70th Anniversary of EL Alamein (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Today ( services are taking place out there as I write this)we begin remembering the 70th Anniversary of a War turning battle that was El Alamein. Under the command of Montgomery the 8th Army with all its allied and commonwealth troops began driving the much feared Rommel from North Africa . It was a pivotal battle that the great Winston Churchill described as the ' End of the beginning ' . By the end of the battle the Afrika Corp was in full flight.Here's to the memory of all the those who fought and died in that battle, to their comrades and also to Montgomery.

R.I.P

Rob

 

[TomNT]

Thanks for starting this thread Rob. We should always remember this battle not only that it was the turning point of the war for the Allies, but for the loss and sacrifice of the Commonwealth troops that fought in this campaign. I was watching on the news about some Aussie diggers that made the pilgrimage to El Alamien to pay their respects to their fallen comrades and it was very touching.

Lest We Forget

Tom

 

[Mitch]

Hitlers second big kicking. You think he would have realised the writing was on the wall for him!!! Funnily enough I have just watched fox hole in cairo based on true facts behind the role behind the line troops played in the total victory of the 8th army.
Mitch

 

[Poppo]

Yes, El Alamein was a pivotal battle in Africa that Rommel could not have won, anyway.

Rommel could reach El Alamein with few tanks and the support of the italian infantry( bad organized and bad armed but happy to have such a great commander as Rommel was).
The german general didn' t receive any supplies because Hitler considered Africa as a very secondary front and both Hitler and Mussolini took decisions according political reasons instead of military ones. The supplies coming from Italy were almost sistematically sunk by the british navy as they had decifred " enigma" german secret message coding so that they waited in the sea for the italian ships with stronger forces and sunk them( wrongly for years Italian navy generals have been accused of betraying their country selling informations to UK).
So Rommel joined El Alamein with exausted forces, and had no choice that digging the earth waiting for reinforcements, supplies , gasoline that never arrived. They even lacked of food and water. Let' s remember that german-italian armies could fight stealing british materials ( trucks, jeeps, food,weapons, uniforms).

So El Alamein was the first battle of " MATERIALS" in ww2. The first war of the "riches" against a war of the "poors": a very heavy air force bombings preparation destroying the axes lines and their sophisticated minefields protection , then several huge tank attacks to destroy the survivors. Instead of this rain of fire and steel italians and germans could hold the lines for some days after being obliged to retreat.

Both allies and axes forces fought with braveness

 

[Rob]

Yes, El Alamein was a pivotal battle in Africa that Rommel could not have won, anyway.

Rommel could reach El Alamein with few tanks and the support of the italian infantry( bad organized and bad armed but happy to have such a great commander as Rommel was).
The german general didn' t receive any supplies because Hitler considered Africa as a very secondary front and both Hitler and Mussolini took decisions according political reasons instead of military ones. The supplies coming from Italy were almost sistematically sunk by the british navy as they had decifred " enigma" german secret message coding so that they waited in the sea for the italian ships with stronger forces and sunk them( wrongly for years Italian navy generals have been accused of betraying their country selling informations to UK).
So Rommel joined El Alamein with exausted forces, and had no choice that to dig the earth waiting for reinforcements, supplies , gasoline that never arrived. They even lacked of food and water. Let' s remember that german-italian armies could fight stealing british materials ( trucks, jeeps, food,weapons, uniforms).

So El Alamein was the first battle of " MATERIALS" in ww2. The first war of the "riches" against a war of the "poors": a very heavy air force bombings preparation destroying the axes lines and their sophisticated minefields protection , then several huge tank attacks to destroy the survivors. Instead of this rain of fire and steel italians and germans could hold the lines for some days after being obliged to retreat.

Both allies and axes forces fought with braveness

Good post Poppo, thanks for posting.

Yes the code breakers at Bletchley Park, The Royal Navy and the RAF all played there part in destroying The Afrika Korp, but at the end of the day the Tommies , Anzacs, South Africans and Free French still had to get out of their foxholes go through the minefields and drive the enemy back. Twelve days of hard fighting lay ahead as the mighty Rommel got beaten and driven back.

The allied victory not only destroyed the Rommel myth but gave a huge boost to the folks back on the home front who had endured much bombing, rationing and black outs since the start of the war, no surprise that when this famous victory was confirmed church bells rang out across the country here in the UK.

My deepest respects to all those who fought there , your sacrifice will never be forgotten.



Rob

 

[OzDigger]

Thanks for starting this thread Rob. We should always remember this battle not only that it was the turning point of the war for the Allies, but for the loss and sacrifice of the Commonwealth troops that fought in this campaign. I was watching on the news about some Aussie diggers that made the pilgrimage to El Alamien to pay their respects to their fallen comrades and it was very touching.

Lest We Forget

Tom

Tom, I also caught that news report about the Aussie Diggers in El Alamien:

Here's some info about the 9th (Australian) Division involvement: "

At the Second Battle of El Alamein, the 9th Division was given responsibility for clearing a corridor through the German and Italian forces in the North and threatening to cut off those between the coastal road and the sea. In the initial assault the division hacked its way through the enemy defences but failed to clear the minefields. However, as the British attack faltered, the main effort switched to the 9th Division, which punched a massive dent into the German and Italian position over the next five days at great cost, "crumbling" the Afrika Korps in the process, and ultimately forcing Rommel to retreat. "I am quite certain," Leese informed Morshead, that this breakout was made possible by Homeric fighting over your divisional sector." During the El Alamein Campaign, the 9th Division suffered 22% of the British Eighth Army's casualties; 1,177 Australians were killed, while 3,629 were wounded, 795 were captured and 193 were missing".


"It may almost be said, Before Alamein we never had a victory. After Alamein we never had a defeat."

—Winston Churchill

 

[Rob]

Thanks for starting this thread Rob. We should always remember this battle not only that it was the turning point of the war for the Allies, but for the loss and sacrifice of the Commonwealth troops that fought in this campaign. I was watching on the news about some Aussie diggers that made the pilgrimage to El Alamien to pay their respects to their fallen comrades and it was very touching.

Lest We Forget

Tom

My pleasure Tom, always happy to salute all allies or commonwealth countries that took part in victory in both Wars my friend, no xenophobia or racism this end mate.

Here's a BBC report from this morning
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20014747

Rob

 

[TomNT]

My pleasure Tom, always happy to salute all allies or commonwealth countries that took part in victory in both Wars my friend, no xenophobia or racism this end mate.

Here's a BBC report from this morning
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-20014747

Rob

No worries Rob, I probably should have included British and Commonwealth troops in my post but i was actually thinking all countries (including Britain) when i used the word Commonwealth only.

Interesting to see some old AFV's (and aircraft by the look of it) preserved at El Alamein. I could see a Sherman, Priest and a Crusader tank in the clip so i am wondering what else they have there.

Tom

 

[Rob]

No worries Rob, I probably should have included British and Commonwealth troops in my post but i was actually thinking all countries (including Britain) when i used the word Commonwealth only.

Interesting to see some old AFV's (and aircraft by the look of it) preserved at El Alamein. I could see a Sherman, Priest and a Crusader tank in the clip so i am wondering what else they have there.

Tom

Tom,

My friend I knew that's just what you meant, you've only ever been respectful to other countries whilst being rightly proud of how well your country has fought in both Wars, you are one of the gentleman on this forum{bravo}}

They have a huge amount of armour and guns there Tom, there are German 88's, Prime movers, as well as a wealth of allied armour. From the clip it looks like there are many Aussie vets from Alamein there today, sadly there is only one remaining Brit who is able to attend. God bless all of them.

Rob

 

[Rob]

Tom, if you google/search Alamein museum images they have quite a few pics of their Tanks/planes/artillery.

Rob

 

[TomNT]

Tom, if you google/search Alamein museum images they have quite a few pics of their Tanks/planes/artillery.

Rob

Thanks Rob, they do have a bit there although it looks like i got it wrong with the tracked artillery piece, i thought it was a Priest at first glance but it looks like something else.

Tom

 

[Mitch]

Its often overlooked how big a victory this battle actually was. The germans actually lost bigger than they did at Stalingrad yet that battle actually gets the big highlights. Strategically If they had not been beaten and were allowed to stay in that theatre and, consolodate, even taking cairo and getting the egyptians to side fully and remove the british the results would have been dramatic. restrictions in med actions like sicilly and other attacks on what churchill called the soft underbelly of the germans would not have taken place. In terms of morale and propaganda they were probably even greater for the brits and much was gained from the victory and the feel good factor on the home front.
Mitch

 

[TomNT]

Tom,

My friend I knew that's just what you meant, you've only ever been respectful to other countries whilst being rightly proud of how well your country has fought in both Wars, you are one of the gentleman on this forum{bravo}}

They have a huge amount of armour and guns there Tom, there are German 88's, Prime movers, as well as a wealth of allied armour. From the clip it looks like there are many Aussie vets from Alamein there today, sadly there is only one remaining Brit who is able to attend. God bless all of them.

Rob

No worries mate and that is sad that there is only one Brit left, but the good thing about these remembrance days is, that we never forget our fallen troops and the heroic deeds they did back then.

Tom

 

[Poppo]

Its often overlooked how big a victory this battle actually was. The germans actually lost bigger than they did at Stalingrad yet that battle actually gets the big highlights. Strategically If they had not been beaten and were allowed to stay in that theatre and, consolodate, even taking cairo and getting the egyptians to side fully and remove the british the results would have been dramatic. restrictions in med actions like sicilly and other attacks on what churchill called the soft underbelly of the germans would not have taken place. In terms of morale and propaganda they were probably even greater for the brits and much was gained from the victory and the feel good factor on the home front.
Mitch

How can you say that the germans lost bigger at El Alamein than they did at Stalingrad???

The total number of casualties in the african theatre, from the beginning till the german surrender in Tunisia, all battles included, adding germans, allies, italians, french is little more than 100 000.
In Stalingrad battle the total number of casualties was about 700 000.

For Hitler the african front was very secondary as he gave no importance to lands outside Europe( he considered it such a colonial campaign)and he sent the "afrika korps" just to help the italian retiring army which was losing against the brits.

That' s why Hitler sent very little troops to Africa and Rommel had to complain and ask for supplies during all the campaign.
The possibility for the germans to reach the Caire, the Suez channel, Palestine, and attack the brits in India, well, this is more the field of science fiction.
The evidence that Churchill was wrong and underestimated "the soft underbelly of the germans" is the failure of the" italian campaign": allies put almost 2 years to liberate Italy and were obliged to make the operation "Overlord" in Normandy to hurry up.

All this is not comparable to the titanic fightings in Stalingrad and the german psychological and material disaster after that.

Sure for the brits the El Alamein victory was a real turning point of the war.

I understand that as a brit you tend to grow up the importance of battles fought by your country, but facts and numbers are there....

 

[Mitch]

Poppo...

I don't think I said El Alamein alone was a bigger defeat so, I should have clarified it more clearly in my post. What I said was that El Alamein was a massive defeat for the Axis ground forces and from that the consequences were severe. The germans recovered from Stalingrad to go on the offensive again in russian they did not recover from Africa or anywhere in that area.

The African campaign was IMO and from everything I have read from serious authors disputes this theatre was a side show though, it has become a popular myth in many accounts. The area was vital to the brits hence the reason for the german troops to assist in what the Italians whofully could not do. Rommel and Arnim knew its importance also. If one looks closely at what the germans tried to supply to the troops logistically it was huge. The RAF and RN stopped the armies on the continent from having a substantial amount of supplies.

If this was a side show one then has to ask why after the defeat at El Alamein did Hitler deploy yet another field armie into theatre? Although you quoted figures for the one battle I was looking at the impact of the defeat at alamein and its future consequences.

Some side show when you by May 1943 have lost three field armies and 620,000 men with some 240,000 highly trained troops going into the bag. The theatre was vital and, if the germans had not been beaten then the regions oil and other regional assets were german. This would have limited the importance of russian oilfields and may have not resulted in Stalingrad. I think you were looking at my post from a micro level whilst I meant it in terms of a macro level.
Mitch

 

[Louis Badolato]

Interesting discussion. The only thing I have to add is a massive thank you to all the Allied military personnel whose sacrifices drove the Nazis from Africa, and eventually, Europe.

 

[OzDigger]

How can you say that the germans lost bigger at El Alamein than they did at Stalingrad???

The total number of casualties in the african theatre, from the beginning till the german surrender in Tunisia, all battles included, adding germans, allies, italians, french is little more than 100 000.
In Stalingrad battle the total number of casualties was about 700 000.

For Hitler the african front was very secondary as he gave no importance to lands outside Europe( he considered it such a colonial campaign)and he sent the "afrika korps" just to help the italian retiring army which was losing against the brits.

That' s why Hitler sent very little troops to Africa and Rommel had to complain and ask for supplies during all the campaign.
The possibility for the germans to reach the Caire, the Suez channel, Palestine, and attack the brits in India, well, this is more the field of science fiction.
The evidence that Churchill was wrong and underestimated "the soft underbelly of the germans" is the failure of the" italian campaign": allies put almost 2 years to liberate Italy and were obliged to make the operation "Overlord" in Normandy to hurry up.

All this is not comparable to the titanic fightings in Stalingrad and the german psychological and material disaster after that.

Sure for the brits the El Alamein victory was a real turning point of the war.

I understand that as a brit you tend to grow up the importance of battles fought by your country, but facts and numbers are there....

All true, the African campaign and invasion via Italy was indeed a side-show comparred to the Eastern Front and subsequent Normandy campaign, it only occured because of Churchill's insistance. The geography of Italy was ideal for defence and the Germans were able to stiffle the allied advance with relatively few resources.

 

[Jack]

Interesting discussion. The only thing I have to add is a massive thank you to all the Allied military personnel whose sacrifices drove the Nazis from Africa, and eventually, Europe.

Just reading a really interesting book called 'The Battle for History: Re-Fighting World War Two' by John Keegan and found something that was completely unexpected . In 1944 Poland had the fourth largest number of men fighting Nazi Germany behing the Soviet Union, the US and the UK. No place on the Security Council for them though!

 

[larso]

"the 9th Division suffered 22% of the British Eighth Army's casualties; 1,177 Australians were killed, while 3,629 were wounded, 795 were captured and 193 were missing". "

I'd always been amazed that so much of the fighting fell on the Australians but I've since read that were 4,000 trained replacements on hand. Whereas several of the other 8th Army divisions were quite weak, even missing a brigade in one case I think.

 

[Rob]

I found this list of casualty percentage on Wiki, not sure if its accurate as you never know on wiki but it sounds about right, it appears Britain paid the highest price with all nations suffering considerable losses, truly an allied effort ;

Britain 58%
Australia 22%
New Zealand 10%
South Africa 6%
India 1%
Other allied nations 3%

Rob