ACW Union Headgear - The Wrong Cap (3 Viewers)

With all the readily available books and online sources I'm surprised that makers don't check these out first. These are beautifully sculpted figures but they claim to represent a specific unit on a specific day.
 
Mister Dave said:
Cannot help but notice there seems to be some inconsistency with handing out infractions in this case. Matt gets punished and put on moderated status for biting back at a critic, while another high profile and much beloved manufacturer seems to be immune from consequences for routinely and regularly ripping into forum members who have the gall to cross him.
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Last comment on this, if we are talking the same thing that got the infraction, trust me that while that collector can be critical, he is also an FL collector.

Again, this whole thing borders on stupidity as I posted before. Intoxicated or not, we all have to think before we speak/post, I know I have been guilty in the past of the same stupidity of posting b/f fully thinking it through, but I truly believe and try to never dip into the proverbial schoolyard and personally insult people. Hey, I know half of you personally and the other half I don't, still , I do not want to post something I would not say to you personally.

Being a critic is fine, defending against a critic b/c you believe in something is fine too, but personaly derogatory insults are not, I believe this is something we all believe, is it not?

Carry on, back to our collections!
TD
 
Alex said:
Is there freedom of speech on this forum ? I'm asking because this particular thread https://forum.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21828 is still going strong while many things expressed in it are clearly not related to the original topic ... Just wondering

Alex
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Is there freedom of speech? People use it everyday on this forum.

Do threads wander sometimes? Of course.

Is shifting a thread from talk of soldiers to talk of moderation helpful? I think not. In the past we've seen it spiral into a shouting match.

The moderation council does their best to strike a balance on this forum. Nobody gets a free pass, no matter what people may think.
 
Spitfrnd said:
I don't know what he broke but I do know he had more than good cause Tom. I am not sure I would have not said some personal derogatory things to that forum member under the circumstances. It was an silly and inflammatory post, sometimes called bait. There should be consequences for such a post and one who makes one can hardly complain if he gets something bitting back. I guess I don't agree that "regardless" applies but that is hardly big news.

In any event it is nothing between us so let's just agree to let it go mate.;)
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Totally Agree, Matt's response was justified in lieu of the fact that the forum member involved said that FL would never be a major player in the toy soldier industry unless their distribution methods changed.....Very Inflammatory and VERY WRONG....Some forum member also needs to be moderated and Matt did the much needed moderation in that case.....E-Nuff SAID
 
Vezzolf - I fully agree!

And also, looking at an attic is like looking at toy soldiers - the beauty is in the eye of the beholder - for some certain toy soldiers are beautiful and for some an attic is a Museum :D.
 
I wouldn't bring Mort Kunstler into any discussion on civil war uniforms,for although he is a fine artist,his research tends to be very poor,resulting in many uniform inaccuracies in his paintings.The same goes for reenactor groups,many of which seem to be 'farby' and in many instances laughable.Generally in Eastern Theatre Federal cavalry units forage caps were the norm,although there were exceptions.In an earlier post I cited two examples of mid-war Army of the Potomac cavalry wearing kepis.I've just done a little more research and one of the first photos that I came across was of Custer and General Pleasanton taken in June 1863 in Falmouth ,Virginia.In the background is a cavalry private clearly wearing a kepi.I would expect that Buford's troops would,on the whole,have been wearing forage caps,but there would almost certainly have been a sprinkling of kepis and slouch hats visible in the ranks.
Jeff

mestell said:
I was able to find some time today to do some more research on the Federal cavalry arms & uniforms that were probably used/worn by Buford's cavalry at Gettysburg on July 1, 1863. In the Time Life book Echoes of Glory; Arms and Equipment of the Union, kepis were only listed as headgear for officers (pgs 178 & 179) where as forage caps were listed for both officers and enlisted men (pgs 180-183). In the Mort Kunstler painting depicting the 8th Illinois Cavalry (Gamble) on July 1, 1863 entitled "Hold at all Cost", the combatants are wearing forage caps. A 12th Illinois Cavalry (Gamble) ACW re-enactment group requires members to have forage caps and Smith carbines. I found a vintage photo of the 3rd Indiana Cavalry (Gamble) near Petersburg, VA in 1864 and all those in the photo were wearing forage caps. A 17th PA Cavalry (Devin) ACW re-enactment group requires members to have forage caps. I also found two 9th NY Cavalry (Devin) ACW re-enactment groups, Co B & Co M, both of which require members to have forage caps/bummers and either a Sharps or a Smith carbine. Also, for every three dismounted troopers that were engaged, a fourth would be behind the line holding the horses of those three - wouldn't that make a fantastic set.
:) Mike
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"....fine artist.."

He kind of the Thomas Kinkade of reenactor art.
 
Scott said:
With all the readily available books and online sources I'm surprised that makers don't check these out first. These are beautifully sculpted figures but they claim to represent a specific unit on a specific day.
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Judging by the disparate comments already posted I'd say there was more than one opinion, just as there is more than one source on uniforms that are over 150 years old. And then we have interpretation.:)
 
Sure but interpretations have to based on evidence (duh!) The NPS documentation of the use of Spencer carbines by Union Cavalry knocks these figures out of showing 1863 Gettysburg. Photos of various caps documented to a time and place are another. Here Custer appears to have a private purchase kepi. I can't tell what cap the man on foot is wearing other than that he is wearing crossed sabers on the top.


custer-horseback.jpg
 
Well thank you for your kind words mate (duh).:rolleyes: BTW, I think you may have missed the carbine discussion sometime back.
 
I don't think I did. Mike's notes from the NPS make figures representing Buford's troops with Spencer Carbines not right. Unless refuting documents were deleted to the Memory Hole. The "DUH" was me stating the obvious.

One problem with using reenacting units as a source (unless they document what they are wearing to that unit) is that .....

1. these small units have to combine with others to make a viable "unit" at reenactments so some standardization of uniform is necessary to do a unit impression instead 4 "207th Texas Irish-Zouaves", 6 "Horse Marines", and 6 or more "Highlander Jagers" doing a line US/CS unit.

2. Repro gear quality varies and in the case of Sharps Carbines and others, more available and affordable. Good forage caps, (Bummers), are more affordable and available than kepis. More sewing I think.

Groups want to get the best people with the best gear that is recognized for quality and availability. Hence historically their unit had X and Y but those items are odd and no one is making them. If they do get X and Y they don't blend in with other groups who had W and Z gear. Good reenactment groups will tell you that.

My old CW unit should have had New Hampshire Grey frock coats and "Whipple Hats."
 
Hi Scott,
I've just downloaded a high resolution version of this photo off the Library of Congress site and it clearly shows the trooper in the background wearing a kepi with crossed swords.
Jeff

Scott said:
Sure but interpretations have to based on evidence (duh!) The NPS documentation of the use of Spencer carbines by Union Cavalry knocks these figures out of showing 1863 Gettysburg. Photos of various caps documented to a time and place are another. Here Custer appears to have a private purchase kepi. I can't tell what cap the man on foot is wearing other than that he is wearing crossed sabers on the top.


custer-horseback.jpg
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Considering the depth of research that has gone into the Napoleonic and Stalingrad lines, I'm surprised that Matt wouldn't have consulted the Official Records for an idea as to what Buford's troops were wearing and shooting. Folks will argue all day about a particular shade of field grey on a Panzer III, but you question the ACW line, and all you get is "It's good enough" or "That was my vision." I'm dipping my toes into the matte pool with First Legion's Rev War line, but I hope Matt's research went a little deeper than watching "The Patriot."

Dave
Drill Nazi
 
Cool! I'll have a look. Note he's also wearing a fatigue blouse not a shell jacket.

Here it is...small amount of material in the trooper's cap. Could be a Kepi but it's in Custer's unit.

4a40134r.jpg
 
Hope it wasn't The Patriot! They got the Tory uniforms wrong in that one. ;)
 
Well, if I compared that to the so called secret weapon of the Nazis K&C pulled out couple of years ago (born in the imagination of Mr Andy N. but without any real historical background), I can tell you that there's far more research in FL figures than what you can find in the typical K&C... So viva First legion !

Alex


churchmouse1 said:
Considering the depth of research that has gone into the Napoleonic and Stalingrad lines, I'm surprised that Matt wouldn't have consulted the Official Records for an idea as to what Buford's troops were wearing and shooting. Folks will argue all day about a particular shade of field grey on a Panzer III, but you question the ACW line, and all you get is "It's good enough" or "That was my vision." I'm dipping my toes into the matte pool with First Legion's Rev War line, but I hope Matt's research went a little deeper than watching "The Patriot."

Dave
Drill Nazi
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churchmouse1 said:
Considering the depth of research that has gone into the Napoleonic and Stalingrad lines, I'm surprised that Matt wouldn't have consulted the Official Records for an idea as to what Buford's troops were wearing and shooting. Folks will argue all day about a particular shade of field grey on a Panzer III, but you question the ACW line, and all you get is "It's good enough" or "That was my vision." I'm dipping my toes into the matte pool with First Legion's Rev War line, but I hope Matt's research went a little deeper than watching "The Patriot."

Dave
Drill Nazi
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In fairness Dave, my response about "my vision" was in reference to how the ACW rebels look. And we won't be changing them at all, because they look exactly how we want them to look and feel that trying to capture perfect "drill" movements on the battlefield is pretty unrealistic.

That being said, we are going to make some changes to the Union dismounted cavalry. Much of our reference material does show kepis but it is entirely possible that the reference material was wrong or that the kepi was shown as part of an officers uniform. So we will be changing all of the privates to forage caps as it's an easy enough change.

As for the Carbines, we do realize that Buford's cavalry did not have the spencer. That was just a simple mistake and we've been discussing that internally for some time now. The problem is that some of the figures, in fact my favorite figure, can't be easily changed. So what I think we're going to do is to change the ones that can be easily changed and leave the ones that can't as they are.

Suffice it to say, we'll be a lot more careful on future releases in terms of the research. That being said, even with these errors, we feel the figures are superb sculpts and will be superbly painted. However, as we want to get it right for the unit that we're doing, we're going to make the changes that we can.

Hope this addresses everyone's concerns about the figures.

Best,

Matt
 
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