WWI German Band in Palestine (4 Viewers)

[PolarBear]

Here is a photo taken in Jerusalem during WWI of the band of Kraftfahrt Park 505 which I believe was a motorized unit of the German Army stationed in Palestine during the war's Middle Eastern Campaign. I would love to see Hiriart make up a set based upon this photo showing them in their khaki tropical uniforms.

 

[PolarBear]

Here is more info

The band of the 505th Motorised Unit of the Asienkorps in 1917 or 1918. They all wear the 1902 Bortfeldt helmet without the eagle but with hatbands in arm of service colour (black with red edging for transport troops) and an imperial cockade worn at the front. They wear the 1896 Schutztruppe tunic. Note the Schutztruppe other ranks shoulder straps of twisted cords in the imperial colours and Schutztruppe style NCOs rank chevrons. Although at least one NCO wears his rank insignia was buttons on the collar as was standard army practice (see close ups below). Almost the whole band wear musicians swallows nests with the bandleader seated on the left being distinguished by fringed swallows nests. Between them they wear several awards of the Iron Cross and Turkish War Medal. They wear kahki trousers and puttees with short marching boots.

 

[Hazebrouck]

Thanks for posting this. That is an interesting military band I would never have known existed.

Scott

 

[ucla1967]

Randy,

Thanks for posting the information on this little known band. When I get caught up with Hiriart (2013 or 2914) on my specials, I could order it for you, if you want. In the mean time, here is a special, non-catalog 19-figure band based on Hiriart catalog set 1198 CACCIATORI d'AFRICA. They are, of course, Italian infantry who fought in Ethiopia in 1936 and then in North Africa during World War II.

 

[jazzeum]

Not that I know anything about the history of that region but wasn't Palestine under complete British control. I would be interested to know where in Palestine, this band or German military units were based.

 

[ucla1967]

Not that I know anything about the history of that region but wasn't Palestine under complete British control. I would be interested to know where in Palestine, this band or German military units were based.

Brad,

The area known as Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire at the start of World War I. Palestine became a League of Nations British mandate after the war. The Germans did have their own forces in the area during the war, in addition, to advisors attached to some Turkish units.

 

[theBaron]

Not that I know anything about the history of that region but wasn't Palestine under complete British control. I would be interested to know where in Palestine, this band or German military units were based.

Only after the war. The region was part of Turkey's possessions at the eastern end of the Mediterranean. There was no "Palestine" as such; if I remember correctly, Jerusalem and Beirut were local administrative centers, reporting back to Damascus as a provinical or territorial capital.

The British were given the region as a League of Nations mandate after the war's end (which diplomatic solution followed negotiations between the French and British as well).

That's the campaign that featured the Australian light horse units, and the Arab Revolt and TE Lawrence.

I wasn't aware that there were any German units there, though, apart from advisors with the Turkish army. Very interesting!

Prost!
Brad

 

[jazzeum]

I'm aware of that having done some, but not a lot of, reading on the matter. In a good part of Palestine, Britain had gained control and obviously I'm aware of the Turkish Army but I wasn't aware that there were German units there as I believe it was generally an insurgent war.

 

[johnnybach]

Oh Mike! - Isn't there any way you could talk the guys at Hiriart into letting out just a few of their gorgeous bands as unpainted castings for old duffers like me to paint for themselves?That Italian band is just beautifully done - and I would just love to have a go at nearly everything that you have shown so far! johnnybach

 

[ucla1967]

I'm aware of that having done some, but not a lot of, reading on the matter. In a good part of Palestine, Britain had gained control and obviously I'm aware of the Turkish Army but I wasn't aware that there were German units there as I believe it was generally an insurgent war.

The insurgent war, as exemplified by Lawrence of Arabia, was largely a side show fought by arab tribes from the Arabian Penisula. The Palestine campaign was fought by British and Commonwealth (e.g., the Australian Light Horse) forces moving northward from Egypt and attacking the Turkish forces stationed in in the area of the Ottoman Empire that we are refering to as Palestine.

I did some quick research on the Asienkorps which was formed to assist the Turks in this geographic area. It did have combat units assigned to it, but was also designed to fill in the gaps in the Turkish Army with respect to support troops. Pasha I was the first group formed in 1914-15, which included the 701st Inf Bn; inf support gun sections from the 701st, 702nd and 703rd Inf Bns; a machine gun company from the 701st; a cavalry squadron; pioneers; flying detachments; and signals, railroad, and medical units. Pasha II in 1917, included the 201st Inf Bde which included the 146th Inf Regt; the 702nd and 703 Inf Bns, which with the 701st Bn, formed a second infantry regiment. I didn't find any mention of the transportation unit that Randy provided the photo of in the quick search I did. However, a site at www.sacktrick.com had interesting information on the Asienkorps uniforms. It mentioned that their khaki uniforms looked too much like the British uniforms, so they reverted back to their field gray uniforms, but sometimes wore khaki helmets and tunics with field gray pants. Now that is a uniform that I like even better than the all khaki uniform.

 

[ucla1967]

Only after the war. The region was part of Turkey's possessions at the eastern end of the Mediterranean. There was no "Palestine" as such; if I remember correctly, Jerusalem and Beirut were local administrative centers, reporting back to Damascus as a provinical or territorial capital.

The British were given the region as a League of Nations mandate after the war's end (which diplomatic solution followed negotiations between the French and British as well).

That's the campaign that featured the Australian light horse units, and the Arab Revolt and TE Lawrence.

I wasn't aware that there were any German units there, though, apart from advisors with the Turkish army. Very interesting!

Prost!
Brad

Brad (the Baron),

You are correct. Palestine was a creation of the British Foreign Office after the war and was given to the British to run as a mandate by the League of Nations. Just like Iraq was created by the British Foreign Office from three former administratrive units of the Ottoman Empire.

 

[theBaron]

Oh Mike! - Isn't there any way you could talk the guys at Hiriart into letting out just a few of their gorgeous bands as unpainted castings for old duffers like me to paint for themselves?That Italian band is just beautifully done - and I would just love to have a go at nearly everything that you have shown so far! johnnybach

That gets me thinking, John--is there any manufacturer of castings who makes anything that we could use for these troops? If I recall, there is some casting of the Schütztruppen, including camel riders, but from German Southwest Africa, and with the tropical hats.

Prost!
Brad

 

[ucla1967]

Oh Mike! - Isn't there any way you could talk the guys at Hiriart into letting out just a few of their gorgeous bands as unpainted castings for old duffers like me to paint for themselves?That Italian band is just beautifully done - and I would just love to have a go at nearly everything that you have shown so far! johnnybach

Sorry, but Hiriart does not sell castings, but there is a good reason for it. While there are great painters out there, like you, there are far more poor ones, like me, who would reflect badly on Hiriart's product quality if the those home-painted castings appeared somewhere for sale.

As I mentioned on another thread, Hiriart has always accomodated me when I have ordered special, non-catalog bands which are based on an existing non-band catalog set. Bob Walker, for the most part, and I have ordered numerous special, non-catalog bands which had an existing catalog set upon which to base them. We have had special bands made of Imperial German Totenkopf Husaren, Imperial German Garde Husaren, Imperial Kaiser Cuirassiers, French Chasseurs Alpins, French Tirailleurs Algerien Turcos, West Indies Regt, German Infantry in 1914, French Pompon Rouge Sailors, and many Latin American bands.

On the other hand, three years ago, Bob ordered several special non-catalog bands which were not based on existing catalog sets; he has received two of them to date: Swedish Horse Guards Mounted Band and Polish Lancers Mounted Band, 1939. He is still waiting for mounted bands of 19th Century Russian Grodno Hussars, Life Guards, Dragoons, 16th Hussars, and Grenadier a Cheval, in addition to a mounted Italian Carabinieri band. So out of fairness to Bob, until he gets his bands, I am not ordering any other special bands not based on existing catalog sets.

 

[jazzeum]

Thanks for clarification although I, of course, only use the term "Palestine" in the short hand way as there never was and has never been any such country.

 

[johnnybach]

That gets me thinking, John--is there any manufacturer of castings who makes anything that we could use for these troops? If I recall, there is some casting of the Schütztruppen, including camel riders, but from German Southwest Africa, and with the tropical hats.

Prost!
Brad

Depends what you want to do with 'em Brad. Have a look at Dorset Soldiers in two areas. "Out of Africa" - there are a few pieces there which could be adapted or tweaked, including camel riding troopers with tropical hats - (I already have some of those done as Camel Corps).

Next category is "European Wars" - there are some Prussian Infantry there that might suit you?

I would like a Brass Band - so I guess next time I see Giles - I'll have a word. I'll copy a pic of those from H - and see what could be done with other castings BUT - that won't be until next year. I'll have a good think in between times. I'll also let you know IF and WHEN - I come up with a solution - and get what I want. I'm already thinking of an Egyptian Cavalry mounted band for next year - and think I can get my Egyptians from Dorset - well - lots of sand there too^&grin

I usually do...............johnnybach

 

[Wolfgang_UK]

Hello,
and thank you very much for this most interesting thread. Woul be great to know if the suggested Feldgrau trousers where where really worn by a band. That would make up for an very unusal and challenging paint job. Wonder if it would really be Feldgrau (a much disputed colour) with it`s distinct green hue or the more common plain slate grey I find in my reference book. Any which way you really triggered my interest and I will definetly start a converting/sculpting project on this subject. Might take a few weeks but this is much too much good reference on a most unusal subject to be missed. I will use Elastolin 7cm (1/24) scale to get this one done. Any further input on the questioned Feldgrau colour is highly welcome.
Anyway a fascinating thread - Thank you very much for shareing.
Best regards
Wolfgang

 

[PolarBear]

For more detailed information on the German Army in Palestine during WWI click on the following headings at this website:


http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/


I. German Army in the Ottoman Empire 1914-18
Brief Campaign and Unit Histories
German Field Grey Uniforms
Ottoman Uniforms
Tropical Uniforms (Includes the German Band in Jerusalem)
Pilots

II. Other German Army Personnel in Tropical Uniforms
The Kaiser and his Staff in Palestine 1898

 

[Hazebrouck]

That gets me thinking, John--is there any manufacturer of castings who makes anything that we could use for these troops? If I recall, there is some casting of the Schütztruppen, including camel riders, but from German Southwest Africa, and with the tropical hats.

I’ve been thinking about making a bandsman or two as well since looking at this thread.

I have a spare New Hope Design Schutztruppe Officer figure sitting in my soldiers to make tin and I don’t think it would be too difficult a conversion. If I grind off the Sam Browne belt, holster and binoculars case, replace the swagger stick with a trumpet from somewhere and work out a method of grinding down the Stohwasser leggings and sculpting puttees I think this figure would be near the money.

Here is the figure-

http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/fo...s-looking-for-some-painting-advice&highlight=

Any thoughts?

Another possibility is the Wilson Edwards figure of a German Army Private in Palestine 1918 (WE-MDE-07). This figure is similarly dressed, however he has puttees and no Sam Browne belt.

I can see a project here!

Scott

 

[johnnybach]

Well Scott, my own thoughts on converting - especially for a band - is it's easier to add than to take away. Almost inevitably with me, if I do one bandsman successfully, it will trigger off the desire for more! Thus, when you're doing a full band of around (say) twenty figures - it's better to go with a simple marching figure - and add detail to it. In TS style, this can very often be just paintwork suggesting details like pockets or belts etcetera, though thin strips of matalised material are good for belts. Instruments/arms are rarely a problem either - just find a caster who can supply them - and you're off. I use Dorset - but in Oz - I then WETS might help you out?

Head changes are relatively simple - just carefully cut off the old - and drill and pin the new one ( which if you have worked it out carefully enough - can often come with a "stick" already cast in. I'll show a pic later - my external drive is playing up - and I can't load it at the mo.

Yes - do have a go with whatever you choose to start with. I just love a band - ever since I looked at "Bill the Bandsman's" huge collection. I took a long look - and was hooked. They're such great fun to do - and surprisingly easy - once you get started. johnnybach

 

[johnnybach]

Ah! Got it back again now (my machine doesn't like my multport attachment and keeps telling me to get a better one!)

Here's a pic of a simple conversion I'm currently doing on what was a Dragoon (prancing horse). I want this one to be an 11th Hussar - so needed a new head. You can see his old head cut off - and the new one already fitted. His head was on a stick, so was easy to drill a hole into the neck with collar retained and pop it in! (35 pence from Dorset!). I will just paint on the bars across the chest ( just like Britains did). As he is on the rearing horse, the front of the tunic will be pretty close to the neck of the horse - and with a drawn sword - his front chest area will be mostly obscured anyway. He will also be behind a Cherry Pickers Band , which will catch the eye more than his detail.

With the Jerries in Jerusalem job ( as I'm calling this one) - most of the attention will focus on their instruments - and their tropical helmets - so a good head/helmet will be important. The rest of the tunic would be okay with a basic casting. Puttees can just be suggested with paint - so if you get a figure with boots, just sand them back a bit and use paint. Thing is, with a band - the eye will take in the whole thing - and not linger to see how many buttons you have on each one. You will see "A Band" - and not individuals.

From memory, "Fusilier" in the UK do a good WW1 marching band figure too in WW1 uniform with lots of braid ( easy to remove with a scalpel) - and with a suitable head change - might work perhaps? Just keep looking around - and you will usually find something. Maybe ask Obee if he could suggest a basic figure and/or a head - as he will know the Aussie castings better?

Anyway - just some of my initial thoughts. jb