Andy, can we please see the photo of the Feisler Storch from the London Show (1 Viewer)

[Alexdakar]

Is it limited to 200 to test the market or because they are going to be a bit pricey.

 

[Rob]

Thanks Louis,that all sounds excellant.Look forward to buying these.

Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

Is it limited to 200 to test the market or because they are going to be a bit pricey.

Your guess is as good as mine. I think it might have something to do with the length of time it took dealers to sell out of the polystone Corsair and ME109 (i.e. a cautious "test the market" approach). I suspect that the planes are going to be at least as expensive as the "Strictly Limited" vehicles so maybe Andy figures there will be a more limited group of buyers willing/capable of expending this type of money. All I know is clear canopies and interior dcockpit detail on a detailed mohagany plane will make quite a unique combination, and I hope that the planes sell out quickly, as I am really looking forward to adding each new aircraft to my collection as soon as it is released.

 

[jazzeum]

I think the number is 200 to see if the concept will "fly" so to speak. If they don't sell, I don't know that he'll continue to make them. 200 is a safe number to see if they're viable. I'm sure if the warbirds "take off" Andy may increase production.

 

[Steven Chong]

I think the number is 200 to see if the concept will "fly" so to speak. If they don't sell, I don't know that he'll continue to make them. 200 is a safe number to see if they're viable. I'm sure if the warbirds "take off" Andy may increase production.

If the first 2nd Edition Warbird is a Rommel version of the Storch with a new Rommel figure, we will probably see it "sell out" v. quickly like the Grief, with numerous complaints about K&C misreading the collector's market. If K&C announces a production run of 200 but receives orders for 500 and decides to increase the production run, collectors will be complaining about being misled. Some K&C dealers will be upset because they cannot get all their order for this set completely fulfilled, with the resultant loss of business. We will also hear complaints about relatives of dealers selling this set on eBay for a substantial markup shortly after it is released, again with numerous complaints.
I think K&C should cover itself and announce the "planned production run is 200, but this number is subject to change."

 

[jazzeum]

Steven,

Unlike previous, for a lack of better word, gaffes such as the repainted King Tiger and Char B and the Greif (aptly phonetically named in this case ), I don't think King and Country has officially said anything yet about these planes so anything we say or opine about is speculation. Obviously, when they do, your advice may be useful.

 

[maddadicus]

Has it been established that the Warbirds will be $200 and up? Michael

 

[jazzeum]

I don't believe it's been publicly disclosed (at least not to me) what the price would be but in the past he intimated that it wouldn't be outrageous so I'm hopeful it will be in a $200 to $300 range but I don't know if that's the case or not. Perhaps others who may have asked that question at Chicago or London may wish to comment.

 

[Pierre]

If the first 2nd Edition Warbird is a Rommel version of the Storch with a new Rommel figure, we will probably see it "sell out" v. quickly like the Grief, with numerous complaints about K&C misreading the collector's market. If K&C announces a production run of 200 but receives orders for 500 and decides to increase the production run, collectors will be complaining about being misled. Some K&C dealers will be upset because they cannot get all their order for this set completely fulfilled, with the resultant loss of business. We will also hear complaints about relatives of dealers selling this set on eBay for a substantial markup shortly after it is released, again with numerous complaints.
I think K&C should cover itself and announce the "planned production run is 200, but this number is subject to change."

Personally, I think that K&C should ignore the opinion and complains of the dealers.

Their job is to sell the products that the manufacturers are producing and they should be satisfied by the profits they snap up on each item, no matter the number produced.

K&C is making their figures, tanks, vehicules and diorama accessories for us, the collectors, not for dealers.

In fact, we do not even need them. They put 40% in their pockets and they managed, by their lobbying, to increase the production of the WS71 and the FoB010, in their interest, not our.

And I do not talk about the SL editions that are everything except SL. International Toy Soldiers was GIVING a WS77 for a 2 000,00$ order. Could you imagine that with the WS69, WS70 or AK29?

The experience showed that a SL edition at 1 250 exemplaries is a flop and it would be a disaster to make the same mistake with the new warbirds.

In short, the fact is that in order of importance, there is: 1- the collectors, 2- the manufacturers and, optionally, 3- the dealers.

Pierre.

 

[Combat]

The Figarti Tiger is an interesting twist on limited editions. Making several different versions and limiting each to 100. That sounds like where KC may be heading with the warbirds. On price, the competitive wood planes are in the $125-150 range. But they do not include ground figures or support vehicles that KC might choose to include or sell separately. The $200-250 range seems about right.

 

[maddadicus]

Pierre, you are wrong. Collectors have been buying toy soldiers for a 100 years without the thought of their hobby being an investment. All you think of ,is what the future worth will be for what you buy today. That is wrong for a whole bunch of reasons. K/C's sole job is to put out whatever number of figures and vehicles it can absolutely sell. It is not their job to deliberately limit production in order to create a false demand to drive up profits for those that would horde extra pieces to resell at exhorbitent profit ,at the expense of their fellow collectors who were frozen out from buying any of the initial lot. It is the dealers that are necessary in order to ensure adequate numbers for everyone, not the speculators that would buy 6 or 7 of the limited original run in order to screw their fellow collectors. The fact is ,the sooner the speculators get out of the K/C business ,the better. Andy right now is so hot that anything he makes will sell and it is because people like the pieces quality and not their net worth...... Michael

 

[maddadicus]

The Figarti Tiger is an interesting twist on limited editions. Making several different versions and limiting each to 100. That sounds like where KC may be heading with the warbirds. On price, the competitive wood planes are in the $125-150 range. But they do not include ground figures or support vehicles that KC might choose to include or sell separately. The $200-250 range seems about right.

Maybe the Warbirds should be a separate buy with any support figures and vehicles also separate sales. That way if someone just wants the planes , they would not be burdened with other items they really are not interested in collecting. Michael

 

[Pierre]

Pierre, you are wrong. Collectors have been buying toy soldiers for a 100 years without the thought of their hobby being an investment. All you think of ,is what the future worth will be for what you buy today. That is wrong for a whole bunch of reasons. K/C's sole job is to put out whatever number of figures and vehicles it can absolutely sell. It is not their job to deliberately limit production in order to create a false demand to drive up profits for those that would horde extra pieces to resell at exhorbitent profit ,at the expense of their fellow collectors who were frozen out from buying any of the initial lot. It is the dealers that are necessary in order to ensure adequate numbers for everyone, not the speculators that would buy 6 or 7 of the limited original run in order to screw their fellow collectors. The fact is ,the sooner the speculators get out of the K/C business ,the better. Andy right now is so hot that anything he makes will sell and it is because people like the pieces quality and not their net worth...... Michael

Michael-

I respect your opinion but I disagree.

K&C has to produce and sell items that worth their prices, no matter the dark side of speculation. I am not ready to pay an extra 50,00$ to buy a BB015 that has only a piece of paper more than a BB "whatever the number".

Now, about speculation and selling to fellow collectors...

Firstly, I do not compel anyone to buy something on eBay.

Secondly, I do not settle the prices on the secondary market (the said market does it) and if a price appears exorbitant, it is only to you, not for the buyer (there are some items that I would loved to have pay the original price, don't worry).

Thirdly, does every items produced by K&C has to be retired only when every collector will have one?

Fourthly, no matter the number K&C will produce, there is, at least, one collector that will miss it (what are you doing with him?)

Lastly, we are not talking about common consumer goods but items of collection and we have no choice then to talk about investment against consumption. I hope that my collection is not like my car who is depreciating in the driveway.

Best regards,
Pierre.

 

[noli-poli]

I don't believe it's been publicly disclosed (at least not to me) what the price would be but in the past he intimated that it wouldn't be outrageous so I'm hopeful it will be in a $200 to $300 range but I don't know if that's the case or not. Perhaps others who may have asked that question at Chicago or London may wish to comment.

Brad:

I checked with one of the mahogany plane distributor and a customized 1/30 scale Storch or L4H Grasshopper will be $450. No clear canopies here or figures.

Is polystone or mahogany a must? Check out Century 21 X32 planes (Corsair, Stuka, etc.) they are made of plastic and metal and look great, lightweight, and nicely weathered at $15 a piece. Maybe an enthusiast version (similar to FOV) with a quality paint job ala KC will up the price to $199...still a far cry from the $450. Just my point of view.

N-P

 

[jazzeum]

Comparing plastic/metal to mahogany is apples and oranges.

King and Country will be able to make these for less than $450 because of economies of scale.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Pierre,

I have to totally disagree with your opinion as to the dealers. Without the dealers, there would not be a hobby. The dealers like our hosts, Pete and Shannon, George (Warrior), Bill Sager, Tim Tyler, the Bruntons, Gideon Rettich, Tony Ciccarello, Matt Murphy, the Nevilles, and Craig MCClean, just to name a few of my favorites, have done a ton for me, and are as helpful, honest and honorable a bunch as I can imagine dealing with. Believe me that Andy would (and does) charge the retail price if you eliminated the middle man, so they have not caused the price to increase 40%.

As far as limited edition, I have always believed "strictly limited" should be a specific amount of less than 1,000, so I agree with you on this issue.

As far as prices of the new warbirds are concerned, K&C will be able to beat the custom price because Andy will be ordering 200+ of each warbird, will be making repeat orders, and will be operating with a factory in China rather than the Philippines, so will have cheaper production costs. I believe each plane will be sold with a pilot or small crew, and that the other related accessory sets will be sold separately. I hope the planes come in at around $200, certainly no more than $300, so they will be affordable and sell quickly.

 

[OzDigger]

Pierre, you are wrong. Collectors have been buying toy soldiers for a 100 years without the thought of their hobby being an investment. All you think of ,is what the future worth will be for what you buy today. That is wrong for a whole bunch of reasons. K/C's sole job is to put out whatever number of figures and vehicles it can absolutely sell. It is not their job to deliberately limit production in order to create a false demand to drive up profits for those that would horde extra pieces to resell at exhorbitent profit ,at the expense of their fellow collectors who were frozen out from buying any of the initial lot. It is the dealers that are necessary in order to ensure adequate numbers for everyone, not the speculators that would buy 6 or 7 of the limited original run in order to screw their fellow collectors. The fact is ,the sooner the speculators get out of the K/C business ,the better. Andy right now is so hot that anything he makes will sell and it is because people like the pieces quality and not their net worth...... Michael

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. There was a time when K & C were selling to a limited number of elite collectors. However those times have long past because of the wider knowledge and appreciation of their products.

I would certainly hate to see the Rommel Storch issued in a small number like 200 as it will attract the investors who'll but 3 or more to make a killing on eBay leaving many collectors out of luck and out of pocket

If Andy wants to test the aircraft market with a popular item like Rommel's Storch market at least make it so they can only be ordered direct from K & C (one per collector) with delivery thru dealers, any remaining can be sold via the usual channels.

 

[Pierre]

Pierre,

I have to totally disagree with your opinion as to the dealers. Without the dealers, there would not be a hobby. The dealers like our hosts, Pete and Shannon, George (Warrior), Bill Sager, Tim Tyler, the Bruntons, Gideon Rettich, Tony Ciccarello, Matt Murphy, the Nevilles, and Craig MCClean, just to name a few of my favorites, have done a ton for me, and are as helpful, honest and honorable a bunch as I can imagine dealing with.

My post was in reply of Steven's one and was in relation of the specific issue raised, namely the opinion and complains of the dealers, not their existence, utility or sweetness.

I have to disagree with you on the fact that without them, there would be no hobby. Take off the collectors, you have no hobby; take off the manufacturers, you have no hobby; take off the dealers, you still have a hobby and it is more true in our present days with the internet. Look at Gideon (great dealer who has great stuff) who closed his store and who's doing business only by the net.

Amitiés,
Pierre.

 

[jazzeum]

Pierre,

On this one you couldn't be so wrong. From a business point of view, how do you think the product is going to get to the collector from the manufacturer? Direct, not likely. If you look at any model of a successful business, there is a dealer network, retailers or distributors. To think a business could sell to direct to the collectors only is fanciful. For instance, it's through the dealers where you see the products at shows and who get the product out to you. Without one dealer, Treefrog Treasures, this forum wouldn't even exist.

I also don't understand why you're attacking the dealers. The dealers that I've come to know over the last couple of years are outstanding dealers and fine human being, whom I'm proud to call my friends. If your anger relates to the number of limited editions, the dealers didn't want 1,250 produced. They recommended 999 as an appropriate number.

I also that you were upset with Michael. He didn't call you a speculator so I'm not sure where this anger emanates from.

 

[Pierre]

Pierre,

On this one you couldn't be so wrong. From a business point of view, how do you think the product is going to get to the collector from the manufacturer? Direct, not likely. If you look at any model of a successful business, there is a dealer network, retailers or distributors. To think a business could sell to direct to the collectors only is fanciful. For instance, it's through the dealers where you see the products at shows and who get the product out to you. Without one dealer, Treefrog Treasures, this forum wouldn't even exist.

I also don't understand why you're attacking the dealers. The dealers that I've come to know over the last couple of years are outstanding dealers and fine human being, whom I'm proud to call my friends. If your anger relates to the number of limited editions, the dealers didn't want 1,250 produced. They recommended 999 as an appropriate number.

I also that you were upset with Michael. He didn't call you a speculator so I'm not sure where this anger emanates from.

Hi Brad-

I don not have too much time this morning, I must leave for the day but just on two points:

1- I did not attack the dealers. I did not ask for their disappearance. I only said that they are not necessary which do not exclude that they are useful.

2- I am not upset with Michael. I started my post by saying that I respect his opinion. I do not have time to loose at the point to write something I do not mean. I am well aware of his thinking (and OzDigger too) about the secondary market (especially eBay) to use the word "speculator" in my reply to his without making any error in the use of it. Accordingly, this is why you are not sure where my supposed anger enames from. There is no anger.

Amitiés,
Pierre.