short, they are mercenaries who do it for money. If you think that during WW2 a man in Germany was socially considered and risked his life for an " iron cross", you see what I mean.

I don' t mean that extreem values of honor, religion and nationalism were good ones (we see what they produced), but also thinking that today MONEY rules doesn' t make me so happy...

Even if today nobody dies in huge wars ( just some in poor countries compared to WW1 or 2)

 

[Martin Tabony]

I don't know which army you're talking about when you say they only serve because they are unemployed. I would assume you yourself have never served or you might realise it's not just a job. You don't start at 09.00 and finish at 17.00 like an office! Your statement that modern soldiers are just mercinaries is offensive to all serving and former service men and women!

Martin

 

[larso]

I'm sorry but I'm just confused as to the point of your post?

 

[Poppo]

I don't know which army you're talking about when you say they only serve because they are unemployed. I would assume you yourself have never served or you might realise it's not just a job. You don't start at 09.00 and finish at 17.00 like an office! Your statement that modern soldiers are just mercinaries is offensive to all serving and former service men and women!

Martin

Martin,

unfortunately, I served in the italian infantry army for one year (for let' s say 5 euros per day) as it was compulsary, so I had no choice...

I don' t mean to discredit people in the army and I am sure that many believe in their job(and some nations are more " nationalist" than others).
If we consider Irak war or Afghanistan, I don' t think that the volonteers over there go for defending their nation, but for the high incomes they receive. And I guess if they wouldn' t get those money, many less would be volunteers for missions...

What I mean is that the mentality in the world has totally changed after WW2: the states don' t think to conquer new lands and people don' t belive any more in values that are now part of another era...

 

[Poppo]

I don't know which army you're talking about when you say they only serve because they are unemployed. I would assume you yourself have never served or you might realise it's not just a job. You don't start at 09.00 and finish at 17.00 like an office! Your statement that modern soldiers are just mercinaries is offensive to all serving and former service men and women!

Martin

Anyway, Thank you for your reply, it is very interesting to see people' s reactions,and different points of view

 

[waynepoo]

Martin,

unfortunately, I served in the italian infantry army for one year (for let' s say 5 euros per day) as it was compulsary, so I had no choice...

I don' t mean to discredit people in the army and I am sure that many believe in their job(and some nations are more " nationalist" than others).
If we consider Irak war or Afghanistan, I don' t think that the volonteers over there go for defending their nation, but for the high incomes they receive. And I guess if they wouldn' t get those money, many less would be volunteers for missions...

What I mean is that the mentality in the world has totally changed after WW2: the states don' t think to conquer new lands and people don' t belive any more in values that are now part of another era...

I don't think the Australian soldiers serving their country in Afghanistan or eslewhere would say or believe that they earn a high income quite the opposite in fact. Also I think the mentality of mankind is a ever changing thing, with each generation attitudes and outlooks change and evolve, I believe this has been the human condition since mankind first learned to walk upright. But hey that's just how I look at things.
Wayne.

 

[Mitch]

Having lost a family member in Afghanistan recently and, have a brother in the RAF flying and fighting not only in Iraq and afghanistan but, recently in Libya they did not join because they were unemployed or are or were mercineries. Its quite well stated that the armed forces are not what I call well paid even in frontline duties. They joined because they wanted to.

I know of nobody that has faught in Iraq or afghanistan that has come back with their pockets lined from all the cash they have earned. They did so because it was their duty and their job not for medals or money. Very strange thread and thought processes
Mitch

 

[Scott]

Martin,

............What I mean is that the mentality in the world has totally changed after WW2: the states don' t think to conquer new lands and people don' t belive any more in values that are now part of another era...

It's more like a controling interest in areas with resources and to get "our S.O.B." in charge as opposed to "their S.O.B." 'tu capisci?'

 

[larso]

Ok, I'm understanding that this thread is about the sort of men in our armies - if so I have the following to share. Australia prides itself on being a class-less society but the reality is that most soldiers come from working class backgrounds. It's different for officers, university degrees are evident amongst them but the soldiers are more the types who would work in basic labouring jobs, trades etc. The great majority are very young and they live and spend like young men. They drink a lot and generally don't save a great deal of their pay.

I've not been in the service for over ten years but when I was an army reservist, I spent two years with a regular army squadron. The basic wage and the various entitlements (allowances, accomodation) meant that all those soldiers were earning more than I was as a bank teller. When the opportunity came to deploy to East Timor in the mid 90s there were some lucrative bonuses indeed. The great number of the regular soldiers I knew couldn't wait to deploy overseas and a significant reason was the money. Quite a few of my reservist friends also went 'full-time'. The money was a big factor to some of these, but the medals and a chance at 'action' were also important. Other former regular soldiers rejoined to be part of it. I'm reliably informed that service in Afghanistan is similarily sought after today. Those that haven't been want to go, those who have want to go back. I imagine the reasons are the same as before - though the level of risk is much higher this time around.....

Are they mercenaries? I wouldn't say so. Are they encouraged by money - absolutely. But so am I!

 

[Jack]

Ok, I'm understanding that this thread is about the sort of men in our armies - if so I have the following to share. Australia prides itself on being a class-less society but the reality is that most soldiers come from working class backgrounds. It's different for officers, university degrees are evident amongst them but the soldiers are more the types who would work in basic labouring jobs, trades etc. The great majority are very young and they live and spend like young men. They drink a lot and generally don't save a great deal of their pay.

I've not been in the service for over ten years but when I was an army reservist, I spent two years with a regular army squadron. The basic wage and the various entitlements (allowances, accomodation) meant that all those soldiers were earning more than I was as a bank teller. When the opportunity came to deploy to East Timor in the mid 90s there were some lucrative bonuses indeed. The great number of the regular soldiers I knew couldn't wait to deploy overseas and a significant reason was the money. Quite a few of my reservist friends also went 'full-time'. The money was a big factor to some of these, but the medals and a chance at 'action' were also important. Other former regular soldiers rejoined to be part of it. I'm reliably informed that service in Afghanistan is similarily sought after today. Those that haven't been want to go, those who have want to go back. I imagine the reasons are the same as before - though the level of risk is much higher this time around.....

Are they mercenaries? I wouldn't say so. Are they encouraged by money - absolutely. But so am I!

No room for patriotism, tradition or the ideal of service in your view Larso?

 

[larso]

"No room for patriotism, tradition or the ideal of service in your view Larso?"

I didn't see a lot of it, no. This said, they were all volunteers. Of course, their reasons for joining up in the first place may have covered some of those. I think it would be true to say they were proud to be Australian soldiers. Australians aren't terribly patriotic in the normal course and it's a bit hard to show your 'metal' in a mosquito infested training ground. I imagine many will find their way to Anzac Day parades at some point, which would speak of purer things.

 

[Poppo]

I don't think the Australian soldiers serving their country in Afghanistan or eslewhere would say or believe that they earn a high income quite the opposite in fact. Also I think the mentality of mankind is a ever changing thing, with each generation attitudes and outlooks change and evolve, I believe this has been the human condition since mankind first learned to walk upright. But hey that's just how I look at things.
Wayne.

Australians left Afghanistan in spring

 

[Poppo]

It's more like a controling interest in areas with resources and to get "our S.O.B." in charge as opposed to "their S.O.B." 'tu capisci?'

Capisco, but in a free world economy like the one we are living in, it is the " holdings" and the "multinational companies", the " high finance speculators" who attack a state more than a army nowadays....

 

[Poppo]

Ok, I'm understanding that this thread is about the sort of men in our armies - if so I have the following to share. Australia prides itself on being a class-less society but the reality is that most soldiers come from working class backgrounds. It's different for officers, university degrees are evident amongst them but the soldiers are more the types who would work in basic labouring jobs, trades etc. The great majority are very young and they live and spend like young men. They drink a lot and generally don't save a great deal of their pay.

I've not been in the service for over ten years but when I was an army reservist, I spent two years with a regular army squadron. The basic wage and the various entitlements (allowances, accomodation) meant that all those soldiers were earning more than I was as a bank teller. When the opportunity came to deploy to East Timor in the mid 90s there were some lucrative bonuses indeed. The great number of the regular soldiers I knew couldn't wait to deploy overseas and a significant reason was the money. Quite a few of my reservist friends also went 'full-time'. The money was a big factor to some of these, but the medals and a chance at 'action' were also important. Other former regular soldiers rejoined to be part of it. I'm reliably informed that service in Afghanistan is similarily sought after today. Those that haven't been want to go, those who have want to go back. I imagine the reasons are the same as before - though the level of risk is much higher this time around.....

Are they mercenaries? I wouldn't say so. Are they encouraged by money - absolutely. But so am I!

Very interesting post Larso, thank you

 

[Poppo]

Having lost a family member in Afghanistan recently and, have a brother in the RAF flying and fighting not only in Iraq and afghanistan but, recently in Libya they did not join because they were unemployed or are or were mercineries. Its quite well stated that the armed forces are not what I call well paid even in frontline duties. They joined because they wanted to.

I know of nobody that has faught in Iraq or afghanistan that has come back with their pockets lined from all the cash they have earned. They did so because it was their duty and their job not for medals or money. Very strange thread and thought processes
Mitch

Yes, Mitch, I believe in what you say....I think british are very, very patritic compared to other countries....At this point, we should establish a list of most and less patriotic countries ( in general) , and I d put Italy at the last place, as Italy can hardly be considered a country; it is more a land where each people thinks of himself and max. to his family....And for sure wouldn' t let himself killed for the country, or the " politicians". We have always been invaded by other countries through history, so we have developped a clever, opportunistic attitude to manipulate our invaders mentality more than fighting them {sm4}
And sure, we can' t say the same about Great Britain, or Germany, or France, or USA...

 

[waynepoo]

Australians left Afghanistan in spring

No, we are still there, you are badly misinformed if you think Australia has left Afghanistan.
Wayne.

 

[Wraith]

....At this point, we should establish a list of most and less patriotic countries ( in general) ...

Trust me, we really, really shouldn't.

....We have always been invaded by other countries through history...

I think you'll find history disagreeing with you, if you stretch your search back a few years

....we have developped a clever, opportunistic attitude to manipulate our invaders mentality more than fighting them {sm4}
And sure, we can' t say the same about Great Britain, or Germany, or France, or USA...

Errr.....nope, no idea what to do with this....^&confuse

 

[Wraith]

No, we are still there, you are badly misinformed if you think Australia has left Afghanistan.
Wayne.

And not just on this point. Really struggling with this thread. Bizzaro ^&confuse{sm2}

 

[Martin Tabony]

What did the Roman ever do for us!!!!!!!!!!!!^&grin

By the way my avatar is the badge of The Life Guards, the senior regiment of the British army and the regiment I am proud to have served in. It sure as h@@l wasn't for the money (ask my wife!!)

 

[Wraith]

What did the Roman ever do for us!!!!!!!!!!!!^&grin

What, apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, viniculture, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health?