1st Legion's New Stug (1 Viewer)

[Steven Chong]

I purchased one of the 1st Legion grey Stug tanks at the Chicago Show, and discussed the merits of this tank with other collectors during the show, so I believe I can speak about the varying opinions of this piece.

When picked up, the 1st Legion Stug is very, very light when compared to vehicles produced by other manufacturers, and very similar to the weight of a FOV tank -- everyone mentioned this fact. It is made from a light plastic with photo etched detail pieces added like fan grills. Many of the detail pieces like shovels are separately added. The flexible plastic tracks of the grey Stug have the winterketten added, which I believe is a first in this industry. The painting is almost "factory fresh" like a K&C vehicle with a very light dusting as weathering.

Several collectors thought the lack of heft or weight and the fact that the 1st Legion Stug was almost entirely "plastic" detracted from the preceived worth of this tank, concluding the piece was not worth $299. Many people have the subjective perception that the heavier something is, the more valuable it is. My first comment to George was these tanks would be very cheap to ship given the light weight. However, I ultimately purchased one of these tanks because I liked the look and especially the winterketten feature.

The 1st Legion WWII tank figures are much smaller when placed next to similar standing K&C WWII figures. It is more than the difference in height, with all the proportions (head, chest, arms and legs) and equipment (helmet, gun, etc.) much smaller on the 1st Legion figures. I own over 100 1st Legion Napoleonics, so forum members should not think I have a bias for other manufacturers; but to my eye, the added height to the 1st Legion WWII figures comes from stretching the legs without a proportionate adjustment to the trunk and head of the figure. Again, I want to emphasize this is my personal opinion, as I note several collectors greatly admire these figures.

Ultimately, collect what you like.

 

[nasirkasmani]

thanks for the report steven. i'll be getting my tanned stug and tank riders soon, and i can't wait to hold them in my hands, admire and inspect them. sincerely.

 

[FirstLegion]

I purchased one of the 1st Legion grey Stug tanks at the Chicago Show, and discussed the merits of this tank with other collectors during the show, so I believe I can speak about the varying opinions of this piece.

When picked up, the 1st Legion Stug is very, very light when compared to vehicles produced by other manufacturers, and very similar to the weight of a FOV tank -- everyone mentioned this fact. It is made from a light plastic with photo etched detail pieces added like fan grills. Many of the detail pieces like shovels are separately added. The flexible plastic tracks of the grey Stug have the winterketten added, which I believe is a first in this industry. The painting is almost "factory fresh" like a K&C vehicle with a very light dusting as weathering.

Several collectors thought the lack of heft or weight and the fact that the 1st Legion Stug was almost entirely "plastic" detracted from the preceived worth of this tank, concluding the piece was not worth $299. Many people have the subjective perception that the heavier something is, the more valuable it is. My first comment to George was these tanks would be very cheap to ship given the light weight. However, I ultimately purchased one of these tanks because I liked the look and especially the winterketten feature.

The 1st Legion WWII tank figures are much smaller when placed next to similar standing K&C WWII figures. It is more than the difference in height, with all the proportions (head, chest, arms and legs) and equipment (helmet, gun, etc.) much smaller on the 1st Legion figures. I own over 100 1st Legion Napoleonics, so forum members should not think I have a bias for other manufacturers; but to my eye, the added height to the 1st Legion WWII figures comes from stretching the legs without a proportionate adjustment to the trunk and head of the figure. Again, I want to emphasize this is my personal opinion, as I note several collectors greatly admire these figures.

Ultimately, collect what you like.

Thanks for your thoughtful review. I just thought I would make a few comments as there are apparently some misconceptions on materials. A few other comments as well.

1. Materials - only the tracks and bogey/fly wheels are plastic (two different types, ABS and PVC). The rest of the tank is resin with some metal parts and some photo etched parts. Making the tracks this way was the only way we could figure out how to produce them with extremaly accurate parts that are true to scale, finely detailed, assemble correctly, won't break or fall apart, and actually look like a tanks tracks. You yourself have pointed out Steve that some other companies have tried to make detailed track and wheel setups and have had issues with assembly. This is probably because you can't get fully accurate parts, particularly circles, with material such as polystone and metal as the molds compress. Making steel injection molds, a process with is extremely expensive and hence why it's seldom if ever used on something with a production run limited to only a few hundred pieces, was the solution to producing extremely accurate parts that would be stronger than just resin. As for the tracks themselves, when made in metal or polystone they are invariably artificially thickened. We don't like that result. Look at the image below and see how thin the tracks really are. Personally, we feel the track setup on our stug is the most realistic of any 1/30th tank ever produced. The Ostketten version would probalby have been near impossible with any other material as the blades are so thin and hence why you've never seen one before.


2. Crew Figures - I really don't understand the comments about the crew. The uniform of a Stug crew consists of high waisted baggy pants and a fitted jacket. It's the belt being so high coupled with the tight fit of the jacket and the oversized baggy pants that could be throwing you guys off. We personally feel the crew figures are excellent sculpts. See this image and you'll see what we're talking about (not the best image, but should give you an idea!) See how high the belt is? It's up over his belly button.

3. Painting - I strongly disagree that the painting is factory fresh. Is it just me or are you missing all of the shadows and highlights as each square section and each recessed hatch outline is meticulously shaded around the edges and highlighted in the center. Water stains and scratches have been added abundantly as well. I have one sitting right here in front of me and I think the painting is excellent and far from factory fresh. I think it's just a dfferent (and extremely time consuming) painting method than what is typical on vehicles from other companies. It's more of a modelling painting method. I guess we'll wait to see what other folks have to say when they receive theirs...

4. Weight - we knew this would be a possible issue as the market is used to polystone which is absurdly heavy. We could have artficially made the tank heavier, but that would ony result in likely increased damage during shipping as well as added shipping costs, particularly for our international customers. Suffice it to say, we feel it's a good thing that it's light. It's just that it might take some getting used to. Strange thing to me is that I dont think it's that light at all, but then again, I'm not lugging polystone around either (and yes, I know it's light relative to tanks other companies make, but I don't have any of those and this is all I have and as such it feels normal to me!)

5. Scale - This really is the last time I'm going to talk about this! The Stug is 1/30th scale, the crew is 1/30th scale. Steve, you have the tank and crew there, measure them. Put it next to another Stug in your collection - I'd be curious to hear about how it is size wise next to other "1/30th" vehicles. The figures may be smaller than K&C figures, but they're 1/30th scale. If K&C figures are larger, so be it. I've always said ours are stylistically different in any case. But our figures and stug are in scale with each other and that's really all that matters.

In the end, as you say, customers should buy what they like. Please also don't take this as discounting your review in anyway. I just believe that when you're used to looking at one thing for so long it might take some time to get used to looking at something else, particularly in areas such as scale. Even if you look at something hopelessly out of scale for long enough, it ends up becoming the percieved reality. There are a few other forum members who purchased early release stugs from us and should have them soon and I'll be curious to hear what they have to say about them as well.

Finally, if all else fails, at least the gun can be raised and lowered and the crew are full bodied figures, both of which should at least earn us some style points!

Regards,

Matt

 

[maddadicus]

Thanks for your thoughtful review. I just thought I would make a few comments as there are apparently some misconceptions on materials. A few other comments as well.

1. Materials - only the tracks and bogey/fly wheels are plastic (two different types, ABS and PVC). The rest of the tank is resin with some metal parts and some photo etched parts. Making the tracks this way was the only way we could figure out how to produce them with extremaly accurate parts that are true to scale, finely detailed, assemble correctly, won't break or fall apart, and actually look like a tanks tracks. You yourself have pointed out Steve that some other companies have tried to make detailed track and wheel setups and have had issues with assembly. This is probably because you can't get fully accurate parts, particularly circles, with material such as polystone and metal as the molds compress. Making steel injection molds, a process with is extremely expensive and hence why it's seldom if ever used on something with a production run limited to only a few hundred pieces, was the solution to producing extremely accurate parts that would be stronger than just resin. As for the tracks themselves, when made in metal or polystone they are invariably artificially thickened. We don't like that result. Look at the image below and see how thin the tracks really are. Personally, we feel the track setup on our stug is the most realistic of any 1/30th tank ever produced. The Ostketten version would probalby have been near impossible with any other material as the blades are so thin and hence why you've never seen one before.


2. Crew Figures - I really don't understand the comments about the crew. The uniform of a Stug crew consists of high waisted baggy pants and a fitted jacket. It's the belt being so high coupled with the tight fit of the jacket and the oversized baggy pants that could be throwing you guys off. We personally feel the crew figures are excellent sculpts. See this image and you'll see what we're talking about (not the best image, but should give you an idea!) See how high the belt is? It's up over his belly button.

3. Painting - I strongly disagree that the painting is factory fresh. Is it just me or are you missing all of the shadows and highlights as each square section and each recessed hatch outline is meticulously shaded around the edges and highlighted in the center. Water stains and scratches have been added abundantly as well. I have one sitting right here in front of me and I think the painting is excellent and far from factory fresh. I think it's just a dfferent (and extremely time consuming) painting method than what is typical on vehicles from other companies. It's more of a modelling painting method. I guess we'll wait to see what other folks have to say when they receive theirs...

4. Weight - we knew this would be a possible issue as the market is used to polystone which is absurdly heavy. We could have artficially made the tank heavier, but that would ony result in likely increased damage during shipping as well as added shipping costs, particularly for our international customers. Suffice it to say, we feel it's a good thing that it's light. It's just that it might take some getting used to. Strange thing to me is that I dont think it's that light at all, but then again, I'm not lugging polystone around either (and yes, I know it's light relative to tanks other companies make, but I don't have any of those and this is all I have and as such it feels normal to me!)

5. Scale - This really is the last time I'm going to talk about this! The Stug is 1/30th scale, the crew is 1/30th scale. Steve, you have the tank and crew there, measure them. Put it next to another Stug in your collection - I'd be curious to hear about how it is size wise next to other "1/30th" vehicles. The figures may be smaller than K&C figures, but they're 1/30th scale. If K&C figures are larger, so be it. I've always said ours are stylistically different in any case. But our figures and stug are in scale with each other and that's really all that matters.

In the end, as you say, customers should buy what they like. Please also don't take this as discounting your review in anyway. I just believe that when you're used to looking at one thing for so long it might take some time to get used to looking at something else, particularly in areas such as scale. Even if you look at something hopelessly out of scale for long enough, it ends up becoming the percieved reality. There are a few other forum members who purchased early release stugs from us and should have them soon and I'll be curious to hear what they have to say about them as well.

Finally, if all else fails, at least the gun can be raised and lowered and the crew are full bodied figures, both of which should at least earn us some style points!

Regards,

Matt

I. too, would love to see the photo comparison between mfg. vehicles. K/C figures have always been oversized to their vehicles various, depends on the run, scale. I have K/C's last Stuart, which turned out to be 1/32 and the commander figure is too large. As to scale, every mfg. uses their own means of figuring it out and then producing their version of it. What has always mattered to me is the actual, physical size of mfg. A figure against mfg. B figure. The same goes for the vehicle. It may be that K/C has had it all wrong as to real 1/30 scale from the beginning. Does not make me feel better, but it does allow me to look at other mfg.'s offerings in a new light..Michael

 

[IXEC]

Matt thanks for the real life Stug picture.

Figarti armor is also " light " in weight. Myself I have no problems with this being the case.

I'm sure the scale issue will soon be resolved when other's here review their Stug's.

I really like the picture Matt provided. I have all of the Dragon-Models 1/35 scale German WW II rail-car series of plastic models . Matt's pictured Stug is sitting on one of the flat-cars that's in this Dragon-Models Series. I'm going to place my FL Stug on my Dragon flat-car when I get it. I also have a 1/35 Tamiya Stug model.

Now I know that 1/35 in NOT 1/30, but it will be interesting to see the scale range difference, using these 1/35 Dragon / Tamiya plastic model kits and the 1/30, First Legion Stug

 

[Gideon]

With regard to weight, K&C early wood vehicles and the HECO range were all extremely light weight and quite costly when new, never mind now.

I never understood why so many people have that idea of something well done having to be heavy. Like they feel as if they're being cheated or skimped on in some way.

The only area I would agree with weight is in diecast cars and trucks. From childhood, Dinky, Matchbox, Corgi and Ertl made the weight a genuine part of the quality. This is something really very different.

 

[Blowtorch]

Many people have the subjective perception that the heavier something is, the more valuable it is.

Well I guess there ain't too many physicists & engineers in this hobby. State of the art materials = highest performance & lightest weight. You ain't gonna get to Mars without it.

Also, no offense to Steven Chong, but can we have a sticky on this scale issue? It's really getting distracting from more important matters

 

[Warrior]

I never understood why so many people have that idea of something well done having to be heavy. Like they feel as if they're being cheated or skimped on in some way.

As usual, Gideon hits the nail square on the head.

I used to sell a range of buildings from a now defunct company called B & T that were made out of wood, plaster and particle board. The result was they were very heavy, cost a fortune to ship and more times than not, showed up in pieces no matter how carefully I packed them.

I started recently selling some foam buildings made by one of the forum members, Canuck. They are vey well done, but when a customer picks them up, they always comment "Gee are those light!!" puts it down and says "they are too expensive".

The biggest complaint about both versions of the Stug was how "light" they were. I guess maybe Matt should charge by the pound on the tanks.

Rick from Figarti came by my rooms to see the tank and was very impressed, he said the technology is state of the art and cutting edge, he was very impressed with the tanks.

Despite what people have said 9,000 times, these tanks are not made of plastic, I really wish that would stop as it is inaccurate.

Others clearly are hung up on the weight issue; once it's in the display or diorama, I really don't see what the fuss is, but what do I know.........

 

[tdubel]

We all have our opinions and we buy what we like, that really is the bottom line here. One man's junk, another's treasure.

I think there was a comment made "that if this isn't the best vehicle in 1/30 scale, I will eat my hat".

For me, it is not the best, but that is my opinion, to those that buy it, enjoy it!

As for weight, I should clarify that even though this was made with best technology, material, etc, its not for me, I like the heavier metal type vehciles, hence I have a collection of Fusilier/Tommy Atkins tanks, armor, etc. Again, my preference.

TD

 

[SteveDavid]

Thank you. I am sure that I will enjoy these heavylight tanks...these and all those that will be made in the future.

I must be a person of extremely bad taste that I like FL's offerings! That or I have not enough years on my back to value enough the heavyheavyweights of others. There you go...personally I prefer to buy this junk than other manufacturer's treasures...

What is strange though: why does anything done by someone else than K&C get battered to death, analysed to death how accurate etc it is whereas with K&C historically incorrect facts on vehicles and other are forgiven? Two worlds two measures I guess.

FL must have something though to create such 'agressions'...maybe because they don't get everything that wrong, do they?

And now Chinese post, just get me these overpriced plastic tanks, it's about time!

 

[Wraith]

What is strange though: why does anything done by someone else than K&C get battered to death, analysed to death how accurate etc it is whereas with K&C historically incorrect facts on vehicles and other are forgiven? Two worlds two measured I guess.

I think pretty much all of the manufacturers get hammered, K&C included.

Always plenty of comments banded around: First Legion are too light, K&C are factually incorrect, Figarti are too fragile, CS have hinges which are too big, K&C have incorrect markings, First Legion are plastic (I know - resin ), Figarti are too weathered, CS aren't weathered enough, all are the wrong / right / 54mm / 60mm / 70mm scale(delete as appropriate), etc, etc....

There are some who are prepared to fault whatever comes out and I suppose this forum provides an outlet for those views.

I'm just glad we've got all of these options available to us, so we, the collector, can make the choices that suit us as individuals.

 

[SteveDavid]

Then it must be a language thing, as I see that a bit differently. I feel that some could produce a piece of 'pouh' and people would get excited and orgasmic over it.

I agree, as it collector I am happy that new firms like FL joined the race. Of course it also means that hardcore collectors' habits take time to be changed.

Anyway I have said enough on this now.

 

[Rob]

I think pretty much all of the manufacturers get hammered, K&C included.

Always plenty of comments banded around: First Legion are too light, K&C are factually incorrect, Figarti are too fragile, CS have hinges which are too big, K&C have incorrect markings, First Legion are plastic (I know - resin ), Figarti are too weathered, CS aren't weathered enough, all are the wrong / right / 54mm / 60mm / 70mm scale(delete as appropriate), etc, etc....

There are some who are prepared to fault whatever comes out and I suppose this forum provides an outlet for those views.

I'm just glad we've got all of these options available to us, so we, the collector, can make the choices that suit us as individuals.

Spot on Simon,great post.Almost every producer gets bouquets and brickbats,no company is immune.We are all free to spend our dosh however we please,and as Lord Wraith says we benefit from a wide choice of producers.

I look forward to getting my first glimpse of the Stug in a little under 8 weeks time....get your credit card ready Simon

Rob

 

[Wraith]

I agree, as it collector I am happy that new firms like FL joined the race. Of course it also means that hardcore collectors' habits take time to be changed.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Steve. New kid on the block, with great sculpts and a fantastic paint job at a slightly increased price, but with their own style, material (vehicle wise) and at a scale difference to other manufacturers. Perhaps going to take a little time to see the change.

 

[Rob]

Does anyone know how the Stug is size wise against other producers AFV?'s.

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I think pretty much all of the manufacturers get hammered, K&C included.

Always plenty of comments banded around: First Legion are too light, K&C are factually incorrect, Figarti are too fragile, CS have hinges which are too big, K&C have incorrect markings, First Legion are plastic (I know - resin ), Figarti are too weathered, CS aren't weathered enough, all are the wrong / right / 54mm / 60mm / 70mm scale(delete as appropriate), etc, etc....

There are some who are prepared to fault whatever comes out and I suppose this forum provides an outlet for those views.

I'm just glad we've got all of these options available to us, so we, the collector, can make the choices that suit us as individuals.

All of the manufacturers have features some collectors like and features some collectors don't like and it seems that a few collectors take it personally when a manufacturer they like gets criticised but a manufacturer they don't like "gets away" with an error. If a piece has an historical error or has a breakage or quality problem, it is good that it gets posted to help the manufacturers improve their product, improve quality control and improve shipping. It also helps the collectors make a choice to buy or not.

The 6 manufacturers of WW2 matt finish AFVs and figures each occupies different levels of detail and price ranges. Preferences are not debatable because they are just preferences of an individual yet that is what gets most hotly debated for no good result.

Terry

 

[SteveDavid]

Pouh, I don't think that anyone takes anything personal here but to some things (plastic is for 5 year olds) it might be possible to respond?

I don't think you know ALL of the posters here well enough to say whether the one or the other takes things personal or not.

Discussions like these are annoying, boring and I wonder why I am stupid enough to respond?

Ah yes, because I take it personal that someone criticizes my favourite manufacturer...got ya.

 

[Warrior]

I think pretty much all of the manufacturers get hammered, K&C included.

Always plenty of comments banded around: First Legion are too light, K&C are factually incorrect, Figarti are too fragile, CS have hinges which are too big, K&C have incorrect markings, First Legion are plastic (I know - resin ), Figarti are too weathered, CS aren't weathered enough, all are the wrong / right / 54mm / 60mm / 70mm scale(delete as appropriate), etc, etc....

There are some who are prepared to fault whatever comes out and I suppose this forum provides an outlet for those views.

I'm just glad we've got all of these options available to us, so we, the collector, can make the choices that suit us as individuals.

Great points all around Simon.

As far as K & C being immune to getting hammered SteveDavid; all I heard for two days at the Chicago show was the maps that come with the bomb plot set are in English and are WWI maps, not "Gee, what a terrific set that is, the addons are a nice touch, I really like the two new 251/22's, those new Crusaders are wonderful, did you see the new submarine and the German naval figures, aren't they nice?".................nope, the topic of conversation was about two maps.

Two tiny pieces of paper........................

 

[SteveDavid]

And still 65% of your sales was K&C...imagine what this would have been without these critics?!

 

[Vezzolf]

I am looking forward to this Stug Tank.....I don't mind it being a little lighter than polystone......I hope that it approximates the weight of FOV resin tanks or slightly heavier.......The detail and the painting look excellent in the photos....I like subtle weathering of models......I am sure it will be a good product......and that many on this forum will be surprised at the quaility and realism.......Best regards