Are you easily swayed??? (1 Viewer)

[MC BOWEN]

Yes i am weak.As i stated in your other thread Rob i bought the new 109 should be arriving today.I said i was not going to get into the planes --OH WELL so much for self control.Mike B.

 

[villagehorse]

Yes have to be very careful, have to many series already on the go spanning AE to WW11, I too see a film and my thoughts immediately wander on how I could duplicate a scene in miniatures, only problem with that could be talking thousands of dollars. Very addictive this hobby. Cheers, Robin.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

No question the 88 could pick off tanks at long ranges whether it was Kursk,Normandy or Alamein, awesome weapon, but there was close quarter action at Kursk I understand and ramming of Tanks by the other side. Also the shoot and scoot tactic did on occasion negate the Tiger and its slow traverse, the Americans at Arracourt used this to great effect, not sure if the Russians did at Kursk or not though.

Rob

Kursk was anti-tank minefields, tank ditches, killing zones, anti-tank guns and defense in depth which did the main damage to the Germans. Arracourt was about an understrength Panzer Division with Pz.IV, an inexperienced division with Panthers and inadequate reconnaissance units. The Germans used fog as protection from air attacks but the actual effect was to negate the greater range of the Panthers guns and made the US tank destroyers better able to hide.

Terry

 

[Rob]

I agree that the German armor outgunned the T-34's. Problem was there were many more of them than the panzers such as Kursk, Russian tanks ran up to German tanks and rammed them, sometimes driving up on the stunned panzers.
The military channel program covering the top 10 tanks was not a documentary but a program designed to identify what was the #1 vehicle based upon : production numbers,speed, firepower,armor. Taking into consideration all of these attributes the T-34 ranked 1st.That being said a Tiger or King Tiger remain 2 of my favorites from the period.

I don't think, as Mitch is suggesting,that the ramming was a mass tactic or happened on a large scale at Kursk, however there were incidents of it no doubt. I was lucky enough some six or seven years ago to meet a Russian Tank veteran who was at Kursk who told me he witnessed this first hand and that the results were not always as portrayed, the incident he saw did not result in the German Tank being completely destroyed, damaged yes, but not an inferno.

Rob

 

[Rob]

Kursk was anti-tank minefields, tank ditches, killing zones, anti-tank guns and defense in depth which did the main damage to the Germans. Arracourt was about an understrength Panzer Division with Pz.IV, an inexperienced division with Panthers and inadequate reconnaissance units. The Germans used fog as protection from air attacks but the actual effect was to negate the greater range of the Panthers guns and made the US tank destroyers better able to hide.

Terry

Yes, but that does not at all change the fact that the shoot and scoot the US tank crew used at Arracourt enabled them to halt an attack of a larger force and in the process destroy Tigers, my point was that the slow turret traverse of the Tiger could sometimes be its downfall, as was the case on occasion in Normandy. A mix of the Firefly and ordinary Shermans as decoy proved this could be done (dangerous as it was for the decoy)

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I agree that the German armor outgunned the T-34's. Problem was there were many more of them than the panzers such as Kursk, Russian tanks ran up to German tanks and rammed them, sometimes driving up on the stunned panzers.
The military channel program covering the top 10 tanks was not a documentary but a program designed to identify what was the #1 vehicle based upon : production numbers,speed, firepower,armor. Taking into consideration all of these attributes the T-34 ranked 1st.That being said a Tiger or King Tiger remain 2 of my favorites from the period.

Saw the program. Don't believe everything on TV. The T-34 was no better than the Sherman - in fact very similar in many ways. The T-34 did well against the Pz. III and short barreled Pz. IV as did the Shermans in north Afrika. But once the Germans got upgunned Pz. IV, Panthers and Tigers the T-34 was no match. In fact the 2 man turret and lack of radios were huge disadvantages for the T-34/76.

Terry

 

[Rob]

Saw the program. Don't believe everything on TV. The T-34 was no better than the Sherman - in fact very similar in many ways. The T-34 did well against the Pz. III and short barreled Pz. IV as did the Shermans in north Afrika. But once the Germans got upgunned Pz. IV, Panthers and Tigers the T-34 was no match. In fact the 2 man turret and lack of radios were huge disadvantages for the T-34/76.

Terry

Thats quite a sweeping statement, the T34 had better sloping armour than the Sherman and wider tracks that were better in mud and snow, its engine was also good in the cold , basic yes it was its welding was rough, I think most agree all in all better than the Sherman though.

Rob

 

[Rob]

Yes i am weak.As i stated in your other thread Rob i bought the new 109 should be arriving today.I said i was not going to get into the planes --OH WELL so much for self control.Mike B.

Oh well, who needs self control mate, thats for Monks!:wink2:

Yes have to be very careful, have to many series already on the go spanning AE to WW11, I too see a film and my thoughts immediately wander on how I could duplicate a scene in miniatures, only problem with that could be talking thousands of dollars. Very addictive this hobby. Cheers, Robin.

Hey Robin, yep Zulu,Waterloo,Charge of the Light Brigade, all these get me wondering about other conflicts.

Rob

 

[PanzerAce1944]

OK....the TV programs,books, veterans accounts are all inaccurate....we still need a new freshly done T-34.

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

I think if you read about how the tank crews of the Tigers learned how to manipulate the traverse of the tank it was not as slow as has been stated. Bobby Woll discussed this percieved weakness and showed how they overcome it.

I have read of the sherman ramming the konigstiger in normandy but, as said, its a myth, heavily fortified by the russians that ramming was used at Kursk or, elsewhere. Divisional reports and after action reports dispute actual tank crews who said they had done such an act. After Kursk russian propaganda had a field day of heroic soviet soldiers ramming tanks and, one report where a soviet attacked a tiger with a pistol and a trench shovel!!!!!

Wonder what the odds would be for guessing when a T-34 will be released?? I say april.
Mitch

 

[Rob]

Rob...

I think if you read about how the tank crews of the Tigers learned how to manipulate the traverse of the tank it was not as slow as has been stated. Bobby Woll discussed this percieved weakness and showed how they overcome it.

I have read of the sherman ramming the konigstiger in normandy but, as said, its a myth, heavily fortified by the russians that ramming was used at Kursk or, elsewhere. Divisional reports and after action reports dispute actual tank crews who said they had done such an act. After Kursk russian propaganda had a field day of heroic soviet soldiers ramming tanks and, one report where a soviet attacked a tiger with a pistol and a trench shovel!!!!!
Mitch

As I said Mich, not on the scale suggested but I do not either believe no Russian Tanks at Kursk got anywhere near enough to do this, I don't think the vet I talked to was lying myself, his was not a heroic look at me story in any way at all ,he was an old man remembering . I'm also sure the Germans didn't want anyone to believe the Russians would be brave enough to do it, them being 'subhuman' and all. Never heard of a Sherman ramming a Konigstiger though, I think if I'd have been in that position I'd have done it..if I was piloting the Queen Mary that is!:wink2:^&grin

As for the Tiger's traverse, again perhaps not as slow as often stated, but it was slower than some, and it must have been slow enough for the Brits to use their little ruse with the Shermans, because this actually worked. Mind you , you would not want to be in the decoy would you!{eek3} The arrival of the 17pdr was a huge shock to the Germans and I think it was hard for them (and to vets possibly still to this day) to accept that at last a Sherman could take out a their legendary Tiger at decent ranges, the loss of Mr Wittman in such a case must have been a loud knock on the door for the Jerries, the evolution of Tanks in WW2 was at incredible speed wasn't it.^&cool

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

OK....the TV programs,books, veterans accounts are all inaccurate....we still need a new freshly done T-34.

Not all the books, tv programs are inaccurate. But if you look at the stats on the T-34 including the relatively soft turret armour and the huge kill ratio the better (Pz. IV, Panther, Tiger) German tanks had against it, it would be clear.

And I agree, we need a T-34/76 - there hasn't been one other than the German captured one for a long time.

Terry

 

[PanzerAce1944]

My fingers are crossed for a winter T34/85 or late war version entering the streets of Berlin. Then my K&C Volksturm will have something to shoot all of those panzerfausts at. {sm3}

 

[Rob]

My fingers are crossed for a winter T34/85 or late war version entering the streets of Berlin. Then my K&C Volksturm will have something to shoot all of those panzerfausts at. {sm3}

Have to second that, Whitewashed T34/85 would be very welcome{bravo}}

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

As I said Mich, not on the scale suggested but I do not either believe no Russian Tanks at Kursk got anywhere near enough to do this, I don't think the vet I talked to was lying myself, his was not a heroic look at me story in any way at all ,he was an old man remembering . I'm also sure the Germans didn't want anyone to believe the Russians would be brave enough to do it, them being 'subhuman' and all. Never heard of a Sherman ramming a Konigstiger though, I think if I'd have been in that position I'd have done it..if I was piloting the Queen Mary that is!:wink2:^&grin

As for the Tiger's traverse, again perhaps not as slow as often stated, but it was slower than some, and it must have been slow enough for the Brits to use their little ruse with the Shermans, because this actually worked. Mind you , you would not want to be in the decoy would you!{eek3} The arrival of the 17pdr was a huge shock to the Germans and I think it was hard for them (and to vets possibly still to this day) to accept that at last a Sherman could take out a their legendary Tiger at decent ranges, the loss of Mr Wittman in such a case must have been a loud knock on the door for the Jerries, the evolution of Tanks in WW2 was at incredible speed wasn't it.^&cool

Rob

The decoy method - I wonder how often it was used? Because the theory was 3 Shermans would sacrifice themselves to allow the 4th Sherman to get a close in rear shot on the Tiger. That theoretical strategy was American - no firefly. The British doctrine was to keep the firefly back so it could use it's gun at long range. The regular Shermans were to flush out German tank positions after which the firefly would fire on that position, or more likely the tanks would call in an artillery barage from the 25 pdr Priests.

As for Wittmann, his tank was struck from the rear at close range and no one knows if the shot was from a 75mm or a 17 pdr.

Terry

 

[BHogan]

I really hope we get a T-34 rather than a KV-1 or KV-2 with the new Russians. It is just such an iconic Russian vehicle.

 

[Rob]

The decoy method - I wonder how often it was used? Because the theory was 3 Shermans would sacrifice themselves to allow the 4th Sherman to get a close in rear shot on the Tiger. That theoretical strategy was American - no firefly. The British doctrine was to keep the firefly back so it could use it's gun at long range. The regular Shermans were to flush out German tank positions after which the firefly would fire on that position, or more likely the tanks would call in an artillery barage from the 25 pdr Priests.

As for Wittmann, his tank was struck from the rear at close range and no one knows if the shot was from a 75mm or a 17 pdr.

Terry

Bovington Tank museum did their own investigation and are now i believe satisfied the shot came from the 17 pdr of the Firefly containing gunner Joe Ekin which was hidden in an orchard as Wittmans tanks went by.

The Decoy strategy was used by the Brits in Normandy I believe as well , regular Shermans were used to attract the attention of the German AFV, and whilst the Firefly would have course hung back a little so as not to be first target, still in range with its 17pdr. It worked but was controversial at the time (and still debated today)

Rob

 

[Mitch]

I remember reading a paper from an investigation that it was the canadians who actually got him from the side. It was done as a documentary can't recal the guys name who conducted the investigation but, there was some very good forensic evaluation of the evidence.

As for the sherman ramming the Konigstiger it happened during Goodwood and, was an Irish guy again, can't recal his name think it was on the 18th July from memory
Mitch

 

[Rob]

I remember reading a paper from an investigation that it was the canadians who actually got him from the side. It was done as a documentary can't recal the guys name who conducted the investigation but, there was some very good forensic evaluation of the evidence.

As for the sherman ramming the Konigstiger it happened during Goodwood and, was an Irish guy again, can't recal his name think it was on the 18th July from memory
Mitch

Mitch Yes it was for a while, and then it was Typhoons, but recently both of these accounts have been discredited after Joe Ekin's position was studied, he did not even know who he'd killed that day and did not for many years after. He'd only fire about three rounds in anger when he opened fire on Wittman, nice irony, top ace taken out by novice, but that 17pdr was an awesome gun^&cool

Rob

 

[larso]

I had a detailed plan for the next year to get Conte's N/W Frontier, CS's Romans/Celts and various JJ and K & C to fill some gaps. Then I saw the new Crusaders in this months despatch and I've redone everything to get back into those. So yes, it appears I am easily swayed!