Advice required for Highland Band (5 Viewers)

[johnnybach]

Hello everyone - I'm a new-boy to the forum - but have been assembling and painting, repairing old wounded soldiers etc., and castings for quite a while. I have a project in mind, and wondered if anyone out there is a Highland Band expert - with knowledge specifically of Highland drummers around 1860's.

I intend to make up a Colour Party with escort, followed by a Highland Band with three elements:
1. Pipers: 2. Drummers: 3. Musicians.

The CP and drummers wear the red doublet jacket - the pipers green, and the musicians will wear the white jacket; should make up a nice colourful group. I am using as a guide, Bill Carman's lovely book (illustrated by Richard Simkin), Uniforms of the British Army(1985) All ok so far.

My problem is - I would like the drummer section to contain a Bass Drummer and (maybe) a Tenor Drummer or two. Now as the Scottish Doublet came in from 1855 onwards - and the white jackets of the musicians ended around 1873 - I am left with a median date of 1867 for my group, and this is where information seems to get a bit thin. What was the Bass drummer wearing (assuming there was one - which I am)? Was it an apron, or an animal skin such as tiger or leopard? Were there any Tenor Drummers -so beloved of Pipe Bands now? If there were, were they wearing skins too? I have a photo of a fusilier in 1897 wearing a leopard skin - but he's not a Scot and it's thirty years on!

We know that there was a tenor drummer in a British Army Band in 1835 (memory tells me he was in RA or RE?) - and I find it difficult to believe that the Scots, some 32 years later, didn't have some too?

I intend to use some of Giles Brown's (Dorset Soldiers) castings - which I can adapt to suit the time-frame. I always research first, to get the uniform as "correct" as I can, though given the 54mm size and toy soldier glossy look that I like, as best as I can manage. I would like the group to be the Camerons - 'cos I haven't painted their tartan before - but any other highland regiment would be fine - IF it can be shown that they had the two types of drummer too.

So, in short, is there a Highland Band expert modeller/historian out there that can advise - on these two points in particular - or the suggested group generally. Any advice greatfully received. Sorry for such a big "dump" on my first expedition into the forum, but any help will be much appreciated - regards from Johnny.

 

[thebritfarmer]

Well I can be of no help other than to welcome you to the forum. I am sure one of our experts such as

trooper
Martin Tabony
Ken Osen (William Britain)
nshighlander

are just a few that would probably be best to advise you.

Good luck and please if possible post some pictures of your progress.

 

[johnnybach]

Thanks for the reply. As I am very new to this - I'll wait and see what turns up. I recognise some of the names mentioned, as I have been having a peek for quite a while. ta-ta4now - johnny.

 

[trooper]

Hi Johnny, welcome to the forum. Reference your enquiry, information is very scarce. Photographs rarely show any musicians other than pipers, and the only photos showing the band are usually so small that detail cannot be seen. Based on illustrations of a few years later which show leopard skin aprons being worn by the bass drummer (in this case the 92nd) we can reasonably assume that they would have been worn at the earlier date. Again, although lacking direct documentary evidence it is reasonable to assume that tenor drums would have been used but as to whether leopard skins would have been worn you pays your money and makes your choice. In my opinion it would either be leopards or nothing, I doubt the presence of any other form of apron. Incidently be careful about your dates as it was in 1868 that the Highland regiments changed from slashed cuffs to gauntlet cuffs.

 

[trooper]

Found this photograph while digging further through my files. Shows the Gordon Highlanders in 1867, no sign of tenor drums and the bass drummer is not wearing an apron. Still think it possible that leopardskins were worn in some regiments as there was no regulations regarding the accessories worn by the band.

 

[johnnybach]

Many thanks for the reply trooper. You are SO right about information being scarce around this area, and thanks for your considered opinion. I have been trying to talk myself into going with the tenor and bass drum option for quite a while - as it would be a much more interesting band WITH both. In fact, this was precisely WHY I asked my question of you guys!

I'm just about convinced to go with the Bass drummer for the band - and pretty certain on going with the leopard skin (with head) for him - BUT the TD is the instrument I'm less certain about. What I'm waiting for is someone to say "definitely not" to there being Tenor Drummers in Scottish highland regiments at around that time - and giving a darned good reason for it. If I don't get one - then I'm strongly tempted to go for it, because of the RA band drummer 30 odd years earlier - and the more recent popularity for them in Scots bands. I guess this is circumstantial evidence - but - "why not?"

Thanks also for reminding me about the change of cuff. I commited the cardinal sin of not adding "Circa" to my date. I did know that 21st Royal Scots Fusiliers, for example, had changed from a flapped cuff to a pointed one by 1868 - so just threw in a quick 1867 for a date for all. The gauntlet cuff will be easier to source for the drummers, so I may go for circa 1869 for all. Also, yes to the Britfarmer's request for photos of progress. As already stated though, this project is still in the "ideas" stage at present, and I have three other bands on the go, at present, so I may only begin in earnest in the Spring on the Cameron idea.

So thanks again to both for your input - much appreciated - especially for a new boy to the forum - and computers - anyone else with any advice out there please?
johnnybach

 

[johnnybach]

Wow - trooper, you have come up trumps with this photo! Interesting that the Bass Drummer has the old pattern cuffs - and is in white jacket (could be shell or doublet - can't quite make it out). Also, cheese drum of side drummer - and again, looks like the old cuffs - so definitely pre 1868. A bit worried again about the lack of any apron or skin though! Just when I was getting convinced - back come the nagging doubts.........
I' must admit - this is getting a bit obssesive with me! Thanks again, I'll sleep on it - johnnybach

 

[Arnhemjim]

You have presented a real investigative challenge. I have a reasonably extensive research library (specifically on the highland regiments) and was hard pressed to come up with all the answers. I did find a photograph of the band of the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment (Black Watch) Circa 1864 in a relatively recent book, The Black Watch, The Black Watch Photographic Archive, The Regimental Trustees, Tempus Publishing Limited, Gloucestershire, 2000, ISBN 0 7524 17630. It was taken at Simla an Indian hill station, and shows 27 musicians and the regimental pipe-major (no other pipers shown). They are wearing white drill jackets, kilts, plaits, white gaiters, rob roy hose tops, white buff waist belts, white hair sporrans with 5 short black tassels and white belts, and dark blue or black ‘pork pie” hats (like Gurkha pill boxes) with a circular Star of the Thistle badge directly in front.

Now for the instruments, I can discern; 2 trombones, 1 French horn, 1 Alto horn, 2 euphoniums, 2 flutes, 2 bassoons, 3 clarinets, 1 bass euphonium or baritone, 1 tuba, 4 trumpets, no drums visible.

You may want to get a copy of the book. Hope this provides some help.

Regards,
Arnhemjim

 

[trooper]

Wow - trooper, you have come up trumps with this photo! Interesting that the Bass Drummer has the old pattern cuffs - and is in white jacket (could be shell or doublet - can't quite make it out). Also, cheese drum of side drummer - and again, looks like the old cuffs - so definitely pre 1868. A bit worried again about the lack of any apron or skin though! Just when I was getting convinced - back come the nagging doubts.........
I' must admit - this is getting a bit obssesive with me! Thanks again, I'll sleep on it - johnnybach

Jackets are all doublets, slashed cuffs were not worn on shell jackets. Still rummaging, will post if any relevant turns up.

 

[nshighlander]

Hi
As far as I now the white shell were really only worn in India or places every hot or summer time.The tenor drum was never played in the Scottish Military Band,not really sure when they showed up with the pipes and drums.The Royal Marines use the tenor drum in there Military Bands.I`ll get back to you some time today with more info.A good friend of mine is a base and tenor export, thats what he plays. Also I have some mags on the Black Watch,Gordons,Royal Scots that should put somemore light on this.In the movie Waterloo the Black Watch use the tenors and I think the drummers had yellow tunics and the base drum was played on it`s side.The Royal Scots use Canadain Mountain Lion skins on there tenor drummers now.I`m not sure when that started.There sister reg is the Canadain Scottish Reg.Back soon,lots going on today.

Cheers
Dave

 

[johnnybach]

Hi Arnhemjim - thanks for the contribution - to my quest! It's feeling more like the search for the Holy Grail, at the moment. I WILL try to get hold of the book mentioned - and thanks for the list of instruments. No Bombardon then! I just love these - and try to sneak one in to lottsa bands I have done - so far.

Now then! - as they say in Leicestershire - back to the photo from trooper. I have a couple of questions about this - now I've had forty winks!

The laddie with the half - or cheese drum in the centre is wearing the red doublet with lace and the three button flap cuff, often called the French cuff, I believe (all correct there then for 1867). To his left is what I think is the Bass Drummer. He is wearing the white single breasted doublet with the same cuffs, no sporran and NO PLAID accross the chest (would get in the way a bit) - and no apron or leopard skin. Now, the laddie to the left of the bass drum - who is holding in his right hand a brass instrument (could be a tenor horn - I'm no expert on these) also has the white jacket with NO PLAID across his chest.(like the Bass Drummer) He also appears to have a different sporran! It's NOT the white one with the five red tassels of the other brass ploaying musicians - it looks like a darker one with three white tassels to me. The musician to his left and above also seems to have no chest plaid - again like the bass drummer!

Now then, hypothesis time, or as they say way out west, I believe,: "Lets run this up the flag-pole, and see who salutes it". COULD these two guys with no chest plaid be our phantom Tenor Drummers??? Could the chap with the horn just be holding it for the camera? If he was a horn player - why no chest plaid like the rest of the Brass players in the photo? Maybe there was no room for them to show them off? It may be also, that the Gordons just wern't wearing ANY form of apron at all for either the Bass drummer OR Tenor drummer(IF there were any?). I am being deliberately provocative here - to stimulate some more discussion - and hopefully find some more answers.

Thanks to all so far for the input. I'm not too hung up on what Regiment my band eventually will be. At the moment, I'm leaning more towards the Gordons - because of that lovely photo - thanks trooper.

Now - lets see if I can get hold of that book, Arnhemjim!

Thanks everyone, so far - johnnybach

 

[trooper]

Reference the points you make. The figure to the left of the bass drummer appears to be wearing a private's sporran. As to why I do not know, one can only suppose he had not yet been issued with the band version. Also there are at least three more figures wearing the scarlet doublet. Central and just to the right behind the bass drummer's head, and second row from the top the two figures on the extreme right. Now all of these appear to have a bugle cord over the left shoulder, the same as the drummer centre front and none of them have the red tip to the plume indicating band personel. There are several others in the group who also have plain white plumes but whose jackets cannot be distinguished. From this I would infer that they are the corps of drums among which it is possible that you would find the tenor drummer(s). However I am at a loss to explain the figure wearing the private's sporran as he also has a plain white plume. Maybe he has just been transferred to the band and has not received his full quota of kit!! I doubt he is your mysterious tenor drummer though, as he is still wearing a sporran, drummers usually dispense with them or wear them slung round on their right hip.

 

[johnnybach]

Thanks trooper - I am using a tiny screen here! So thanks for the detail I can't see - I THOUGHT some plumes looked white, idicating drummers - and some jackets red - but couldn't really tell fo sure. Agreed - to no sporrans on drummers - so maybe the guy is newish (like me) and IS a newly recruited horn player - who couldn't get hold of the musician's sporran for the photo.

Hi to nshighlander. I agree on your point about shell jackets in hot climates like India or Africa - also believe they sometimes practiced before "Big Gigs" in shells, to keep the best bib & tucker clean & tidy for the show! Of course - silly me - drill jackets had pointed cuffs in red for musicians in 1880 and Simkin shows a sergeant in undress white jacket in 1877 with a plain cuff - so the musicians in troopers photo IS wearing the doublet.
Yes - that's the key question now: "When did tenor drums show up with the Pipes & Drums". However, WHEN they did - they would have worn the RED Doublet - though we still don't know what kind of apron (if any) they wore. Is this my correct understanding?
Thanks also for looking around further for me

Regards to all - I feel like I'm not so lost anymore

Note for Arnhemjim - just ordered book on Amazon for 95pence plus postage!! wot a bargin! Thanks.

 

[trooper]

Have found that only side drums were issued by Ordnance and leg aprons of buff leather, (not worn by Highland drummers). All other instruments and accoutrements such as animal skins would have been supplied by the officers. So there would obviously be a great variation dependant upon the wealth of each regiment. Judging by the photograph of the bass drummer it would appear that the Gordons had not adopted leopardskin aprons at this particular time. Have also been through the regimental history and there again is no mention of aprons or tenor drums.

 

[johnnybach]

Thanks for the latest info trooper. Looks like that's it then regarding the question of tenor drummers at that time - there weren't any. I had afeeling that may be the case when I saw your photograph - which is as close to being primary evidence as I suppose we're going to get! It was also interesting to see that the Bass drummer didn't have any apron. Once again, I'm fine with that. As I intend to use Dorset Soldier castings (Giles is a good friend of mine - and is very accomodating - unlike many other suppliers), I will ask him to provide a body and arms to suit.
So, unless we get any further evidence to the contrary, I will probably base some elements of my proposed group on this photo of the Gordons,around the mid 1860's (depending on cuffs available!) and have the following:

Drums

One Bass drummer - no apron - white musicians doublet. (NB to march with the musicians - close to cymbalist)

Probably around ten side drummers - half with the cheese drum - as in your picture
the others with regular side-drums. I think I will go with red doublets for these - to go with my piper section, as the musicians in white will bring up the rear.

Your picture, however, has left me with another dilema.

The Drum Major (centre) appears to be wearing a white doublet and not the red of the drummers. Also, some of the pictured bandsmen have white doublets of bandsmen (musicians?) and the white plume of drummers in their bonnets.

Would I be wrong to have all the drummers and their drum major in red?

What I want is a Colour party - pipe and drum band _FOLLOWED by the band (funded by the Officers - so there must have been quite a few wealthy ones for the lot in the photo).

I think you're my best bet to adjudicate, trooper - as it is your (lovely) picture?

Many thanks for all of your time and patience - MUCH appreciated - to everyone who took the time out to help a struggling Taff! Is it worth keeping this thread open - as I'm a bit new to this Maybe for the future, it might be worth establishing just WHEN was the earliest time we can establish when tenor drummers began in Scottish regiments. At present, nobody seems able to give a definitive answer - what do you all think?
,
regards, johnnybach

 

[trooper]

I think the figure you refer to as the drum major is in fact the Band Sergeant. The Drum major would be in charge of the drums and would be wearing red. The Band Sergeant would have charge of the musicians.
Your diorama should consist of the colour party, two officers with colours (Queen's on the right, regimental on the left) with three sergeants as escort with the RSM behind, followed by the drum major leading the pipes and drums with the pipe major being the right hand man in the front rank. The band immediately behind. The regiment would follow behind led by the mounted colonel.
As to when the regiment got tenor drums we can only hope that some information will turn up, in the meantime I'll keep looking.

 

[nshighlander]

Hi
I`m still looking but as far as I tell the tenor drum was only in the pipeband.I`m still looking into the date when it showed up in the pipeband.I`ve sent some emails to instructors at the Army school of pipeing and drumming in Edinburgh.
Cheers
Dave

 

[johnnybach]

Many thanks to nshighlander for persevering with the search for the phantom tenor drummers! I had no idea you guys would be so persistent.

Thanks also to trooper for reminding me of the difference between the Drum Major and his responsibilities and the band leader - who of course would be a senior NCO. Thanks also for the order of march for the whole group. I will give this a bit more thought too - as the search for the ellusive drummer seems to have taken over my thoughts entirely from my original idea.

I now have a very much clearer idea of what I want in my group than when I began. Whether or not I have a tenor drummer or two in with the pipes & drums, I am clear that the Bass Drummer will be a musician, in white doublet, wearing no apron or skin at this time period. Now I must confess, I didn't know that when I started. I probably would have put him in a red doublet and leopard skin with the other side drummers - if I hadn't asked my question first.

If any information DOES come to light on tenor drums for any other regiment than the Camerons or Gordons, then I'll re-think my project. But if it doesn't, I'm tempted to go with the Gordons in the photo.

I would, however, still love to know the earliest date that can be ascertained for the inclusion of tenor drummers in ANY Scottish regiment - well - don't you?

My last question though, goes back to troopers photo, and is about the two musicians who don't appear to have the plaid across their chests - just like the Bass Drummer. I can't help wondering why? With the Bass drummer it's obvious - but why not for those two others? Any ideas???

Thanks agin to all for your interest - very much appreciated - johnnybach

 

[trooper]

It would appear that the tenor drum was not adopted until quite late in the Highland regiments. The picture below shows the Gordon's Corps of Drums in 1897, as can be seen it consisted of eight side drummers, a bass drummer, eight fifers and a Drum Major. I have found a similar picture of another regiment which shows the same thing. Will continue searching to see if we can establish at least an approximate date.

 

[johnnybach]

Hi trooper - many thanks for the continued interest in what has become now, the search for the original tenor drummer in a Highland regiment. One of the several interesting points for me in the current photo (1897) is that the Bass Drummer is now a member of the Corps of Drums - unlike the earlier photo from you, some thirty years earlier when he was dressed as a musician (white doublet - no apron). He is also now wearing a leopard skin as an apron, and red doublet (post- 1873), whilst most wear glengarries and not the bonnet.

Superb photographic evidence - so many thanks for it.

You may be interested to note, that I followed up on a tip from Arnhemjim - and purchased the book suggested "The Black Watch: The Black Watch Photographic Archive" (2OOO) [thanks buddy!] from Amazon.uk for the grand sum of 95 pence(plus postage)! It's a corker! and begins with a section of photographs from 1852 - 1881 - which may be of interest to you and others. Page 13 shows the 42nd Depot personnel paraded at Stirling Castle. The pipers and musicians are shown out front - many of whom are bandboys. Interestingly for me, the Bass Drummer is shown in a dark coloured doublet ( so red) with French cuffs - AND a white apron from just above the waist - down to knee level. It is quite clearly affixed to a button on his doublet - as he is holding the drum to the side. As this is exactly the same year (1867) as your earlier Gordon's photo with Bass drummer in white doublet - it indicates that there was quite a bit of latitude between regiments as to what kit their bandsmen wore around this time.

This is good news for me - as it gives me a lot more choices that I can make, as to what particular unit and dress I choose for the group I eventually intend to produce in toy-soldier form. Sorry I cant send the pictures from the book - as I don't have the kit here to do it - but will be OK once I get back to base - unless you invest 95 pence in a copy of your own!

Another photo on page 11 - shows a group of the 73rd bandsmen ( became 2nd Battn of 42nd again in 1881 reform) in Plymouth in 1862. One of the group appears to be holding a Bombardon. Now I haven't got on to discussing the musical instruments of the band yet - but this is one of my favourite instruments - as it looks so spectacular. Now, regardless of whether any PARTICULAR regiment can be proven - or not - to have had one at the time, mu
my usual view is - IF there COULD have been one around at the time in question - then I CAN put one in! I guess what I'm saying is - do you have a photo of a Highlander in a white doublet playing a Bombardon (the Helical coil one)? I know its a bit cheeky - 'cos you have searched out a lot of stuff for me already - but - if I don't ask..............?

Lastly - a quickie for nshighlander - any response yet from the School of Drumming & Piping in Bonnie Scotland - as to earliest tenor drummer???

Once again, thanks to all three of you for getting and continuing interested. I am becoming more and more convinced that tenor drums are going to come later than the turn of the century, i.e post-1900 - and maybe a good deal later than that.

Lastly - would it help if I list the figures I intend having in my group - which will be approaching sixty or so?? This may help me from making a blunder. I intend to go for something like best quality Britains - 'cos that's what I like - besides, I'm no military modeller - not good enough - but love the genuine "toy" soldier.

Thanks for now, johnnybach