K&C response to CS statements (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Generally there are two groups on this forum. It used to be the K and C rah rah club which did not tolerate dissent now it is the We Hate K and C group that don't tolerate dissent. Some pretty strong langauge has been used by some to describe K and C products on this forum. I have collected toy soldiers for many years and I hope to continue for many years doing so. I have a reasonable sense of what I like and a working knowledge of histoirical accuarcy. I don't need a bunch of self appointed fashionistas telling me what I should and should not collect at every drop of a hat. I realize that everyone has an opinion but as dirty Harry said opinions are like ........... everyone's got one. It would be nice if we all simply accepted that this is a forum with diverse tastes and leave it at that. Maybe a separate historical accuracy thread would be a good thing. I mean tomorrow we get dispatches, maybe or maybe not there is a Tiger or French artillery piece so what. Must K and C play possum so some one else can get in on the act. At the moment the forum is dead as no-one dares post anything anymore for fear of falling foul of one of the two interest groups.

Excellant post Damian,i think members of both groups feel afraid to post these days for fear of being shouted down,how did it get to this point?.

Rob

 

[Combat]

Personally I think everyone is just too terrified to actually voice an opinion on this forum anymore.

If you had read the posts that Brad deleted you would really be amazed by some of the comments. I realize why he deletes those but it might be more enlightening if everyone could read those. Here is hopefully a constructive suggestion. If someone criticizes a KC product and you believe the criticism is without merit, how about addressing the issue (e.g. does it exist, is the advertisement accurate, did they try to preempt a competitor etc) rather than accusing the poster of being a KC hater or asking why they post here or berating them with statements like don't buy it if you don't like it or insulting them. I raised a point about the accuracy of a KC advertisement and although there were many of the above statements not a single one addressed whether the advertisement is misleading. Just take a look at that thread. I've been here too long to believe that will anyone will take that advice but there you have it.

 

[Capitolron]

I personally dont think there are "two groups" on the forum.

What we have are people who support King and Country and appreciate honest opinions about their products and a small group of others who seem to enjoy being negative, launching personal attacks and always provoking fights.

The moderators have decided to allow this to occur and we will continue to have these posts - unfortunately.

The people who support King and Country on the K&C thread are making positive statements - which for the life of me - I cant understand how that is a negative?

Maybe we should have two K&C threads - One those have positive remarks and can discuss with out provoking fights and the Second for those who feel they need a negative K&C thread. That way you can pick what you want to read. Sounds like KOREA - North - Angry and South - Happy .... but who knows it might work.

As for me I will spend my time in the South.

 

[Rob]

If you had read the posts that Brad deleted you would really be amazed by some of the comments. I realize why he deletes those but it might be more enlightening if everyone could read those. Here is hopefully a constructive suggestion. If someone criticizes a KC product and you believe the criticism is without merit, how about addressing the issue (e.g. does it exist, is the advertisement accurate, did they try to preempt a competitor etc) rather than accusing the poster of being a KC hater or asking why they post here or berating them with statements like don't buy it if you don't like it or insulting them. I raised a point about the accuracy of a KC advertisement and although there were many of the above statements not a single one addressed whether the advertisement is misleading. Just take a look at that thread. I've been here too long to believe that will anyone will take that advice but there you have it.

Its not really 'berating' someone to say 'if you don't like it don't buy it' is it?.I think this statement is used a lot because some of the more negative posts are often,how can i say this,so bitter and angry that its almost as if they think there is a deliberate policy of K&C to offend and upset customers.You don't have to be a genius to work out that that would be a doomed policy for any company.

I think the negative comments are all part of a free society.However when they start blending smoothly into a long campaign against K&C you have to ask 'If its so bad,why buy'?.

Although Rons suggestion was i'm guessing tongue in cheek,it would be nice to have a thread where we can celebrate the product without being sniped at.Said it before and i'll say it again,theres no reason why you can't be a big flag waver without being seen as some sort of Last round in the bunker nutcase.

Rob

 

[Combat]

Its not really 'berating' someone to say 'if you don't like it don't buy it' is it?.I think this statement is used a lot because some of the more negative posts are often,how can i say this,so bitter and angry that its almost as if they think there is a deliberate policy of K&C to offend and upset customers.You don't have to be a genius to work out that that would be a doomed policy for any company.

I think the negative comments are all part of a free society.However when they start blending smoothly into a long campaign against K&C you have to ask 'If its so bad,why buy'?.

Although Rons suggestion was i'm guessing tongue in cheek,it would be nice to have a thread where we can celebrate the product without being sniped at.Said it before and i'll say it again,theres no reason why you can't be a big flag waver without being seen as some sort of Last round in the bunker nutcase.

Rob

I don't expect to convince you or anyone else since most minds (pro and con whoever they are) are made up. All of us here are KC collectors and enjoy their products including those of us who sometimes criticize KC. One of those most often accused of being a KC "hater" buys a number of their expensive warbirds and probably spends more money on KC products than any of those who are displeased with his comments. So the whole us against them notion is a bit bizarre. On the "don't buy it" charge that one is particularly strange in the case of misleading advertisements where some collectors in fact "would not buy it" if KC provided accurate info about the vehicle. I take that one to mean stop discussing it because we don't like your opinion but can't formulate an argument as to why. I've said my bit here and more so I will refrain from any further comment.

 

[Rob]

I don't expect to convince you or anyone else since most minds (pro and con whoever they are) are made up. All of us here are KC collectors and enjoy their products including those of us who sometimes criticize KC. One of those most often accused of being a KC "hater" buys a number of their expensive warbirds and probably spends more money on KC products than any of those who are displeased with his comments. So the whole us against them notion is a bit bizarre. On the "don't buy it" charge that one is particularly strange in the case of misleading advertisements where some collectors in fact "would not buy it" if KC provided accurate info about the vehicle. I take that one to mean stop discussing it because we don't like your opinion but can't formulate an argument as to why. I've said my bit here and more so I will refrain from any further comment.

I can only speak for myself Combat when i say that if i use that phrase i've always meant exactly that and not 'stop speaking about it'.I just wish there could be some middle ground where people have every right to voice their complaints whilst not launching personal attacks.Right,i've probably outstayed my welcome on this thread!

Rob

 

[OzDigger]

I don't think this is a comment about your posts, Oz. I think you give credit where credit is due, and your criticism is generally an attempt to foster improvements in the products. Some people may not get your sense of humor, but I have often thought that you, or Harry the Heid (whose humor is also sometimes misinterpreted), are some of the most fun and interesting folks on the forum.

There is, however, one individual on this forum who has issues with K&C and anyone, myself included, who is friendly with Andy. You don't know how many times I have had to bite my tongue rather than get embroiled in the unpleasantness (particularly since some of his posts are aimed directly at me, and appear to be suggesting that I am some sort of K&C plant or Andy's stooge).

As I have often pointed out, it is very easy for a person making comments over the internet to go a bit over the line, perhaps without realizing it, since when someone types something, it loses the tone of voice and facial expressions that show the intent to be humerous rather than insulting. I hope that one of these days I meet this individual at a show, and we can talk face to face. I suspect that a conversation had over scotches could take the edge off of the "conflict".

HI Louis, from my initial perception it did look like the comment(s) was aimed at me, but of course I know otherwise now

That said, I am not surprised that I still sometimes appear like a K & C kicker to some because at this late stage in the game I don't think K & C can have to many excuses for stuff ups etc.

And you are certainly correct that humour (especially sarcasm) can be misinterpreted as insults. Which often results in forum fights that can be dragged out in a tit for tat situation that usually doesn't do either party any favors, or the forum in general for that matter. If it's not me or Harry having a go its some other pair and sometimes we see several members involved. I usually enjoy trading 'friendly' insults but comments can go to far and sometimes the referee seems to favor the other side.

At the end of the day it all seems pointless as the comments meant in fun, or malice, are often deleted anyway. Which to me makes the quip trading exercise pointless. So rather than toss back a grenade I often ask to have the offending post deleted as usually it is against the forum rules that we all need to abide by if we agree with them or not.

 

[sammy719]

i have only been on this forum for awile but have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what the title of a "forum" or open discussion is people are going to argue, disagree,fight,it could be music, sports,or even a toy soldier hobby, i don't know capitalron or harryheid or jazzeum or whoever, but i do like the fact that all of you are fellow collectors and we all are very passionate about our hobby, sometimes to much.. ha! but being able to have this forum is great!!!! we may not always agree, but in the end we are own small band of brothers sort of speak......sammy

 

[Currahee Chris]

Personally I think everyone is just too terrified to actually voice an opinion on this forum anymore.

AHHHH- I can see it now- w/ww.terrifiedtreasures.com

sounds like some kind of S&M site

For what it's worth, all you guys can tell me my posts are utter nonsense- I let myself get out of hand that one thread this past summer for all intents and purposes feel free to fire away- I agree that most of my posts are rubbish anyway.... this is a hobby right??

I agree with Vandilay- we need a good NZ opinion to set us all straight- this is a hobby- why get all worked up about all this- however, I can also sincerely appreciate KC's and all the other figure makers concerns over what is being posted as this is their livelihood at stake. I am IMMENSELY thankful that there isn't a web forum somewhere that dissects my work, work ethic or end product- Sweet Jesus- I'd be sacked on the spot!!

 

[OzDigger]

Generally there are two groups on this forum. It used to be the K and C rah rah club which did not tolerate dissent now it is the We Hate K and C group that don't tolerate dissent. Some pretty strong langauge has been used by some to describe K and C products on this forum. I have collected toy soldiers for many years and I hope to continue for many years doing so. I have a reasonable sense of what I like and a working knowledge of histoirical accuarcy. I don't need a bunch of self appointed fashionistas telling me what I should and should not collect at every drop of a hat. I realize that everyone has an opinion but as dirty Harry said opinions are like ........... everyone's got one. It would be nice if we all simply accepted that this is a forum with diverse tastes and leave it at that. Maybe a separate historical accuracy thread would be a good thing. I mean tomorrow we get dispatches, maybe or maybe not there is a Tiger or French artillery piece so what. Must K and C play possum so some one else can get in on the act. At the moment the forum is dead as no-one dares post anything anymore for fear of falling foul of one of the two interest groups.

IMO or should that be IMHO I feel it's not so much a love or hate situation as a "I don't understand why they got it wrong - again." situation

And if forums aren't for sharing opinions, ideas and experiences, then what are they for Damian I appreciate the opinion of other members and have changed my collecting focus largely because of what I have read on this forum. I don't always use the suggestions here for one reason or another, but I think it would be a wasted opportunity to discourage opinion sharing.

 

[damian]

Well Oz sharing opinions is fine it is just the ongoing stridency from both sides that gets a little bit tiresome.

 

[OzDigger]

I personally dont think there are "two groups" on the forum.

What we have are people who support King and Country and appreciate honest opinions about their products and a small group of others who seem to enjoy being negative, launching personal attacks and always provoking fights.

The moderators have decided to allow this to occur and we will continue to have these posts - unfortunately.

The people who support King and Country on the K&C thread are making positive statements - which for the life of me - I cant understand how that is a negative?

Maybe we should have two K&C threads - One those have positive remarks and can discuss with out provoking fights and the Second for those who feel they need a negative K&C thread. That way you can pick what you want to read. Sounds like KOREA - North - Angry and South - Happy .... but who knows it might work.

As for me I will spend my time in the South.

Hi Ron, I'm facing 50 in the face so I'm getting to old for fights, all I have left now are opinions, and I'm not afraid to use them

 

[OzDigger]

Well Oz sharing opinions is fine it is just the ongoing stridency from both sides that gets a little bit tiresome.

Fair enough Damian.

But my wife says I'm like a dog with bone when I'm into an 'issue', so most times I'm not sure when I've got to the tiresome stage

But when you think about it, if there was a list made of tiresome people on this forum I suspect it would be rather long because we all seem to get a bug up our *** about one thing or another.

 

[nmrocks]

My Opinion,
Andy I thought has always exposed himself to the forum too much, he built a great company and it was already the leader in the industry well before we all were expressing our opionions of his artistry.
Anything any of us create are special to us not unlike our own children and how many of us would hold them up too such ridicule and nit picking.
The same for Brian, CS was getting hammered mercilessly and Brian took the high road in all cases until this latest.
I'd ask that we return to a level of respect for all the artistry and hard work that goes in to all the product we love and collect.
Ray

 

[Louis Badolato]

My Opinion,
Andy I thought has always exposed himself to the forum too much, he built a great company and it was already the leader in the industry well before we all were expressing our opionions of his artistry.
Anything any of us create are special to us not unlike our own children and how many of us would hold them up too such ridicule and nit picking.
The same for Brian, CS was getting hammered mercilessly and Brian took the high road in all cases until this latest.
I'd ask that we return to a level of respect for all the artistry and hard work that goes in to all the product we love and collect.
Ray

I'm with you Ray. The funny part is that there are way more positive opinions about the various companies posted on the various threads of this forum than negative ones. I am honored to say that I am personal friends of Andy & Gordon of K&C, Rick Wang of Figarti, and John Jenkins, and have been a supporter and collector of all these producers, as well as Honour Bound.

However, when I temper high praise for one of these producers (like say "I agree the Honour Bound Tiger is the best polystone vehicle made to date") with an honest and accurate comparison between the cost of this vehicle and the cost of the Figarti vehicle that is the subject of the thread, my post is attacked as "hillarious" by one of the people who is allegedly upset about what he percieves as attacks on his right to post his (I am sure honestly held) opinions.

I think if we all behaved with a little decorum, and weren't quick to fly off the handle and devolve to insults, we would all discover that our common ground far outweighed our differences, and we would find our discussions a lot more enjoyable. I know I liked it a lot better when Andy Neilson, Simpson & His Donkey, Halomeeps and many other good friends and interesting people were a lot more active in their posting.

 

[Combat]

However, when I temper high praise for one of these producers (like say "I agree the Honour Bound Tiger is the best polystone vehicle made to date") with an honest and accurate comparison between the cost of this vehicle and the cost of the Figarti vehicle that is the subject of the thread, my post is attacked as "hillarious" by one of the people who is allegedly upset about what he percieves as attacks on his right to post his (I am sure honestly held) opinions.

I think if we all behaved with a little decorum, and weren't quick to fly off the handle and devolve to insults, we would all discover that our common ground far outweighed our differences, and we would find our discussions a lot more enjoyable. I know I liked it a lot better when Andy Neilson, Simpson & His Donkey, Halomeeps and many other good friends and interesting people were a lot more active in their posting.

Louis-
I was contrasting your post on the RJ issue to the effect that we were whinning too much and full of *** - which was unfortunately deleted - with your many posts on the HB price issue including the introduction of the subject for some reason on the Figarti thread. I don't recall ever addressing anyone on this forum in a similar manner. So yes let's all put this behind us and behave with a little more decorum. I'm willing to let it go.

 

[Louis Badolato]

I am glad that post was pulled (yes, after biting my tongue for a long time, I did snap and asked you to stop the whinning, for which I appologize), and I am willing to put this behind me as well. Let's just grab a drink one of these days, preferrably with some of the other principals to this discussion, like Andy, Brad (Jazzeum) Ozdigger and Rob, as I can never have too many friends in this hobby.

 

[Combat]

I am glad that post was pulled (yes, after biting my tongue for a long time, I did snap and asked you to stop the whinning, for which I appologize), and I am willing to put this behind me as well. Let's just grab a drink one of these days, preferrably with some of the other principals to this discussion, like Andy, Brad (Jazzeum) Ozdigger and Rob, as I can never have too many friends in this hobby.

It's a deal if Brad is buying.

 

[damian]

Well it does intrigue me as to why it is K and C alone who seem to evoke this response. No-one crosses swords over Britains Trophy, Figarti, Frontline or Conte etc. Just K and C. There is seldom any middle ground. I just don't get it. I have purchased K and C for over 10 years along with many other makes of toy soldiers. It would seem obvious to me that K and C's speciality, the jewel in their crown is WWII. Obviously it is a popular theme to collect. Andy did virtually single handedly create the modern market in matt WWII. Other companies excel at other eras look at the Britains and Conte AZW stuff. That is very good. The JJ FIW stuff is excellent. So when I hear continual attacks on one company it does strike me as odd. Personally I don't suffer from bugs, but I wonder sometimes about those of us who continue to wage campaigns month in and month out. Over on the other forum we set up a separate historical accuracy thread which allows those who are into this sort of thing to go wild detecting inaccuracies and the like. Those who are the 90% or whatever you want to call them don't have to go to that thread. We could set up a scale matters thread where those of us who own calipers and calculators can also do their thing. People should really live and let live. There is a lot of lip service paid to this idea, but the fact that every month end there is a catfight involving K and C shows that this is indeed only lip service.
As Vandillay said this is only a hobby

 

[Alexdakar]

It's a deal if Brad is buying.

LOL