Advice required for Highland Band (3 Viewers)

[trooper]

Hi Johnny,
Further to the last here is a photo of the Gordon's Corps of Drums in 1903 showing that even that late there were no tenor drums. The second picture is of the Gordon band in tropical dress c.1890 with your bombardon prominently displayed. Haven't yet found one of the band in 1867 but would assume that it would have been quite possible to have been included in the band at that date.
I am familiar with the book on the Black Watch. You might be interested to know that the same company (Tempus) also produced "Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders" by Alastair Campbell of Airds ISBN no 0 7524 3538 8

 

[johnnybach]

Hi again trooper - I'm getting a sneaky feeling that you are a Gordon's fan! You also seem to be sitting in the lending department of a military history library. You have shown me some super pictures of musical instruments here again. Not just one bombardon - but two AND a lyre harp nonchantly leaning on a monster bass drum too. Thanks chum, much appreciated again. I am getting more and more convinced that tenor drums are not going to be found in Highland bands in the 1860's. It would be nice to find some evidence of precisely when - but if not - well, that's life I guess. I am very pleased though with what has turned up so far - and have been busy working out what I CAN put into the band in their place. The half-drums ( or cheese-drums as they seem frequently called) look good to add into the pipe & drum element. The bass drummer would clearly look good with the military band in white doublet, with or without a half apron ( both seemed to be around in 1867) - and as to my favourite brass instrument - the bombardon - well, would love to put one or two in - but will need to check whether it will fit on to a kilted piper in full bonnet with chest and shoulder plaid. Might be a tad tight! It's one thing to play one in white tropical suit in 1890 - another in that full garb. My instinct says "put some in", but I will check it out first.

I'll check out that book you mention in the morning. I do have an Argyle pipe and drum band already in my cabinet - but that was an "off the shelf" one from Mountford miniatures, so no research was necessary. This is MUCH more fun, i.e going for a time period where much seems obscure - and trying to work out what COULD have been possible. I do however, know my limits, so what you and the other contributors are doing is fill out details I just don't have the knowledge and experience to do. I do feel I'm getting there though, so thanks again for all of your help.

Regards, johnnybach

 

[trooper]

Reference your comments on the bombardon player in full dress. I should think that if it did present a problem the musician would have worn the shoulder or "fly" plaid.

 

[johnnybach]

Hi yet again trooper - and thanks for the suggestion to adapt to just the fly. I see what you mean. I have recently finished a Royal Scots Grey mounted figure playing a bombardon - as part of a mounted band. He's a re-cast Britains figure produced by them c.1930 - though my band will eventually have extra instruments that Britains never did. (If anyone is interested - contact Giles at Dorset Soldiers for details). The problem with this figure, was that it was tricky trying to get the instrument over the bearskin cap and plume worn by said musicians - to rest on the shoulder. I found that it was best to partly paint the figure and behead him - then place the pre-painted instrument correctly - and re-attach the head by drilling, pinning and re-touching the paintwork. As I like "best Britains" glossy toy-soldier finish - no problemo! What I was referring to in my comment was, therefore, the practicalities involved in doing this to the figure I intend to use for the highand bandsman. By just having the fly plaid - it would make it easier to do - if it becomes necessary to behead etc. In other words, I was "thinking out loud" the potential problems.
In my experience, adapted figures CAN sometimes look a bit awkward - when parts from one figure are attempted to married to another. There' really only one way to find out - give it a try! My "spares box" is always there if it doesn't work.
I suppose that the Ophicleid is JUST ABOUT a contendor - although it was a difficult instrument to play and was being replaced by the tuba by 1860-1870. Another reason that I like this time period is because I like bands to have the older and more unusual instruments in them. That's why I value such photos as you have posted trooper, they are good evidence for not just the band pictured - but also what was around at the time. The lyre propped against the Bass drum in 1890 is a case in point - as are the two bombardons - which if you look closely, are of two different sizes.
I am also thinking of including a couple of Saxophones - patented in 1841 by Mr Sax with military bands in mind. My group (in my head) currently stands at around 65 pieces, so should fill a complete shelf of my cabinet if they march 5 abreast.
Luverly!
Thanks guys - for all help and suggestions so far. As soon as I have finished the Scots Greys already mentioned - a Mounties band (c.1930), Napoleonic Band(c.1807-1815 ish) and a WW1. British Line Infantry band, that are patiently waiting in various stages of development, I can get cracking on this one - which I can now picture in my head much better due to the input received. As to the tenor drummer - I think he's had it for 1867-9 - though will await any response nshighlander gets from Edinburgh with relish. If he finds out when - I think another project becons! Any more suggestions please? Regards and thanks from johnnybach
PS trooper - just ordered the book - thanks.

 

[johnnybach]

Just a minute - trooper - have another close look at the photo posted Gordons orps of Drums 1903. Look really closely at the centre drums - on edge - nixt to Fido!. Are there two drums - as I first thought - or is that three? The front one is a side-drum on edge, and the rear one is a bass - BUT - is that another sized one between - which COULD be a tenor? As you have the original, you're best placed to give it a good look with a glass - and it may just be my fancy, or a trick of the light but.........................it COULD be??
johnnybach

 

[trooper]

No johnny,looks like the ticken drum cover that was often rolled and attached to the side of the drum.

 

[johnnybach]

Ah - so that's what it is. Thanks for having a closer look though. I don't have all of my kit here, so couldn't really put it under the magnifier. I think I'm becoming a bit obsessed!! My wife's getting in on the act too - we had chicken drumsticks !!!johnnybach

 

[johnnybach]

Hi everyone interested in answers to the questions raised about whether bass and tenor drummers were around in Highland bands around the time period when musicians in said bands wore white doublets: (i.e 1855 - 1873). I chose these dates because it is generally accepted that the doublet came in after 1855 - whilst white doublet jackets were replaced in military bands from 1873, for various reasons - including, perhaps obviously, the difficulty of keeping them clean.

My original idea was to produce a toy-soldier Highland band, from castings, to include a Pipe & Drum element - and a Military band element around the1867 - 1871 time-frame, so that I could include musicians in the white doublet -with the further idea of possible inclusion of tenor drummers - if it could be shown that they were around in any Scots band at the time.

I have been informed by nshighlander, that a response to a query from him about the subject from the School of Piping and Drumming in Edinburgh has been received - which casts doubt about this liklihood. The query apparently did cause a bit of debate there - and some head scratching - BUT no evidence for tenor drummers could be found. The reply received suggested that it was unlikely that any definitive date could ever be found, although around the time of the first Boer war, certain drums were known to have existed in some regiments that were of a larger size than today's side drums. the reply also mentions that some drums in the Royal Scots museum - captured in the Napoleonic Wars resemble tenor drums - but it is anyones guess when such instruments came to be known as tenors. The general cosensus of opinion seems that tenor drums evolved - probably as some fad - at some indeterminate time in the past.

Photographic evidence unearted by "trooper" appears to confirm that around 1867 - in The Gordon's certainly, no such drums appear to be present. As to whether aprons were worn by Bass drummers at that date, which was a supplementary question of mine - well,the Gordon's photo shows a Bass drummer in musicians white doublet wearing NO apron - whilst another of the Black Watch band, also taken in 1867, shows the Bass Drummer in a red doublet WEARING a white apron. (see in The Black Watch : Photographic Archive, 2000, bottom photo, page 13).

Thus, we can say with some certainty that at least two Highland Regiments had Bass Drummers at that time - though there appeared to be a certain differences, as to in which section they played ( in the Military Band - with white doublets - OR in the Pipes and Drums section with red doublets). This certainly agrees with Bill Carman's assertion that there was considerable latitude given to Regiments as to how their bands were dressed around this time - doubtless because they were mainly funded privately from the Officers Mess. (see in W.Y.Carman 1985; Richard Simkin's Uniforms of the British Army: the Infantry Regiments).

I guess, therefore, this is a long-winded way of saying that there won't be any tenor drummers in my proposed band. I have, however, found out a lot of information about such bands along this journey - and made a number of firm friends in this - my first excursion into the forum.

Many thanks for all of your help, advice and knowledge this time around. Unless any further evidence arises to the contrary, I feel we have to leave it there. If anyone else finds the information useful - then that's a bonus - and that's why I've explained it as fully as I have. As for me - I'm already planning the structure of my new project - and will keep anyone interested posted - as I am now "hooked" on the forum.

Many thanks everyone - johnnybach

 

[craig1985taylor]

Jonny thanks for the informative summery of what the School of Piping had to say on the subject, I've been following this thread with great interest & have found out a lot of useful infomation from you guys along the way now I'm really looking forward to seeing your band take shape! please post photos often after you undertake each step in the making process, this sounds like an excellent set.

Craig

 

[johnnybach]

Hi Craig - I certainly will do - once I get around to ordering my castings. I KNOW you are interested in Scots bands - 'cos whilst I have been undertaking this project with a lotta help from my friends, I have been finding out how this site works too - and I've had a sneaky peek at your albums!

I have been thinking about the project for quite a while now - and have worked out with my casting supplier (Giles at Dorset), what I MIGHT need from him - and what I might need to scratch-build or canabalise from other sources - in order to make what I want.

What I have found out from this part of my research - is that it will probably be best to use the part of the band which I'm MOST interested in (the musicians - as the World and his wife seem to do pipe and drum bands) as the starting point. So I think I have decided to use troopers photo of the Gordons around 1867, as the basis of the whole group, ( S probably Gordons) though it could be dated 1871 yet - for another set of reasons - and look something like this:

1. Colour Party - Two ensigns, three Colour Sgts plus Sergeant Major.

2. Pipes and Drums - Five side drummers - five "cheese" side drummers (half-drums)
Eight to ten pipers (one as pipe-major), led by Drum Major.

3. Band - Around twenty-five to thirty musicians. They will be playing a mixture of
instruments which COULD have been around at the time. i.e they were known to have been played at that date. For example, trombones, trumpets, clarinets - even
my favourite bombardons can be seen in old photos around this time. A Bass drummer would be in this group too. My list includes one Ophicleide and Tuba - although it is pretty well documentedthat by mid 1860 - the former instrument was being replaced in many bands by the latter. (It seems a good idea to me, to mark such a changeover by having both in this band at the same time. I may even go for something more unusal such as a bell-lyre - which showed up in another photo from trooper - just a
few years later (A bit more research and reading yet before I can commit to using this instrument - but I hope you get the picture).

4. Lastly, a mounted Colonel, followed by a couple of Officers on foot - and a company
from the Regiment - say 10-15 highlanders marching with weapons at the
slope - or shoulder - haven't decided that bit yet.

This could be a 60-70 figure group (about one shelf of my cabinet) and be a bit different and more colourful than most - I hope. There are a few more things to firm up on yet - and quite a few other projects to get around to before I start - but I will progress it - probably in the spring. I will doubtless change my mind over some detail or other - but that's the framework of my thinking this far.

I WILL keep you posted as to progress on this one, and may also post some of my other stuff when I get back to my work-desk and collection in France. Thanks for the interest - and support from my other friends so far. johnnybach

 

[trooper]

Thus, we can say with some certainty that at least two Highland Regiments had Bass Drummers at that time - though there appeared to be a certain differences, as to in which section they played ( in the Military Band - with white doublets - OR in the Pipes and Drums section with red doublets). This certainly agrees with Bill Carman's assertion that there was considerable latitude given to Regiments as to how their bands were dressed around this time - doubtless because they were mainly funded privately from the Officers Mess. (see in W.Y.Carman 1985; Richard Simkin's Uniforms of the British Army: the Infantry Regiments).

Not only was there latitgude given as to the dress but also to the instrumentation of the band. Bandmasters appear to have introduced various instruments according to their own ideas as to harmony and sound. With regard to the bass drummers as their original purpose was as timebeaters there would always be one in the band. The inclusion of them in the corps of drums falls into the same category as the tenor drum argument, some did and some didn't. Interestingly in the modern army the bass drummer of the band has a different size bass drum to that in the corps of drums. The latter being thinner, which I presume gives a different note. See attached.

 

[johnnybach]

Well trooper - that's something else I have learned since asking my question originally. I haden't noticed that before with the Bass Drum. Yes - I did know about the "time beater" name - and the "good news" for me, is that I could include the bass Drummer in either the Pipe & Drum section OR the Military Band section of my group. As I always strive for historical accuracy WHEREVER POSSIBLE - I have decided to use your photo of the Gordons in 1867 as the basis for the band. I think I'm going to move the time to 1871however, due to a number of other factors.

1. Colour Sergeants - In 1868, right arm rank badge changed to crossed union flags with crown above and three chevrons. I rather like this option.
2. Sgt Major - rank badge on lower sleeves - above gauntlet cuffs (which came in in 1868 - as you have previously reminded me. [My only detail to check out here is whether they were point up ,as Bill Carmen states in his "Dictionary of Military Uniforms - look under "Chevrons". OR look at photo of Sgt Mjr. Motion on page 14 of Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders - which shows stripes and crown on BOTH arms with points down!] See - I did buy it and have a good look - cheers chum! As the photo is marked circa 1870 - Im more inclined to go with Bill - who probably knew more about uniforms than anyone else I can think of!
3. The closer I get to the turn of the century, the MORE likely it is to find out more about instruments LIKELY to have been about - as instanced by the bell lyre casually propped against the drum in another of your pictures. Okay, it's only five years on, but IF a tenor drum picture does turn up that indicates they were around then - I can always ADD a couple at any time!

4. Band Sergeant. Incidentally, I think that I will have band master in the band with four stripes on upper arm - actually playing a clarinet. Well, if its good enough for Chas Stadden - it's certainly good enough for me! As these guys were known to march and play in the band - to emerge and conduct ONLY when the band was stationary - seems okay to me.

As I won't be ordering any bits until the spring - I have some time left to think about some other questions.
The castings I will be using as the basis for my figures will need other bits and pieces. I will need to source dirks for pipers and drummers - and also bugles to hang at the side of the drummers. The weapons carried by CP and Regiment will need changing - as the ones I will be using are wrong. Giles has promised to help with some bits - but need to check out more detail yet. One piece of good news (for me) is that I think I already have the mounted Colonel and the other two marching officers sorted out. Dorset have a page in their catalogue "Britains re-visited" which shows such a mounted officer - a Britains re-cast, which will be just right. I also donated an old Britains to re-cast last year, which will be fine for the two on foot. So - I have three sorted already - just another 60-odd to go!
As you can probably see - my somewhat innocent little question has certainly made me think A LOT harder - and come up with more options than I began with. My original idea was for a group of around 25 figures - but so many ideas have buzzed around since asking - I'm currently up to abut 70 or so. Many, many thanks for that - both to you and the others. Very much appreciated for now. I may change my mind though, when all of those little silver bits and pieces arrive in the post!
Regards - johnnybach

 

[johnnybach]

Hey - trooper (or should that be yo?) I almost forgot to add - re the Tenor Drummer question. Perhaps we can stimulate others to search out pictures by my beginning with this:
The earliest photo of what appear to be tenor drums in a pile, that I can find, is the photo in "Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders" by Alastair Campbell (2005), bottom photo on page 59. This is dated from 1935-1937; - sorry can't post it as I haven't got my kit here. This shows a Bass drum, two tenors and five side drums. It also shows three drummers wearing leopard skin aprons.

So we start with 1935 as earliest date.

Can anyone find an earlier photo than this (a) showing tenor drums - and/or (b) drummers wearing an animal skin? Real photos please - not toy soldier versions!

Good game this eh? - johnnybach

 

[nshighlander]

Hi
I`ll try and scan and post some pictures.My daughter is the computer wizz in the house.If you can Johnny try and find the magazines called "The Regiment".I have one on the BW,ASH,The Highlanders,Royal Scots.Lots of info on the Regiments,plus pictures.I`ve found them on EBAY.
Cheers
Dave

 

[trooper]

Johnny, as you have changed the date of your venture you might be interested in one of the following photos which shows the instrumentation of the Gordons in greater detail and is dated 1880. So far the earliest photo I have found for the wearing of animal skins in the regiment is 1890, shown in the second photo. Is this interest in tenor drums and animal skins confined to the Scottish regiments or to any British regiment? If the latter then I will extend the search.

 

[johnnybach]

Hi trooper. Yet again, the extent of your archive material is astonishing. Many thanks for the latest photos - which are just wonderful.

My interset in bandsreally developed out of my liking for the ceremonial nature of many shiny toy soldiers seen, whilst my hobby has developed. Do you know of "Bill the Bandsman"?? I think he has now retired from production of mainly bands - but for a few years now, I just loved looking at his products on the internet.

Now - as you know - I'm NOT JUST a collector, my hobby is really painting castings. Whilst I have the greatest respect for collectors who buy and discuss many of the highly priced offerings of commercial producers, I don't have (or better and perhaps more accurate to say) WANT to use the funds available to buy ready-made toy soldiers. For me, it is far more satisfying to see something, either in life, picture or toy soldier - and then try to replicate it myself - almost from scratch (i.e buy or adapt castings). I guess I would really like to fill the void left by Bill, if I could.

I have made, or am in the process of making, many bands. A Recent example would be the German SS band circa 1938 made by K&C. These are around the £30 apiece area - and are superb. As soon as I saw them - I wanted a band - but at that sort of money - it wasn't for me. However...... a bit of thought and an internet chat saw a band that looks very much like them take shape from the unlikliest source - a Roumanian soldier body )with milliput changes), provided the basis for the figure - and various arms/instruments from other castingsprovided those - a bit of scratch-built webbing added and Bingo! The result is a band some 34 members strong which is SIMILAR to K&C's for around £120, which is currently marching across my cabinet shelves in France.
The sense of achievment is enormous - and - my bank manager would approve!

Highland regiments seem to have clung on to their colourfull and distinctive uniforms for longer than most of the others - so are just the latest of my interests. I found Bill Carman's book whilst looking at Richard Simkins' watercolours of British Army uniforms - and this triggered the idea of having a band in the white jackets, the most colourful of which seemed to be the Scots in their doublet version. As I also like Colour Parties - I thought I would add them in - and Pipes & Drums seemed natural too for a Scots version. Your idea of a few of the regiment following on came out of my initial question in this forum - as did the change of date to 1871 - because of what I have found out about uniform changes (rife at this period) and the practicalities of what is to be found in the castings world. My castings supplier for this band will be Giles at Dorset - who has confirmed with me that he can supply the "Gauntlet cuff" highlander I will need - (so can't be pre 1868, as originally thought), whilst rankbadge changes means that 1871 will give me a better looking outfit. I cannot go beyond 1873 - as the bands changed from white to red jackets/doublets then. Does that explain the date change and why I like the jocks?

The interest in tenor drums - and when they first started in highland bands came out of the lack of any in Bill carman's book. I found out from Wikipedia that there was a known example in an RE band in 1835. These were apparently not often played - but put in for the "flourish" spectacle they provided. When the animal skins began was also a question which just seemed to fall ot of this interest of mine.

Sorry for such a long reply, but yes, I would be interested in any other offerings you could make from your obviously extensive reference library. I do intend to make more bands. I am nearly there with A Scots Greys Mounted Band (c.1890) which came out of a re-cast 1930's Britains figure (with extra instruments). I have picked up some extra bits whilst in the UK to finish some off. Can't show you yet - as don't have all the kit in the UK - but I will, if you like in the future. I guess an RE band circa 1835 might be a possibility for some time ahead???

I can't tell you how much your archive stuff is appreciated - but believe me, it is.
Thanks again trooper - johnnybach

 

[johnnybach]

Hi Dave

Thanks for the info - I understand the daughter expert bit - 'cos I have one of those too. She is going to show me how to send photos(again) at Xmas - so I should be able to make an album on this means. Any photos you can post will be greatfully received - as are the ones from trooper. I'm beginning to make up my own dossier from any and all - as I - like you - love Scots bands! Pity the Welsh kilt never really took off - though having seen enough knobbly knees in the showers when I was in the mob - perhaps it's just as well. Regards - johnnybach

 

[johnnybach]

Hello to all interested in the use of Tenor Drums in British Army bands. I would like to correct an error I made in the previous post. In one paragraph I referred to " the earliest known use of a tenor drum in the British army was in the RE in 135. Ooops !- this should have read RA (Royal Artillery) in 1835. Sorry about that.

Incidentally, for those interested, this information comes from the publication " A Brief History of the Military Drum; leading to the evolution of Pipe Band Drumming" which was co-written by Drum Mjr. Wilson Young, and Drum Mjr. Alan Chatto.(pub 2000).

 

[trooper]

Earliest dates found so far. Tenor drum 1896 South Wales Borderers, and animal skins 1866 East Lancs Regiment.

 

[johnnybach]

Hurrah for the Welsh! We love our bands - look you!

Surprisingly early for the use of skins by the East Lancs.

I will certainly file away those two little gems of information for possible future use. I think that I already have a tenor drummer in an existing SWB band. I bought it off the shelf (castings version) from Sarum - before he gave up the trade! In those days, I took things a bit more for granted than I do now!

Many thanks for your encyclopedic knowledge, archive material, and friendship trooper. All of your help is very much appreciated. I think that all I have to do now - is get cracking on finishing off quite a few projects - in order that I progress this one. Snag is, I have already "bumped into" yet another thought, based on what I have read in this search for information.

As mentioned before, Giles has confirmed now, that he will have just about all of the bits needed by Springtime - so all seems set to go then. We have a small bit of work to do on weaponary - but that's about it - I think. I will maybe try to finalise just what instruments I want in the band. Your photos have helped considerably here - as they appear to be quite heavy on brass especially at the deeper end of the spectrum! There appear to be a lot of euphoniums and tubas around. I think that I will be a bit more adventurous in this area though. As you rightly say, the Bandmaster had considerable lattitude in his choice of instrument for the band. To all intents then - I am "the bandmaster" for this project!

I am currently THINKING about squeezing in the Bell Lyre and Sax, though NOT because I have found photos to PROVE they were there in 1871 - but KNOW they COULD have been. The tenor drum question, however, was a bit different. I couldn't say - hand on heart - that they COULD have been - and, it appears, nobody else can either! As I told someone the other day - IF I just put one in, then I may as well make a medieval band, and put someone in playing a harmonica!

Now that I know that the first known use of tenor drums in the British Army was in the RA around 1835 - this has kicked off yet another idea!! Simkins shows a gorgeously attired Drum Major in his "Blue Book ,(Carman, 1985, plate 106b, p.190). I would love to have one. He's shown in 1840, so said drummer would fit in...... look out...... I'm off again! Please don't investigate yet though - as this is a very early "ideas stage" project - and I have enough to get on with now! This one MAY be a future one. Interesting period in history this - eh?

Thanks for all of your help, encouragement and advice so far my friend. This is very much appreciated. regards, johnnybach

PS found this whilst reading last night - seems appropriate, as an early use of the drum as a warning instrument.

"Take my drum to England
Hang it by the shore,
Strike it when your powder's running low.
If the Dons sight Devon, I'll quit the port o'heaven,
And drum them up the channel as we drummed them long ago"

by Sir Henry Newbolt - referring to Drake's Drum.

Wonder if it was a tenor? - Stirs the blood a bit - don't you think?