Advice required for Highland Band (2 Viewers)

Hi Dave - are you a member of the Pipe & DrumbBands Forum? If as I suspect you may be - do you think you could ask some of their members:

1. When was the first tenor drum in use in a Scots Military Band - and what Regiment?

2. When were animal skins first worn by Scots Military Bands - and what regiment?

Just an idea - someone there might know -johnnybach
 
Johnny, thought you might find this photo of the Gordon's Drum major useful. It dates from 1879.
Also you mentioned Drake's Drum and the possibility (?) of it being a tenor. as you will see from the attached it is a time beaters type. Legend has it that it beats when trouble threatens England, in that case it should be going like Ringo Starr on speed at the present time!
 

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Hi - trooper What a cracking photo of a drummie! - thankyou. Looks like he could do with a square meal or two though - very narrow shoulders. The Baldrick detail will be very useful, though my laddie will have a doublet.

Love the drum - never actually seen that pic - is it a reconstruction?

Didn't mention before - but interesting how wide the old Bass drums in the early bands were. I'm going to ask Giles for the widest he has. I have done a very old band (Royal Regiment), with a Long Drum - which was interesting. Once I get back home, I will have to get to grips with learning how to create albums and post pictures. Then I can show some stuff.

Anyway - have to beat it now (groan) as the Commandant has just advised Grub's Up

johnnybach
 
Hi everyone still interested - thanks for all of the input this far in my journey. I think I am reasonably clear on quite a lot of things now.

The Regiment is sorted - Gordons - and the date I think (unless anything else falls out of the woodwork) is going to be circa 1871. Thhe next thing to consider is the band.

I want these to wear the white doublet which they wore until changing to red in 1873. This will have red facings, collar, cuffs, wings and piping. Cuffs will be of the pointed variety - as Carman notes that these changed from the old style French cuff in 1865.

As the band will be based on troopers photo - I will need around thirty musicians which will march five abreast - so will need six ranks. I think I would like to next explain the instruments and how these lay-out. I want to make the band look interesting, so intend to include some instruments which cannot be seen in the photo - BUT were around at the time, so MAY have been included ( by an enlightened Bandmaster). It is pretty certain by the number of musicians in the picture, the band seemed wealthy enough to have supported them.

Drum Major

First rank; trombone, cymbalist, Bass Drum, Bell-lyre, trombone

Second rank; Clarinet, Flute, Cornet, Flute, Clarinet (Bandmaster)

Third rank: Bassoon, Tenor Hn., Cornet, Tenor Hn., Bassoon

Fourth rank; French Hn., Sax, Euphonium, Sax, French Hn.

Fifth rank; Euphonium, Tuba, Euphonium, Tuba, Euphonium

Sixth rank; Bombardon, Ophicleid, Tuba, Ophicleid, Bombardon


REGIMENTAL GROUP TO FOLLOW


The above contains a few instruments that may be contentious.

The bell lyre has turned up in one of troopers photos whilst the Gordons were abroad in 1890. My proposal to bring it forward 19 years is OK historically - but not based on any evidence that they had one in 1871. Any objections?

There is no bombardon shown in the above photo - and to be fair - you can't really miss it. BUT - I do have a photo of one in the Argyle's band in 1874. So, the instrument was around in Scotland at roughly this time, whilst it was first introduced to a band (in Prussia) in 1831, so had been around for quite a while and was a popular instrument. My proposal to put one in to the Gordons band is simple. I like it!
It COULD have been there though - 'cos the Black Watch also had one in 1862 - (I have a photo in a book).

The Ophicleid, was really the father of the tuba. It was going "out of fashion" in military bands between 1860-1870, and being replaced in many by the easier to play tuba. It doesn't look tremendously different to the tuba - but different enough to look interesting. It is this changeover I would like to note - by using both instruments in the band.

As to the Saxophone - well a lot of people are surprised to learn that it was patented by Adolphe Sax in 1841. He intended it for use in military bands - and it was popular. I have no evidence that it was being used by Scots bands around this time yet. Was it around in 1871 with the Gordons? Anybody out there know???

If anyone has any serious objections to the above PLEASE let me know. I would hate to produce the band - and find out later that it's wrong!

That's about all for this instalment. Any observations greatfully received. To leave with my favourite quote of the day: (I literally found itr today), from Richard Strauss (not the cricketer - the composer).

" Never look at the trombones...........it only encourages them!"

Have a nice one - johnnybach
 
Hi Johnny, you have omitted a side drum in the band. I think you will find that this was always included to provide the twiddly percussion to the metronomic sound of the bass drum. Band side drummers were always uniformed in white as the band, while the corps of drums wore red. Moving on slightly from the band, when assembling your figures don't forget that the mounted officer would carry the triple barred hilted sword, not the Highland broadsword.
 
Further to my previous, study of photographs of various bands and corps of drums lead me to the conclusion that the band side drummer would probably have used the smaller, narrow drum while the corps of drums would have used the conventional sized drum and (possibly) a bass drum.
 
Hi trooper Thanks for those detail points, this is just what I was after!
I did think about the side-drummer because of the guys with the white plumed hackles in their bonnets in the picture I'm working to. They are clearly side-drummers, clad in the white doublet. However, I then initially rejected the idea and instead moved the Bass drummer and the cymbalist up to the front of the band, where they would be immediately behind the ten side-drummers of the Pipe & Drum section. This of course, is a most unusal arrangement - but I HAVE seen it done (in photos) before (e.g in The Black Watch Photographic Archive, 2000, p.50).
That's easily rectified by moving out the Bell lyre and substituting him with a side-drummer. Come to think of it, I may have a couple - looks more symetrical. I'll have a play around with my arrangement and try it out again. Thanks very much for that detail, as I must admit, it was nagging away at me a bit.

The sword you mention, might be a bit more tricky. I will be using as the mounted officer a re-cast Britains figure. He's the one that was issued wearing trews, of course and accompanied by some marching kilted bretheren. I don't have all of my books here, so can't look up the number. He is a super figure - and has sword in scabbard. I was thinking of adapting him by (a) removing sword hilt from scabbard by surgery - and (b) replacing his empty right arm with another carrying sword - and then using milliput on his hand/sword hilt to represent the new hilt.

My next question therefore, is do you have a photo of such a monster Hilt?

Last question is something that struck me last night. (I'm even dreaming about it now!).
Any idea what the colours are for the horse-hair plumes on either side of the Bell-lyre shown in your photo of the Gordons band in tropical dress c.1890. My first thought would be red/yellow, (coat and facing colour). What do you think?

This is a really nice process trooper - we are down to such details now - and it has REALLY made me think hard. I know that they're only toys, but it is so satisfying to get 'em right! I only hope my painting will do justice to all of your investigative work. Regards - johnnybach
 
This is the pattern adopted by the Gordon Highlanders. Other regiments were similar in shape but with slightly different designs.
 

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Aha! - That explains the "bong-bong" sound as I was typing my response. It was "INCOMING!" mail!

Them's good points about them thar drums. I will check with Giles, and see whether the drums of the Pipe & Drum section can be changed for a slightly smaller version - although only five of them will be using the full-sized side-drum. Giles has advised that he DOES have a half-size or "cheese" drum - so I am having 5 halfs and 5 full size. As your photo clearly shows a laddie with the half-size - I was delighted with this info - as cutting them in half with a razor-saw - then remodelling the drum-base is a pain in the netherwear region! I don't think I will go for another Bass Drummer in the P&D section, but leave the Musician's version where he is - directly behind the side-drums Of P&D, flanked by two Musician Side-drummers. Unusual - but a nice little detail which the real-life soldiers might have worked out too, perhaps. Clearly, their Bandmaster was a very thoughtful fellow. If you have ever marched between two bands, where the Bass drums of each is slightly out of synch. YUK! - you will know the feeling - and what it does to keeping in step!

That's given me yet another idea! I can now put my Clarinet playing Bandmaster in the front rank - along with Cymbalist, Bass Drummer and both Side-drummers. Here, he could more easily step out to conduct the band when it had stopped. Whoa! I'm gonna have lottsa fun playing with these guys when it's done!

I'll work ou the detail and re-post the arrangement. Regards - johnnybach
 
Wow - that is a really handsome piece of kit. Was it backed by a piecco of red velvet? Thanks for that trooper - yet again. johnnybach
 
Okay trooper - that makes it easy then - re mounted officer sword.

I have now remodelled my band to include two side-dummers either side of the Bass Drum, with cymbalist on the left and Bandmaster Clarinetist on the right of front rank.

This rank, of course, is immediately behind the two ranks of side drummers ( five with the smaller cheese drum and five with the ordinary side drum. I will ask Giles IF he can do one which is slightly narrower. That MAY be possible by using one from one of his other ranges). I have then shuffled the other players around, omitting one Tuba and one Euphonium to accomodate the extras above. I don't think this would upset the balance too much - as two bombardons would make seriously deep noise at the rear anyway.
I'll sleep on it - and possibly "dump" the saxophones instead - though I'm releuctant to do this - as they do add variety.

Many thanks - yet again - for input, thoughts and photos trooper. How about Craig and Dave , and Arnhemjim? though. This isn't a private party, although I think trooper is the real expert on this. I know you three were interested. What do YOU think? Any advice or observations WILL be greatfully received. - johnnybach
 
egyptband.jpg



CORPSDRUMS.jpg


bandfirstbattalion.jpg


2gordons_1907.jpg


Hi
Here`s some other pictures of bands.I`ll try and post somemore when I can get them copied.
Merry Christmas.
Cheers
Dave
 
Hi Dave - Happy Xmas to you too.
Many thanks for the photos of bands - I am beginning to build up a nice portfolio of them now. All good for the future.

Only one of the bands is Marked "Seaforths" - are they all the same Regiment?
The last picture also has no date. Any idea of what year for this one?

They are superb - so many thanks again for taking the trouble. Hope you are enjoying a bit of time off - and the festivities. johnny
 
Hi
Sorry about that.There`s 3 Regiments in the pictures.I have more pictures to post,I just have to get them copied.
Top to bottom
1 The Argylls

2Seaforths.The Highlanders (Seaforth,Gordons,Camersons)

3 The Argylls

4 2 Gordons.

Happy Holidays
Cheers
Dave
 
One small point that just about every manufacturer gets wrong! The buttons on the spats are white bone, or plastic for modern bands. Only the Gordon Highlanders use black buttons, this along with the black thread in their officers lace is to mark the death of Sir John Moore. I don't believe any regular highland regiment has ever worn metal buttons but as always I would be happy to be proved wrong.:)
 
Thanks for detail about black buttons on spats for Gordons Band circa 1871 Martin. Will note that for when I begin. As I will be having a Colour Party - and a group of marching men behind the band - I guess that will apply to them too. Thanks for that - johnnybach.
 
Hi Dave - thanks for the list of Regimental bands to go with the pictures. As I have begun a file for each of the Scottish Regimental bands - this will be handy for any future projects I might get involved with. One more question though - IF you have the detail to hand. What is the date of the Gordons picture - if it was given. Regards - johhnybach.
 
Yes, all members of the regiment have black buttons. Off the top of my head I seem to remember that one of the Gurkha regiments is affiliated to the Gordons and they too have black spat buttons.

Martin
 
Funnily enough, I have a small Gurkha band (by Asset) in No.3 dress. You can't really see the spats on the pipers and drummers ( the rest of the musicians aren't wearing them) - as the pipers are wearing trews, whilst the drummers are wearing dark green trousers. You can really only see a dash of white against the boots.
With a Highland band however - nearly all is revealed - but NOT as in "Carry on up the Khyber" - I may add!!

Sir John Moore - wasn't he killed at Corrunna and burried at night? (by the Gordons - perhaps?)

Isn't life complicated! - Cheers Martin - johnnybach
 

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