Eichmann (1 Viewer)

[churchmouse1]

I can just recall who says what about certain things often many years back, quite well.

Must come in handy with the wife

Dave

 

[Mitch]

Dave..

Works against me as she has a better memory than I do.
Mitch

Must come in handy with the wife

Dave

 

[theBaron]

Like I said, not my cup of tea. But any manufacturer can make what he wants, and anyone can take it or leave it. In things like this, suum quique. Not worth the time to discuss.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Mitch]

Combat...

I think that Eichmann has been portrayed more from Hannah Arendt's commentary 1963 rather than anything important from the trial itself. How he has been shaped has derived fundamentally from the immediate works from that time.

He certainly, is a complex character and rather typical of the german at that time in history that was accused of the crimes he was. Though at trial he was accused of a substantial amount of crimes he was not guilty of with the recent release of new documents prove.

Its also debatable whether he attended the camps as often as has been indicated apart from Auswitch where he attended before it began its operation.

His complexity is futher compounded by testimony from key players at the time. Was he the omnipotant officer in the annihalation of the european jews as suggested in his trial and since or, a cog in the machinery?? Wisliceny testified Eichmann would do very little without in fact would not move without higher approval whilst, Hoess testified that he was a vivacious man who would strive to get things done and would not rest until his orders were undertaken.

There is little doubt of his involvement with the wansee conference and the detailed work afterwards and the fact that he was seen by Heydrich as his ''competant official'' but, there is evidence that after Heydrichs death he was less involved under Kaltenbruner than he was with Heydrich. Much has been written that this may be a reason why he was so hands on in Hungary and tried to ensure the Hungarian jews were deported before the end of the war.

Its another paradox when trying to understand this man and his role. He was also not seen as being a dyed-in-the-wool jew hater but, more cynical in his attitude to the jews especially. He was not immoral per se more amoral.
Mitch

 

[Currahee Chris]

Man alive, talk about splitting hairs

who cares, put him against the wall, 2 in the chest one in the head. NEXT!

Gotta admit Mitch, you are enigma, wrapped in a mystery- last week you were ready to tar, feather and flog MTSC, now you seem to be lobbying for Eichmann

I think that Eichmann has been portrayed more from Hannah Arendt's commentary 1963 rather than anything important from the trial itself. How he has been shaped has derived fundamentally from the immediate works from that time.

He certainly, is a complex character and rather typical of the german at that time in history that was accused of the crimes he was. Though at trial he was accused of a substantial amount of crimes he was not guilty of with the recent release of new documents prove.

Its also debatable whether he attended the camps as often as has been indicated apart from Auswitch where he attended before it began its operation.

His complexity is futher compounded by testimony from key players at the time. Was he the omnipotant officer in the annihalation of the european jews as suggested in his trial and since or, a cog in the machinery?? Wisliceny testified Eichmann would do very little without in fact would not move without higher approval whilst, Hoess testified that he was a vivacious man who would strive to get things done and would not rest until his orders were undertaken.

There is little doubt of his involvement with the wansee conference and the detailed work afterwards and the fact that he was seen by Heydrich as his ''competant official'' but, there is evidence that after Heydrichs death he was less involved under Kaltenbruner than he was with Heydrich. Much has been written that this may be a reason why he was so hands on in Hungary and tried to ensure the Hungarian jews were deported before the end of the war.

Its another paradox when trying to understand this man and his role. He was also not seen as being a dyed-in-the-wool jew hater but, more cynical in his attitude to the jews especially. He was not immoral per se more amoral.
Mitch

 

[Rob]

Man alive, talk about splitting hairs

who cares, put him against the wall, 2 in the chest one in the head. NEXT!

Gotta admit Mitch, you are enigma, wrapped in a mystery- last week you were ready to tar, feather and flog MTSC, now you seem to be lobbying for Eichmann

Why ruin a perfectly good wall Chris, and the bullets would be faaaar to quick.

Rob

 

[The Military Workshop]

I agree with the Moderator when he said :
"I see no need for further discussion of this subject".
particularly since K&C has indicated they will not do such a figure.

 

[Combat]

I agree with the Moderator when he said :
"I see no need for further discussion of this subject".
particularly since K&C has indicated they will not do such a figure.

The question is not whether KC will do a figure, but whether they make judgments when deciding upon potential figures based upon factors other than monetary incentives. For example, there were concerns expressed about the SA and LAH releases. Would an Eichmann figure differ from those and others that KC has done? Or is it that they don't believe it would sell? Is the reason that it might not sell specific to Eichmann himself such that we have come full circle. It seems like a legitimate question - or at least as legitimate as many I read here.

 

[Rob]

Must say I've lost count of the amount of folk who've said to me they suspect the reasoning of some for collecting LAH, I've no idea if this is true or not and I hope its not, but the day we try to explain,water down, compare, condone or stop short of calling people like Eichmann,Himmler, Heydrich and co the murderers we know they were, its a very very bad day indeed.

Rob

 

[The Military Workshop]

Combat,
Most figures (except Club figures) come out as part of a group so I would think a requirement is how does the figure fit with others in a scene. That might be a problem with this particular person.

I collect leaders but have no interest in Eichmann as a figure. I do have Himmler, Heydrich etc in my collection but feel no need to go into the lower ranks. There are other Generals and commanders I would much rather see.

Regards
Brett

 

[Currahee Chris]

Its a very interesting area and I think its unfair to class my post as you have. I did not say they should not have recieved the punishment they did just elaborating the debate with Combat who also shares an interest.

Agreed. Please accept my sincerest apology as I certainly did not mean to draw hasty conclusions about yourself- was just a bit ...well...nevermind...out of respect for yourself and certainly our hosts, I will not beat this horse. I think we have all agreed to move on. Certainly no hard feelings on my end.

Kindest regards
CC

 

[Mitch]

certainly none taken.
Mitch

Agreed. Please accept my sincerest apology as I certainly did not mean to draw hasty conclusions about yourself- was just a bit ...well...nevermind...out of respect for yourself and certainly our hosts, I will not beat this horse. I think we have all agreed to move on. Certainly no hard feelings on my end.

Kindest regards
CC

 

[thebritfarmer]

I think as has been said before, to end this thread before it sees a lockdown.

 

[Rob]

Rob...

Then a number of professors and other academic historians who I know and have helped with research and the many who have written books on SS germans and the holocaust must by that definition be some sort of nazi sympathisers and, I suppose as I collect LAH and have interviewed SS officers including camp guards must be similar????

Its rather simplistic to say this and my post is based on historical facts. Now, does that mean anyone who writes about germans and offers an explanation alternative to the seemingly happy to be expected ''thier all murderes'' is a sympathiser?? not at all. If anyone thinks that Eichmann or any myriad of germans were just some evil, devil type form murderers is not wishing to address the complex issues surrounding the whole regime period of time this occured.

I wonder if I would be seen as a communist if I had researched the soviet union during the war and after as much as I had the germans. I bet not
Mitch

I see you 'took acception' to my post Mitch, but did I name you, no I did not, I've been on this forum for longer than yourself and so have read many more posts. I put it to you your post did have a 'less than harsh' feel about it concerning Eichmann, with respect to yourself it would not matter how many people you have interviewed, most people believe Eichmann,Himmler, Heydrich to either be mass murderers or at the least complicit in those murders. I say again we are all entitled to our opinions and indeed our collections, just as we are all free to draw our own conclusions.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

Its not rocket science to work out what it meant.especially, when I said exactly the same thing to you this morning. I think therefore anytime we have a debate about german issues then there must be almost a signature saying by the way I don't agree about what they did. Then we have to do similar with the russians chinese and japanese and all the other despots that have ran through history.

I did think there were more sensible thinkers open to all sides of the debate than that on here. Its too simplistic to have only one side of the argument I am not happy with saying they were all murderers end off. I want to know more and sadly, if thats then interpreted as being somehow neo nazi or a symapthiser well thats a concern for others.

I have always thought that historians were an open minded bunch the fact that we wish not to see them as anything other than monsters is rather strange. I cannot see how anyone with an interest in history could not be interested in how these monsters did what they did and,then ran perfectly normal lives around these actions

I know its not just me as many historians and respected ones have tried to undertsand this pivotal issue
Mitch

 

[Rob]

Rob...

Its not rocket science to work out what it meant.especially, when I said exactly the same thing to you this morning. I think therefore anytime we have a debate about german issues then there must be almost a signature saying by the way I don't agree about what they did. Then we have to do similar with the russians chinese and japanese and all the other despots that have ran through history.

I did think there were more sensible thinkers open to all sides of the debate than that on here. Its too simplistic to have only one side of the argument I am not happy with saying they were all murderers end off. I want to know more and sadly, if thats then interpreted as being somehow neo nazi or a symapthiser well thats a concern for others.

I have always thought that historians were an open minded bunch the fact that we wish not to see them as anything other than monsters is rather strange. I cannot see how anyone with an interest in history could not be interested in how these monsters did what they did and,then ran perfectly normal lives around these actions

I know its not just me as many historians and respected ones have tried to undertsand this pivotal issue
Mitch

But Mitch (and I've no wish to argue here) but you are saying I've aimed my remarks at you and I've demied it, yet you have done the same to me in the past and then denied it.

As I say I've no wish to argue so will bow out here, all I say is we have to remember the quote that goes something along the lines of 'It only takes a few good men to do nothing' and the other about 'Forgetting the lessons of History'. Oh well, too many threads have been heated of late Mitch and I don't want my view to do the same here, so I will say thanks for the frank exchange, all views on here are very interesting and even a bit of sharp debating is fun, cheers

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

I have always thought that historians were an open minded bunch the fact that we wish not to see them as anything other than monsters is rather strange. I cannot see how anyone with an interest in history could not be interested in how these monsters did what they did and,then ran perfectly normal lives around these actions

Hey Mitch-

again, please do not take this personally, but those SOB's tried to kill my grandfather- I am a pretty simple person when it is all said and done. German and Japanese- bad, American and British- good. Iraqi/AL qAEDA Terrorist bad- American and British Good- sorry, but to me, the world is pretty black and white. I could absolutely care less why the baddies do what they do, just so long as my rifle sight (or the sights of my ancestors and allies) are true.

Again, I am a huge fan of Rome and do have a modest interest in the German Wehrmacht. I can appreciate where you are coming from- I am just too simple to delve too deeply into it. At the end of the day, the question that each collector needs to ask themselves is- can they separate toy soldiers from reality. If you can separate the LAH ideology, which I certainly believe you do, then you are ok. But, after years of going to conventions, wargaming shows, etc, there are some of our bretheren who I have to sit back and wonder.

 

[wadepat]

Gentle Friends,

As Dave and Scott have warned, this thread is becoming dangerously close to requiring moderator intervention. This argument has emerged many times on the forum with no real resolution. Sooner or later, the discussion inflames members who, for a variety of very good reasons, find it necessary to elevate the discussion to unacceptable and/or ugly levels. If you wish to continue your discussion with specific members, please do so via PMs. Otherwise, it may become necessary to for the moderators to intervene.

Thanks for your understanding and coorperation.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[jazzeum]

Hi Treefroggers,

Re a figure of Eichmann… K&C has no interest in producing a figure of him.

Sincerely,
Gordon C. Neilson

Since K & C has answered the question, I'm wondering what there is to discuss. I'm also glad they have decided not to make such a figure.

As I have been down this road several times, I have no desire to again trudge down that road, a development that I'm sure will make Pete, Dave, Scott and Pat very happy

 

[Rob]

Gentle Friends,

As Dave and Scott have warned, this thread is becoming dangerously close to requiring moderator intervention. This argument has emerged many times on the forum with no real resolution. Sooner or later, the discussion inflames members who, for a variety of very good reasons, find it necessary to elevate the discussion to unacceptable and/or ugly levels. If you wish to continue your discussion with specific members, please do so via PMs. Otherwise, it may become necessary to for the moderators to intervene.

Thanks for your understanding and coorperation.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

Its a very emotive subject this one and as you say Pat often discussed in the past. However I think we are all grown ups (of sorts) and can have a robust debate with no problem, I'll try and make sure my posts don't contribute to any 'heat'

Rob