70th anniversary of the Bangka massacre (2 Viewers)

[Rob]

Another anniversary of another inhuman act against unarmed people.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/ex...-Indonesian-island-haunted-by-a-massacre.html

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Rob..

They come thick and fast. Next month the Katyn massacre. Interesting read.
Mitch

Another anniversary of another inhuman act against unarmed people.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/ex...-Indonesian-island-haunted-by-a-massacre.html

Rob

 

[lancer]

The war against the Japanese was a special kind of nightmare for the Allies and especially for Allies unfortunate enough to fall into Japanese hands. It is long past time for the Japanese to acknowledge their responsibility in the many war crimes they committed. The victims of thse crimes and their families deserve nothing less. -- Al

 

[jazzeum]

Rob,

Thanks for bringing this up about remembering our Allied losses, but particularly Australian losses. Hopefully, all agree.

Brad

 

[Mitch]

Al...

Thats sadly probably not going to happen. There have been many calls in this country for the japanese to condemn the way they treat POW's and civillians during WWII and, they either ignore or, side step the issue. I think their war mentality and codes just see it as the way to act in the conditions they faced.

It was not just something particular to the australians which, Brad alludes to!!! many, massacres were perpetrated against other allied troops and civillians by the japanese troops. They are all bad and, IMO no one country faired worse in their treatment from the japanese.

Interestingly, I read articles from Japanese commanders who relatively recently were still proud of what they did for their country during WWII and, still held contempt for allied troops who surrendered. Its probably impossible to change such a mindset
Mitch

The war against the Japanese was a special kind of nightmare for the Allies and especially for Allies unfortunate enough to fall into Japanese hands. It is long past time for the Japanese to acknowledge their responsibility in the many war crimes they committed. The victims of thse crimes and their families deserve nothing less. -- Al

 

[Jack]

I did some research for a school I am associated with into the fate of the Old Boys who enlisted in WW1 and WW2. Well over thousand enlisted in WW2. One hundred and three were killed in WW2, but if you take out those killed in the RAAF and RAF (Bomber Command mainly and many, many training accidents - 74) those executed by the Germans (2), those in the Army who died in accidents or of disease (3) and those who died as POWs of the Japanese or who were executed (11) your chances of survival, statistically were quite good. This might not be as extreme as for the nation as a whole, but it provides at least one reason why the suffering of our POWs still is a sore point. It also raises the interesting point of the relative obscurity of the Bomber Command guys in our national mythology. A tail gunner over Nuremberg in 1943 probably did not have the chance to think "Well - it could be worse - I could be a POW of the Japanese"!

 

[waynepoo]

Al...

Thats sadly probably not going to happen. There have been many calls in this country for the japanese to condemn the way they treat POW's and civillians during WWII and, they either ignore or, side step the issue. I think their war mentality and codes just see it as the way to act in the conditions they faced.

It was not just something particular to the australians which, Brad alludes to!!! many, massacres were perpetrated against other allied troops and civillians by the japanese troops. They are all bad and, IMO no one country faired worse in their treatment from the japanese.

Interestingly, I read articles from Japanese commanders who relatively recently were still proud of what they did for their country during WWII and, still held contempt for allied troops who surrendered. Its probably impossible to change such a mindset
Mitch

My 90 year mum will never, ever forgive the Japanese.
Wayne.

 

[ROUGH RIDER]

I have posted a couple of times before the story of my wife’s Grandfather at the Fall of Singapore. I am not going to retell the story at this time. Suffice to say, let’s not forget about the other massacres and atrocities that happened seventy years ago. We cannot ignore or re-write history as happens so often. We must be the voice of those who cannot tell their stories and ensure the children of our future generations are aware of and understand the enormity of those terrible times. As Albert Einstein said “It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder.”

 

[Rob]

Despite time moving on and healing the wounds of War for many countries, the treatment of Allied prisoners at the hands of the Japenese is such a stain on the character of their country that it may not be erased or forgotten for many decades to come. The quicker they move to fully accept and fully apologize for their crime the better it will be for them.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

Thats just the point they do not see it really as a stain to their country. They also are a proud race and nation and, went through a war with a code which, was not just associated to the military it, permeated throught the whole population. It is why the atomic bombs were dropped as, it would have cost too many allied KIA and wounded as they just did not and do not see our way of thinking.

We had a similar discussion when one of our politicians tried to give a speech onm forgive and forget. For those who went through it some can and some cannot. I don't blame either but, equally, the japanese can say well what about hiroshima and nagasaki??. We have recently spoken about the japanese and my thoughts on jap releases so, before I get called Tojo by someone its not a japanese defence. As has been mentioned all sides committed acts which stain their country and services we have to accept that its not going to happen probably in our lifetime or, at least until all the WWII vets have gone.
Mitch

QUOTE=Rob;460133]Despite time moving on and healing the wounds of War for many countries, the treatment of Allied prisoners at the hands of the Japenese is such a stain on the character of their country that it may not be erased or forgotten for many decades to come. The quicker they move to fully accept and fully apologize for their crime the better it will be for them.

Rob[/QUOTE]

 

[Rob]

Tojo....I mean Mitch^&grin:wink2:,

Yes I do take your point of course, perhaps I should have said that in the eyes of other nations they need to apologize before those nations will forgive and forget. And of course then the question broadens out into the bomb, our bombing of Germany and German bombing of us etc etc. One reason I wrote what I did is that Germany has offered apologies and regrets on several occasions over the years and seems to want to move on. (although I think perhaps it should stop criticizing the allied nations when they hold memorial services etc).So I was wondering if in Japan they get fed up with this running sore re the allied POW's and perhaps might want to move past it, but perhaps they just don't give a ? . I think the dropping of the two A bombs although terrible for the citizens of those two cities was a necessary evil that showed the Japs they were never going to win and therefore brought an end to a conflict that no doubt would have gone on to claim hundreds of thousands of more lives on both sides. We must also remember that Pearl Harbor was a despicable
attack on America and although the casualties were not on the scale of the A bomb sites lets not fool ourselves that if they could have the Japenese would have sunk every single ship and killed every serviceman there that day. They did pay a very high price in the end, but it was of their own making.

Cheers Ivan (I thought I'd give you your next name early Mitch because next we will be talking about Russian atrocities in Berlin!^&grin:wink2

Rob

Rob...

Thats just the point they do not see it really as a stain to their country. They also are a proud race and nation and, went through a war with a code which, was not just associated to the military it, permeated throught the whole population. It is why the atomic bombs were dropped as, it would have cost too many allied KIA and wounded as they just did not and do not see our way of thinking.

We had a similar discussion when one of our politicians tried to give a speech onm forgive and forget. For those who went through it some can and some cannot. I don't blame either but, equally, the japanese can say well what about hiroshima and nagasaki??. We have recently spoken about the japanese and my thoughts on jap releases so, before I get called Tojo by someone its not a japanese defence. As has been mentioned all sides committed acts which stain their country and services we have to accept that its not going to happen probably in our lifetime or, at least until all the WWII vets have gone.
Mitch

QUOTE=Rob;460133]Despite time moving on and healing the wounds of War for many countries, the treatment of Allied prisoners at the hands of the Japenese is such a stain on the character of their country that it may not be erased or forgotten for many decades to come. The quicker they move to fully accept and fully apologize for their crime the better it will be for them.

Rob

[/QUOTE]

 

[jazzeum]

As noted, forgiveness may never happen but particularly without an acknowledgement of responsibility. Enmities will thus persist through generations. For example, my son has contempt for them for what they did to the Chinese people (he is half Chinese).

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

Well, I did mention the anniversary of Katyn earlier but, no real admirer of the soviet conduct in the years before WWII and during it. I think, as you mention, we have really aggressively purued germany for their initiation of two world wars in terms of compensation and, in terms of morality to its absolute. The japanese with their mindset were, in my mind, a worse enemy. Its similar to how we view the war in the far east in the way that we did not puruse as rigourously japanese war criminals the trials were piece meal and, not really seen as important. they were over shadowed by the many trials at Nuremburg.

When you look into the figures of the amount of civillians that died at the hands of the Japanese its astonishing. Mitch...

 

[lancer]

Tojo....I mean Mitch^&grin:wink2:,

Yes I do take your point of course, perhaps I should have said that in the eyes of other nations they need to apologize before those nations will forgive and forget. And of course then the question broadens out into the bomb, our bombing of Germany and German bombing of us etc etc. One reason I wrote what I did is that Germany has offered apologies and regrets on several occasions over the years and seems to want to move on. (although I think perhaps it should stop criticizing the allied nations when they hold memorial services etc).So I was wondering if in Japan they get fed up with this running sore re the allied POW's and perhaps might want to move past it, but perhaps they just don't give a ? . I think the dropping of the two A bombs although terrible for the citizens of those two cities was a necessary evil that showed the Japs they were never going to win and therefore brought an end to a conflict that no doubt would have gone on to claim hundreds of thousands of more lives on both sides. We must also remember that Pearl Harbor was a despicable
attack on America and although the casualties were not on the scale of the A bomb sites lets not fool ourselves that if they could have the Japenese would have sunk every single ship and killed every serviceman there that day. They did pay a very high price in the end, but it was of their own making.

Cheers Ivan (I thought I'd give you your next name early Mitch because next we will be talking about Russian atrocities in Berlin!^&grin:wink2

Rob

[/QUOTE]Good post, Rob. As I have discussed before, the A-bomb, brutal weapon and horror that it is, is probably responsible for the survival of the Japanese race. Had the A-bomb not been used, the Japanese not convinced that they could not win, then an invasion by the Allies would have been the result with all that means for the sides involved. It would have been neccesary for the Allies to all but exterminate the Japanese in order to win the war. The Allies would have suffered horrid casualties against a foe that had proven it's tenacity and willingness to die before surrender. And that is exactly what the Japanese would have done; died. The A-bomb was a weapon of war and weapons are used to win wars. The A-bomb was the war winner and had to be used. How could Truman have justified NOT using it? How could he have faced the American people and the Allies, and explained that he had a weapon at hand that could end the war without a horrendously expensive invasion, but chose not to use it? He couldn't, and he made the right decision to end the war by the shortest and most humane, (if one can apply this word to war), route. The terrible A-bomb, and all it meant for the future, did it's job by ending the war and SAVING millions of lives. -- Al

 

[The Military Workshop]

For those who have not clicked on the link this massacre is notorious for the fact most of the victims were Australian nurses who had survived a shipwreck and washed up on a beach only to be machine-gunned.

Vivian Bullwinkle was the most well known survivor and her story is mentioned in the link.

In 1999 an artist I know, Brian Wood, was commissioned to do an artwork of the 100 Years of Australian Military Nurses which he did as a collage. He interviewed a number of well known nurses including Vivian prior to doing the artwork. As he was doing so he invited some of them to sign the prints that were to be produced. When he interviewed Vivian, with her husband, he noticed Vivian was paralysed on her right side and in her right hand so did not mention print signing. During a subsequent phone call with the husband the husband mentioned that Vivian had said there was no way she was not going to sign the print (some proceeds were going to a nursing charity). She subsequently signed with her left hand. Unfortunately for the publisher she was only able to sign 74 of the 1,000 prints before she died. I believe the original is in a Melbourne Hospital.

The print image can be seen at :
www.angelstwenty.com/nurse.html
The photo of print does not do the original justice (it took 6 months). A lot of the detail in the top is not so clear. The text shows the history of the images in the collage.
Vivian can be seen escaping in bottom right corner. Centre bottom depicts the sinking of the Hospital Ship Centaur off the Queensland coast and Nurse Ellen Savage tending the survivors. The wreck of the Centaur was only recently discovered.

Regards
Brett

 

[Currahee Chris]

Lots of interesting (and wildly amusing) thoughts expressed here.

I read the Code of the Samurai- (The Bushido Shosshinsu of Taira Shigesuke) on a near daily basis and have so since my Currahee days and more involved since I became a student of martial arts more than a decade ago. What is espoused in the Bushido code and what was perpetrated by the IJA are wildy differing interpretations. As unfortunately what happened with Germany in WW2, the political leaders twisted the national psyche and preyed upon the people they were representing and well, we know what happened from there. The Code of the Samurai absolutely never states anywhere that captives are supposed to be treated inhumanely- even the topic of surrender is barely touched upon and there is a lot of scholarly debate as to why- try to bear in mind it was written 400 years before the events of WW2- around the Age of the Warring states.

Bushido is actually quite the opposite as to what was perpetrated by the IJA. It starts discussing why life is to be so highly valued by the living and that we should do all we can to live as righteous and loyally as possible. It also stresses very modern concepts such as loyalty to ones parents, discipline in the sake of improving ones health, no fellas, what was perpetrated by the IJA was wildly off the mark.

@Lancer- I personally ahor atomic weapons. I dont even really view them as weapons I view them as political trump cards- sort of the ace up your sleeve- which essentially set the tone for the cold war (via Mutually Assured Destruction). I think where so many people castigate the decision to use atomic weapons is simply because we in the West do believe we fought the war as humanely as possible and never sold out our common respect in the dignity of human life- we knew what had to be done but the thought of scores of Japanese children being decimated in a split second is still something extremely painful for us to admit- even to this day. Make no mistake about it, it was a decision that had to be made but I think we all wish it didnt have to be so.

Lastly, I often hear discussion centered on the official stance of the Japanese government since 1945- there have been numerous apologies offered by their government- I believe as recently as last March to some Australian veterans group. I do believe the problem we all grapple with is why they offer apologies yet seem to take a different official stance with the textbooks or even with their corporate activity- thats what has always been irksome to me.

Make no mistake about it, I feel the same way about the IJA as I do about the Nazis- put em all against the wall and lock n load. I just wish that the atomic bomb wasnt the way to do it- killing combatants is fine by me- mass killings of civilians is another- it certainly was a terrible time in human history.

 

[Mitch]

Chris..

Is it not a fact that the japanese saw surrender as a shameful act and, one which, denegrated ones stance. It was a mindset within japanese military culture which, permeated the entire japanese population and, was at the heart of the manner in which, they treat combatant POW's and, a natural progression to treat civillians they conquered in the way that they did. Look at pre war Japan and, the number of suicides at the slightest thought of bringing shame onto oneself or, family. It is very high.

Thats not wildy amusing thats just what they did. Where in your lock and load do you draw the line when a nation supports the code whether tangible or not?? Japanese civillians killed themselves in droves partially for propaganda and fear of the allies and, partially for the shame involved. They also actively partook in the killing of their enemy. One has to remember the militaristic history of Japan and, that it was, and, to some extent still is, imbued with a stoic military disciplne. Also, why the code of the Samurai came about. Honour loyalty and courage were the central tenants.

As a martial artist myself I think it could be said that some of the traits imbued in the writings of many centuries could aid your point which, may be twisting the maxims as much as you say the IJA did. It is not as simplistic to say that Bushido was manipulated to encapture a nation.
Mitch

 

[lancer]

Hi Chris. I completely agree about the A-bomb. A terrible weapon. The tragedy is that the Japanese put the US in the position of having to make the decision to use it. As you say, a decision that had to be made. With all the discussion of the Japanese and their reasons for treating POW's and civilians the way that they did, it is important to note that race was a huge factor. Although it was an East vs West racial superiority problem at the core of the mistreatment, the Japanese also saw themselves as superior to other Eastern cultures as well. The treatment by the Japanese of the people of all the territories that they occupied was horrendous. The Japanese massacre of Chinese was a constant and was racially driven to a large degree. The Pacific War was an ugly race war as much as anything else, an unfortunate clash of cultures that knew little about each other. The Japanese carried it to the extreme. -- Al

 

[Currahee Chris]

It is not as simplistic to say that Bushido was manipulated to encapture a nation.
Mitch

I really dont follow much of your post but do follow this sentence and respectfully disagree. Again, I am speaking strictly in terms of Bushido- there are many other variables which led Japan down its road to self destruction- (another being that the Emperor was viewed as a divine entity). When I hear individuals discuss Bushido, especially in light of it being a cause of the actions of Japanese troopers, I always take exception- to me, and again, just me, Bushido is another in a long line of philosophies, thoughts, what have you that govern how one is expected to live and act. Certainly the tone is militaristic, which, imo, makes it singular in comparisons to other books like the Bible, Qu'ran, Torah, etc. To me, what the Japanese rulers did by invoking Bushido really wasnt much different than using the Bible during the Crusades, or even the warped manifests of the Militant islamists today by invoking the Qu'ran for jihad.

I think if a lot of people took the time to read Bushido they might actually be surprised how different the content is from their notions of what it contains.

@Al- very insightful post regarding the racial divide in the Orient. A lot of people think I am crazy when I discuss it but have seen it first hand in my travels both as a trooper and civie. Odd but the hatred runs very deep.

 

[Mitch]

Chris..

Once again, you think its about disagreeing. I did not really mention in my post Bushido at all. I mentioned a code that the japanese followed (whether written or implied) whereby they viewed POW's etc as lesser beings almost and, found it shameful that they surrendered. From that its easy to see that a race so militaristic and, with such a history of such militarianism in their culture would act in the way that they did. Thats all I said. I know the maxims of the Bushido but, its not been required reading every day for me as you seem to do, through the many years I did martial arts. The central tenants are what I mentioned. I am lost where the leaders of Japan, the emperor, imbued Bushido into the people!!! that train of thought was imbued into the people from what, the 12th century or so and, the emporer was, almost god like. so, if he had decreed die this way which, could have been seen as a dogs death (unworthy) under the code you speak of, the people would have followed regardless of the bushido code.

I think you try to hard to find issues in posts that are not there as with the LAH recently and, while I enjoy debating with you I do agree that you have made it a point whereby its supposedly, my point against yours and, no common ground. Do you think I am supporting the japanese now because I have not jumped in and said how outrageous they are??

I stated simply in response to Robs comments that the japanese way of life, culture, code (not necessarily Bushido) was the reason or, one of them, that made them treat their POW's and, civillians in the way they did. Al has mentioned racial issues which were also part of it and, that was it.

I look forward to the next time you comment on a post of mine
Mitch

I really dont follow much of your post but do follow this sentence and respectfully disagree. Again, I am speaking strictly in terms of Bushido- there are many other variables which led Japan down its road to self destruction- (another being that the Emperor was viewed as a divine entity). When I hear individuals discuss Bushido, especially in light of it being a cause of the actions of Japanese troopers, I always take exception- to me, and again, just me, Bushido is another in a long line of philosophies, thoughts, what have you that govern how one is expected to live and act. Certainly the tone is militaristic, which, imo, makes it singular in comparisons to other books like the Bible, Qu'ran, Torah, etc. To me, what the Japanese rulers did by invoking Bushido really wasnt much different than using the Bible during the Crusades, or even the warped manifests of the Militant islamists today by invoking the Qu'ran for jihad.

I think if a lot of people took the time to read Bushido they might actually be surprised how different the content is from their notions of what it contains.

@Al- very insightful post regarding the racial divide in the Orient. A lot of people think I am crazy when I discuss it but have seen it first hand in my travels both as a trooper and civie. Odd but the hatred runs very deep.