75 th MARKET GARDEN ANNIVERSARY (3 Viewers)

[King & Country]

A bridge too far the book mate, also I'm pretty sure it's in Middlebrook's book Arnhem.

Scott

I’ve read both the Cornelius Ryan and Martin Middlebrook books on Arnhem as well as the more recent Anthony Beevor one. I don’t recall any mention of Col. Vandeleur wearing a ‘Denison’ smock...
Also the man himself was one of the historical advisors on ‘A Bridge Too Far’ and was present in Holland when they were filming Michael Caine portraying him in the movie...Surely, he would have said something if ‘MC’ was incorrectly uniformed..!
Andy.
P.S. K&C’s Lt. Col. Vandeleur is wearing standard British Army ‘BD’ [Battledress].

 

[villagehorse]

I never doubted you Andy. Looking forward to the release, hopefully not too far away^&grin. Robin.

 

[ExRanger]

Andy, love the direction you’ve taken the Arnhem figures but how about some of the German Officers involved in the Battle? Love to see the following officers. Field Marshal Model, Capt. Victor Graebner,
Gen. Ludwig, Gen. Bittrich, Col. Heinz Harmel and Col. Walter Harper. Anyone else interested? Think these would make a great fit to this excellent line of figures.

 

[arnhem44mad]

I’ve read both the Cornelius Ryan and Martin Middlebrook books on Arnhem as well as the more recent Anthony Beevor one. I don’t recall any mention of Col. Vandeleur wearing a ‘Denison’ smock...
Also the man himself was one of the historical advisors on ‘A Bridge Too Far’ and was present in Holland when they were filming Michael Caine portraying him in the movie...Surely, he would have said something if ‘MC’ was incorrectly uniformed..!
Andy.
P.S. K&C’s Lt. Col. Vandeleur is wearing standard British Army ‘BD’ [Battledress].

Challenge accepted mate. I will find it and photograph the page and book just for you and anyone else who may not be aware of this fact!also remember mate you are slightly older than myself and may have forgotten some facts. I've visited your website and you seem to have a lot of facts on there which are very nut and bolt. In the living history world we would call you a 'stitch counter' yet you seem to forget facts such as Vandeleur wearing a Denison. Suppose we can't all remember everything, can we?

Scott

 

[The Military Workshop]

Challenge accepted mate. I will find it and photograph the page and book just for you and anyone else who may not be aware of this fact!also remember mate you are slightly older than myself and may have forgotten some facts. I've visited your website and you seem to have a lot of facts on there which are very nut and bolt. In the living history world we would call you a 'stitch counter' yet you seem to forget facts such as Vandeleur wearing a Denison. Suppose we can't all remember everything, can we?

Scott

Scott,

I look forward to your proof that Van de Leur wore a Denison smock. As Andy points out he was an advisor on the movie and since Denison not normal wear for Irish Guards you would think he would have pointed that out. Especially since the movie wardrobe guys had a few of them on the set.

However isn't Andy's release supposed to be based on the movie version ? In which case he would be right.

I particularly enjoyed the irony of you calling Andy a "stitch counter".

I note ArnhemJim is also looking forward to your proof and over the years I have got the impression he knows a thing or two about Arnhem.

 

[arnhem44mad]

Scott,

I look forward to your proof that Van de Leur wore a Denison smock. As Andy points out he was an advisor on the movie and since Denison not normal wear for Irish Guards you would think he would have pointed that out. Especially since the movie wardrobe guys had a few of them on the set.

However isn't Andy's release supposed to be based on the movie version ? In which case he would be right.

I particularly enjoyed the irony of you calling Andy a "stitch counter".

I note ArnhemJim is also looking forward to your proof and over the years I have got the impression he knows a thing or two about Arnhem.

Ah I got confused I thought Andy was Arnhem Jim.

Apologies Andy, you definetly aren't a stitch counter. However Jim has details upon details. I'm sure he even knows how many stitches are in a Denison.

Scott

 

[arnhem44mad]

From Cornelius Ryan's Book.

Part 2: The plan

Chapter 7

Page 146:

'The renowned Lieutenant-Colonel J.O.E. ('Joe') Vande-leur, the sordidly-built, ruddy faced, six-foot commander of the Irish Guards Armoured Group, personified the kind of devil-may-carw elegance of the Guards Officers. The 41-year-old Vandeleur was wearing his usual COMBAT GARB: black beret, MULTI-COLOURED CAMOUFLAGE PARACHUTISTS'S JACKET, and corduroy trousers above high rubber boots.

MULTI-COLOURED CAMOUFLAGE PARACHUTISTS'S JACKET

Otherwise known as (you guessed it) a Denison smock.

Now if I managed to find this information in 10 minutes after an 8 hour shift working with children aged 2-5 imagine what the people who are supposed to be doing the research could do...if they did the research. After all it's from a book which they read...isn't it?

By all means dislike me, sneer at my posts and whatever else, hey you can even disagree with me, but when it comes to knowledge about the Battle of Arnhem and Operation Market Garden you are talking to someone who has did a lot of reading and learning on the subject. I wouldn't make a statement if I couldn't back it up.

Good day gents. No apologies needed!

Scott

P.S. I picked the name Arnhem44mad for a reason lads!

Utrinque Paratus

 

[arnhem44mad]

Just got a pm from Arnhem Jim:

Hello Scott,
If you really must get totally “chick-“ about this, you found the right quote, and then transposed the page number from 164 to 146 in your reply on the forum. Obviously “no big deal”; Unless if the number had been grid coordinates for an artillery fire mission perhaps a different story? Hope you can recognize the point. Perhaps a bit of modesty and diplomacy could be in order to temper your seeming arrogance. Given on the same page it is mentioned that; “Even Horrocks had once dryly admonished Vandeleur. If the Germans ever get you, Joe” he said, “they’ll think they’ve captured a peasant.” The account of what Vandeleur wore to Horrock’s briefing at the theatre in Leopoldsburg , Belgium on 16 September, 1944, is accurate. As a retired semi-skilled professional I have long deleted from my vocabulary the words, assume and assumption. What LtCol Vandeleur wore the next day, 17 September 1944, may have been entirely different. I wasn’t there, were you?
Slàinte Mhòr!
Jim
Arizona Territory


So to summarise he has not even accepted that he was wrong and I was right. I never challenged anyone, I was challenged and now that I have proven my case the challengers can't even hold their hands up and say 'Fair play lads, I was wrong.

I guess that's just how the older generation now.

Just because soneone is younger than you and may have a better memory and actually know and remember a little bit more than the older generation, the older generation claim arrogance and reject the claims which in the end then out to be facts.

It really is turning into a sad world which we live in. I work with very young children and often coming on this forum and then dealing with some of the members it's like being at work!

Scott

 

[Rudi Starnberg]

Victor Graebner leading the recon squadron over the bridge in his captured Humber would be great to see ...the ill fated attack is very well described in Kershaw's "It never snows in September " ( and immortalised on film ) .

 

[OzDigger]

From Cornelius Ryan's Book.

Part 2: The plan

Chapter 7

Page 146:

'The renowned Lieutenant-Colonel J.O.E. ('Joe') Vande-leur, the sordidly-built, ruddy faced, six-foot commander of the Irish Guards Armoured Group, personified the kind of devil-may-carw elegance of the Guards Officers. The 41-year-old Vandeleur was wearing his usual COMBAT GARB: black beret, MULTI-COLOURED CAMOUFLAGE PARACHUTISTS'S JACKET, and corduroy trousers above high rubber boots.

MULTI-COLOURED CAMOUFLAGE PARACHUTISTS'S JACKET

Otherwise known as (you guessed it) a Denison smock.

Now if I managed to find this information in 10 minutes after an 8 hour shift working with children aged 2-5 imagine what the people who are supposed to be doing the research could do...if they did the research. After all it's from a book which they read...isn't it?

By all means dislike me, sneer at my posts and whatever else, hey you can even disagree with me, but when it comes to knowledge about the Battle of Arnhem and Operation Market Garden you are talking to someone who has did a lot of reading and learning on the subject. I wouldn't make a statement if I couldn't back it up.

Good day gents. No apologies needed!

Scott

P.S. I picked the name Arnhem44mad for a reason lads!

Utrinque Paratus

If this is a direct quote from the book I'm concerned about him being "sordidly-built". Maybe he wasn't wearing anything at all.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Good day gents. No apologies needed!

Scott

P.S. I picked the name Arnhem44mad for a reason lads!

Utrinque Paratus

Congratulations on being right regarding page in book :salute::

Now if only LTCOL VdeL had read the book before he advised on the movie.

 

[arnhem44mad]

Congratulations on being right regarding page in book :salute::

Now if only LTCOL VdeL had read the book before he advised on the movie.

Movies aren't good sources for information or accuracy mate. For example Band of brothers which was a huge series. None of the Garands had lockbar rear sights they were all post war which seems like nothing until you realise how many close up shots there were of men firing Garands. Um sure veterans advised on this filming too. Sometimes people forget the minor details.

Scott

 

[The Military Workshop]

Movies aren't good sources for information or accuracy mate. For example Band of brothers which was a huge series. None of the Garands had lockbar rear sights they were all post war which seems like nothing until you realise how many close up shots there were of men firing Garands. Um sure veterans advised on this filming too. Sometimes people forget the minor details.

Scott

It must be great to be able to watch a Spielberg movie / series where he has employed military advisers and be able to pick a very minor detail missed out of a such a mega production. Would have ruined the whole series if I had known about that when watching it.

Perhaps in the overall scheme of such a huge series it was just not considered worthwhile to worry about.

 

[arnhem44mad]

It must be great to be able to watch a Spielberg movie / series where he has employed military advisers and be able to pick a very minor detail missed out of a such a mega production. Would have ruined the whole series if I had known about that when watching it.

Perhaps in the overall scheme of such a huge series it was just not considered worthwhile to worry about.

Oh there's loads more mate. Also your sarky comments are not needed. Haven't you got a pretend business to run?

Scott

 

[King & Country]

Oh there's loads more mate. Also your sarky comments are not needed. Haven't you got a pretend business to run?

Scott

Scott, greetings from Chicago...While I appreciate your obvious enthusiasm and, to some extent, your depth of knowledge about some limited aspects of WW2 you are in great danger of becoming a bit of a ‘smart arse’ in your dealings with other members of this Forum whenever anyone has a difference of opinion with you.

Being a ‘Living History Reenactor’ can be a lot of fun and educational too I am sure but many of the guys you have ‘crossed swords’ with here have been in the actual armed forces and are also very knowledgeable in many different aspects of history.

And, when it comes to being ‘sarky’...from previous encounters with you over the years...You like to dish it out BUT are not quite so amenable when it gets ‘dished’ back.

By all means express your own personal thoughts and opinions but don’t put yourself forward as being the ultimate ‘Font of Knowledge’ when it comes to Arnhem or indeed anything else...None of us knows everything about WW2 and it’s great fun and helpful to share with fellow collectors....
Let’s keep it that way.

All the best,
Andy.

 

[waynepoo]

Scott, remember......


The young bull says, "Let's run down there and screw a cow!" The old bull says, "No, let's walk down and screw them all." ... The old bull, speaking with wisdom, knows if they walk they'll conserve energy and screw all the cows.

An old bloke.

 

[ExRanger]

Andy, love the direction you’ve taken the Arnhem figures but how about some of the German Officers involved in the Battle? Love to see the following officers. Field Marshal Model, Capt. Victor Graebner,
Gen. Ludwig, Gen. Bittrich, Col. Heinz Harmel and Col. Walter Harper. Anyone else interested? Think these would make a great fit to this excellent line of figures.

Yes. I’m on board.

 

[arnhem44mad]

Scott, greetings from Chicago...While I appreciate your obvious enthusiasm and, to some extent, your depth of knowledge about some limited aspects of WW2 you are in great danger of becoming a bit of a ‘smart arse’ in your dealings with other members of this Forum whenever anyone has a difference of opinion with you.

Being a ‘Living History Reenactor’ can be a lot of fun and educational too I am sure but many of the guys you have ‘crossed swords’ with here have been in the actual armed forces and are also very knowledgeable in many different aspects of history.

And, when it comes to being ‘sarky’...from previous encounters with you over the years...You like to dish it out BUT are not quite so amenable when it gets ‘dished’ back.

By all means express your own personal thoughts and opinions but don’t put yourself forward as being the ultimate ‘Font of Knowledge’ when it comes to Arnhem or indeed anything else...None of us knows everything about WW2 and it’s great fun and helpful to share with fellow collectors....
Let’s keep it that way.

All the best,
Andy.

I never said I knew everything bud. But as someone who buys your products I expect them to be as realistic as possible.

And I don't get sarky until someone has a go at me. I was always taught if you are pushed first knock the idiot out. Now you're name calling Andy, not going to stoop to your level.

Do your job and listen to your customers. Your products will be criticised. Get over it, accept that you're wrong and move on. Fix the painting issue and no more will be said but don't resort to personal attacks. Maybe this is why other companies are selling more than K&C - they do their research and listen to customers points. For example Thomas Gunn. Great company and great listeners and fantastic real people who will be humble and say 'Ok we got it wrong.

Lots of people criticise your products and not once have you simply said 'Ok fair play I was wrong'.

Instead of trying to teach me a lesson why don't you focus on your products bud. You have the chance to be the best don't let your sensitivity spoil it.

Scott

 

[Nelson1976]

I never said I knew everything bud. But as someone who buys your products I expect them to be as realistic as possible.

And I don't get sarky until someone has a go at me. I was always taught if you are pushed first knock the idiot out. Now you're name calling Andy, not going to stoop to your level.

Do your job and listen to your customers. Your products will be criticised. Get over it, accept that you're wrong and move on. Fix the painting issue and no more will be said but don't resort to personal attacks. Maybe this is why other companies are selling more than K&C - they do their research and listen to customers points. For example Thomas Gunn. Great company and great listeners and fantastic real people who will be humble and say 'Ok we got it wrong.

Lots of people criticise your products and not once have you simply said 'Ok fair play I was wrong'.

Instead of trying to teach me a lesson why don't you focus on your products bud. You have the chance to be the best don't let your sensitivity spoil it.

Scott

I have been a collector for a long time but I rarely if ever contribute to this forum for which I apologise - but my view here is that it’s all a bit silly to be so critical. It’s a hobby - nothing is perfect in life, and we all have views about what is right and wrong. I’ve read the books referred to, but the truth is it’s all about what we imagined it was like - were any of us actually there at the time?

No one is dressing figures in pink skirts for example.

If you don’t like a product don’t buy it, but can the rest of us just be allowed to have a bit of fun and be grateful that we have so many good manufacturers producing figures in so many great eras?

 

[arnhem44mad]

I have been a collector for a long time but I rarely if ever contribute to this forum for which I apologise - but my view here is that it’s all a bit silly to be so critical. It’s a hobby - nothing is perfect in life, and we all have views about what is right and wrong. I’ve read the books referred to, but the truth is it’s all about what we imagined it was like - were any of us actually there at the time?

No one is dressing figures in pink skirts for example.

If you don’t like a product don’t buy it, but can the rest of us just be allowed to have a bit of fun and be grateful that we have so many good manufacturers producing figures in so many great eras?

Everyone is a critic bud. The problem is that when I am critical people (who have bees in their bonnets) challenge my critique and make out that I am taking the Mick or talking rubbish. As stated before when I make a claim I have fact behind me.

Scott

P.S. glad you commented and please post more!