Arnhem. (1 Viewer)

Thanks Wayne for posting, look forward to the remaining figures being released to bolster the ranks. They all look good, well done Andy.:salute::, Robin.
 
There's nothing as exciting in toy soldier land for me than seeing Arnhem para's in cityscapes. ^&coolThe para's and the marketing pics look awesome! Unfortunately this is all bittersweet for me as the pics are likely as close as I'll get to these releases. :(
 
Bren gunner steals the show but, where is the rendition of Frost?
Mitch
 
Lovely figures, unfortunately the price of the new "pathfinder" range is somewhat of a deterrent. However I think I will try to put some funds aside to get the Cain VC at least.
 
Looks like there are some nice figures amongst the second batch of releases - the advancing figures and kneeling Bren gunner in particular. Hope there are plans for a John Frost figure - don't see him here. Would also like to see Irish Guards CO Joe Vandeleur portrayed at some point (movie buffs will know he was played by Michael Caine in 'A Bridge Too Far').
 
As the figures have been shown I hope this means the 2nd batch are not too far away. Previous times there would be one release a year of MG. Lost count of how many of the new 20 figures we are aware of now, but it's in the high teens I should think. Robin.
 
There are 13 new figures that I can see, so 3rd release can be another 7. Of the course the collector in me hopes for many more{sm4}, Robin,
 
4737 Carlin said:
Looks like there are some nice figures amongst the second batch of releases - the advancing figures and kneeling Bren gunner in particular. Hope there are plans for a John Frost figure - don't see him here. Would also like to see Irish Guards CO Joe Vandeleur portrayed at some point (movie buffs will know he was played by Michael Caine in 'A Bridge Too Far').
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I agree, the "second" drop has a nice group of poses. I'm intrigued by what I read in the leaflets/collector magazine about the future Arnhem releases being "lesser known" aspects of the battle including vehicles. Here's hoping for Frost, a scooter, medics, wounded, and anything else I can't think of that's out of the box. While were at it if K&C really want to surprise me, release the all the Arnhem pieces with reasonable prices! {eek3} ;)
 
Cyber Field Marshall said:
I agree, the "second" drop has a nice group of poses. I'm intrigued by what I read in the leaflets/collector magazine about the future Arnhem releases being "lesser known" aspects of the battle including vehicles. Here's hoping for Frost, a scooter, medics, wounded, and anything else I can't think of that's out of the box. While were at it if K&C really want to surprise me, release the all the Arnhem pieces with reasonable prices! {eek3} ;)
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CFM,
Now you do have me confused. I appreciate nobody likes price rises but in the other thread you are
suggesting people boycott this series to force K&C to bring prices down. I would have thought lack of
sales of these new release, as you seem to want, would mean no more future releases such as Frost
and vehicles. Why ask for future releases if you do not plan to buy them ? Seems strange to me.

As with some other posters your expectation is that K&C should price figures at what you want to pay
and not what K&C thinks is appropriate for the success of his business.

I think Chris's post sums up the situation fairly well. If somebody likes an item buy it. Each persons
"value threshold" is different depending upon budget and the attraction of the item.

Regards
Brett
 
The Military Workshop said:
CFM,
Now you do have me confused. I appreciate nobody likes price rises but in the other thread you are
suggesting people boycott this series to force K&C to bring prices down. I would have thought lack of
sales of these new release, as you seem to want, would mean no more future releases such as Frost
and vehicles. Why ask for future releases if you do not plan to buy them ? Seems strange to me.

Good point, let me clarify my position. Sometimes whats going on in our heads doesn't match what we write. I really like toy soldiers and Arnhem is my favourite series, nobody has really done this campaign justice except K&C who are the only game in town. I really like the new releases. To address the issue of future releases. What I'm still hoping for is the "normal" price point releases instead of P, wishful thinking I know but feeling priced out of your favourite series sucks. I selfishly would like to see P fail miserably but I definitely want mainstream K&C to gone on and somewhere in there fit in more Arnhem.

As with some other posters your expectation is that K&C should price figures at what you want to pay
and not what K&C thinks is appropriate for the success of his business.

If that were true I'd want collectibles to be sold in bags of 100 at $5! :salute:: Everyone has their agenda/bias. K&C and its dealer network and really anyone affiliated with them wants lots of sales at even higher profit margins, I get that. For someone with that point of view to argue otherwise would make no sense. I however am a humble consumer/collector whose bias is reasonable quality at a reasonable price of which K&C has consistently delivered over the years. For me P is going to far. Pricepoint and quality are the reasons I've been loyal to K&C instead of looking elsewhere. I'm not trying to convince others I'm right or that K&C and the businesses like yours it helps support are wrong. Far be it for me to suggest what appropriate and potentially successful business strategy might look like. All I can comment on is my consumer point of view. Again wishful thinking perhaps but the road K&C are on is pricing me out so I wish they would go back to the tried and true. For those that will pay up for these collectibles I truly don't mean to rain on your parade, they are a beautiful pieces to see and a source of great pleasure however if we keep buying them at ever inflated prices things can only keep getting worse. It must stop/slow down at some point.
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With all the changes recently from the wholesale repricing of existing stock, jumping from $32 to 42 to 55 per figure in very quick order with neglible quality improvements, increasingly shorter production runs with consequentially increased retirements etc etc K&C has taken a lot of hard business decisions that are not in my opinion consumer friendly at all. In fact they are pushing many to the breaking point. I could accept price increases if quality were markedly improved or modest price increases if quality doesn't improve but the jumps we are seeing are in this collectors viewpoint nothing short of price gauging. I'm starting to feel ripped off. I know I'm not alone here. I won't take my toys and leave the playground but I am disappointed that I must increasingly look at other options for my collecting habit. The forum is the only place I can express my feelings and opinions so there they are. I make no apologies for them. :(
 
Cyber Field Marshall said:
With all the changes recently from the wholesale repricing of existing stock, jumping from $32 to 42 to 55 per figure in very quick order with neglible quality improvements, increasingly shorter production runs with consequentially increased retirements etc etc K&C has taken a lot of hard business decisions that are not in my opinion consumer friendly at all. In fact they are pushing many to the breaking point. I could accept price increases if quality were markedly improved or modest price increases if quality doesn't improve but the jumps we are seeing are in this collectors viewpoint nothing short of price gauging. I'm starting to feel ripped off. I know I'm not alone here. I won't take my toys and leave the playground but I am disappointed that I must increasingly look at other options for my collecting habit. The forum is the only place I can express my feelings and opinions so there they are. I make no apologies for them. :(
Click to expand...

CFM,
No apologies necessary. It is unfortunate that you feel you are being priced out of collecting.

I could make an in depth reply but there are a couple of points I will comment on.

You mentioned the wholesale increase of existing stock. That happened 2 1/2 years ago (or was it 3 1/2) and K&C informed people 2 months ahead of it. K&C is a brand that has some items available for far longer than other brands and this involves doing a number of production runs. Google China Labour cost increases and draw your own conclusions. If you were running a business could you sell your product at the same price over 3-8 years with the increased costs your Google search will show ? I remember the Black Watch figures were still available at $25 when other new Nap figures were $32. I could see K&C were doing further runs but also that their margins on them would be decreasing. As a dealer I told Andy I would prefer he increased the price rather than not have those Black Watch at all. The French Imperial Guard were around for nearly 8 years and went from $25 to $32 in that time. There is a cost involved in K&C having such a large range of product available over long periods.

You mentioned that you felt you were being gauged and ripped off. As I said below I believe K&C goes on a certain percentage margin and any prices he charges are a reflection upon his costs.

The good news is that Google search will also show that a number of experts expect that in about 5 years Chinese labour/manufacturing costs will be about the same as those in USA. Then it is just a matter of getting the labour that wants to paint figures for years of their life.

I did express some thoughts in your previous thread Reflections and thoughts on P six weeks ago and an edited version is below. My apologies for re-posting it here but we do seem to be discussing the same subject over multiple threads and my comment still hold true (I still think if a US GI is $42.50 then a Para smock figure is no surprise, to me at least, at $55).

Regards
Brett

Re-run of previous post :

"Below is part of Stephen Chongs report from Andy's comments from the recent West Coast show :

"Unfortunately, costs keep increasing. Despite having more than 1.4 billion people, there is actually a labor shortage in China with few young people willing to do low tech jobs like painting figures. K&C will be celebrating its 30th anniversary, having started in 1983. It started producing in China in 1988. Around that time, a painter earned US$200 to $300 per month and factories had 400 or more painters working double shifts. Now, K&C's biggest factory only has 50 to 60 painters each earning 3 to 4 times more. There has also been drastic increases in raw material and transportation costs (compare cost of gasoline in 1980's to now. But there has also been an increase in quality and variety coupled with customers becoming more demanding".

My reaction to the price jump of Arnhem and the Indians was also one of surprise as it was more of a rise than normal. I can appreciate the price rises are not welcome by collectors but take a moment to consider it from the other side. For the collector this is a luxury hobby so really the choice is about whether or not you will buy a metal soldier that may have crossed your price level. For Andy/K&C this is a business that affects his livelihood and those of his staff and indirectly the factories and his dealers. He has a lot more riding on this than any collector so I think it safe to assume he gave considerable thought to this pricing change knowing that it would not be popular.

Having dealt with Andy for over 10 years and had many conversations with him I know price has always been an important consideration. From my knowledge he works on a certain percentage on top of the factory price. Whether or not the Arnhem and Indian figures are a significant change in detail I cant comment on at this stage but I am sure the percentage is the same. However here is another way to compare the Armhem figures. Try to imagine going into a TS shop for the first time (ie. never seen a TS before) and you see the Arnhem figures and the two new US Medic sets (2 for $85 so $42.50 each). I think it is clear that the Arnhem figures would require more painting time and hence cost more. On that comparison the $55 is not unreasonable if compared to the Medics.

Some other points to consider. The variety of product now across various brands, historical periods and price points is huge (and lets not forget the UK cottage guys). I would like to think I have a good variety of stock across the brands I stock but I think, as a dealer, there is too much variety available. Whilst this may seem good for the collector it may not be as good as you think. Whilst my view might be slightly different to a USA dealer I am sure all dealers are finding there are some series that hardly sell at all. In some cases there have been items I simply did not get in and had no orders for. For a brand that means their successful series has to cover any series that does not sell as expected. A knock on effect of this is that brands are doing smaller production runs (this is quite obvious) and I believe factories would charge more per figure the smaller the runs get.

I know Andy will know and have met quite a few forum members who are now making negative comments about pricing and say they will not buy the figures etc. He will not find it much fun to read them. However I am pretty sure Andy is doing what he thinks is in the best interests of his business and the continued employment of his staff. No doubt some will jump on this comment as somehow being insensitive to their requirement that Andy price his products to their particular budget. The reality is for Andy it is a serious business whereas for collectors it is a hobby. He has more to lose than anybody if he has got it wrong".
 
CFM...

You make valid points that are being echoed all over in relation to this point. There is no real reason why these figures should be at this price point and all the arguments set forth don't really hold water unless these figures were above and beyond what K&C had released. Its not raining on anyone's parade collectors have to speak out in the way they see fit and how it affects them and others in this case similarly.

The excuses for this range have varied from they are P and at a higher level to economics and the Chinese situation and, that they are somehow much harder to paint than say a German in Grey or a GI in OD. Which is it I wonder? If the first is the position then, where is the marked difference you can fool some of the people but not all and its not one or two who see nothing has changed. If its economics and the need to pay these Chinese higher wages which is constantly postulated by some then, how come it only affects Indians and Arnhem???? what, I wonder is so hard to paint these? It brings me on nicely to the next point in that its believed that a Arnhem figure is harder to paint than any other figure and, I heard this before from a couple of people when discussing the paint issue. If this is the case then, expect German camo to rise accordingly in a very short space of time because anyone who knows painting knows that German camo when done properly is the most difficult combo to do. so, a question open to all why are WSS figures which often have two different German camo patterns on the same figure able to be sold at £40 ish and Arnhem has to be at £55 to £76?? I have painted both and know what is easier and what is harder and more complex. Looking at these new Arnhem figures I would say the older pattern looks more realistic and the latter with a touch of P added looks clumsily over painted in terms of adding light shade almost ambush camo to the Dennison. It just was not like that from all the pics I have seen and, the real jackets that I have in my own little collection. Or, is that what they wanted to make it look more complex when it actually is not? We also know that its a conveyor belt of painters each painting their own little bit and then reproducing hundreds per shift and then on to the next person so, I would expect and I have only spoken to one person who painted figures like this for a manufacturer that is not as complex as some would like to make us believe.

We hear that Grey is easy to paint and OD easy to paint from corners of the hobby where people could probably not paint a barn door properly with a big brush but, Grey is also hard to do if done properly its easy to slap grey paint on a model but, to tone it correctly and add variation to it. same with allied green and OD on uniforms. So, the excuses don't add up unless this is the beginning where K&C decide their painting is as good as FL and therefore move to raise its prices. I have to say however much I like K&C they are not and if P is there move to take FL customers away from them then, they have to go back to the drawing board. I hear on here and elsewhere a decent size number of people who have money to spend and like K&C primarily over other manufacturers being priced out of getting K&C and, that to me is madness. This firm was built on offering decent figures at a decent price and should stick with the basics that made it what it is. To try and, it seems to me its what they are doing, to be everything to all people well, those with better taste and more money!!! is a stupid thing to do. Why alienate (I think that's a good word here) a core loyal element of your demographic?? Makes No sense to me especially if we are to again believe that this is a small hobby

I think this subject must be killing some but, this is a toy soldier forum and its about toy soldiers and what they are and how they affect individuals or, what is the point? I don't believe this is just a sales platform to over praise every set to get people to quickly and without thinking part with a chunk of cash and then either not be happy with what they bought or, feel it was not worth it. Not a good way to keep the hobby going.
Mitch
 
Last edited:
Mitch

You have highlighted the fact that you consider the "P' figures to be a price gouge, not worth the money.

You have said this not one, not two, not ten times in different threads repeating the same thing over and over and over again. Even Margaret Thatcher is now aware you consider the "P" range to be "a stupid thing to do" ( and she is sadly no longer with us).

"There is no real reason why these figures should be at this price point and all the arguments set forth don't really hold water unless"; unless you own a international company that is a industry leader in the area of model toy soldiers.

"Unless" you have staff that have families to support.

"Unless" you have developed contractual relationships with Chinese companies that are not easy to maintain.

"Unless" there is a community of worldwide product distributors who derive an income from the industry.

"Unless" there are a countless number of people worldwide that actually enjoy collecting toy soldiers as hobby.

"Unless" you actually want to make a profit from the Business you run.

Try and apply your mindless arguments to Bill Gates;

"There is no real reason why Word 2010 should be at this price point and all the arguments set forth don't really hold water"

If you feel they are too expensive DON'T BUY THEM!!!!
 
The Military Workshop said:
CFM,
No apologies necessary. It is unfortunate that you feel you are being priced out of collecting.

I could make an in depth reply but there are a couple of points I will comment on.

You mentioned the wholesale increase of existing stock. That happened 2 1/2 years ago (or was it 3 1/2) and K&C informed people 2 months ahead of it. K&C is a brand that has some items available for far longer than other brands and this involves doing a number of production runs. Google China Labour cost increases and draw your own conclusions. If you were running a business could you sell your product at the same price over 3-8 years with the increased costs your Google search will show ? I remember the Black Watch figures were still available at $25 when other new Nap figures were $32. I could see K&C were doing further runs but also that their margins on them would be decreasing. As a dealer I told Andy I would prefer he increased the price rather than not have those Black Watch at all. The French Imperial Guard were around for nearly 8 years and went from $25 to $32 in that time. There is a cost involved in K&C having such a large range of product available over long periods.

You mentioned that you felt you were being gauged and ripped off. As I said below I believe K&C goes on a certain percentage margin and any prices he charges are a reflection upon his costs.

The good news is that Google search will also show that a number of experts expect that in about 5 years Chinese labour/manufacturing costs will be about the same as those in USA. Then it is just a matter of getting the labour that wants to paint figures for years of their life.

I did express some thoughts in your previous thread Reflections and thoughts on P six weeks ago and an edited version is below. My apologies for re-posting it here but we do seem to be discussing the same subject over multiple threads and my comment still hold true (I still think if a US GI is $42.50 then a Para smock figure is no surprise, to me at least, at $55).

Regards
Brett

Re-run of previous post :

"Below is part of Stephen Chongs report from Andy's comments from the recent West Coast show :

"Unfortunately, costs keep increasing. Despite having more than 1.4 billion people, there is actually a labor shortage in China with few young people willing to do low tech jobs like painting figures. K&C will be celebrating its 30th anniversary, having started in 1983. It started producing in China in 1988. Around that time, a painter earned US$200 to $300 per month and factories had 400 or more painters working double shifts. Now, K&C's biggest factory only has 50 to 60 painters each earning 3 to 4 times more. There has also been drastic increases in raw material and transportation costs (compare cost of gasoline in 1980's to now. But there has also been an increase in quality and variety coupled with customers becoming more demanding".

My reaction to the price jump of Arnhem and the Indians was also one of surprise as it was more of a rise than normal. I can appreciate the price rises are not welcome by collectors but take a moment to consider it from the other side. For the collector this is a luxury hobby so really the choice is about whether or not you will buy a metal soldier that may have crossed your price level. For Andy/K&C this is a business that affects his livelihood and those of his staff and indirectly the factories and his dealers. He has a lot more riding on this than any collector so I think it safe to assume he gave considerable thought to this pricing change knowing that it would not be popular.

Having dealt with Andy for over 10 years and had many conversations with him I know price has always been an important consideration. From my knowledge he works on a certain percentage on top of the factory price. Whether or not the Arnhem and Indian figures are a significant change in detail I cant comment on at this stage but I am sure the percentage is the same. However here is another way to compare the Armhem figures. Try to imagine going into a TS shop for the first time (ie. never seen a TS before) and you see the Arnhem figures and the two new US Medic sets (2 for $85 so $42.50 each). I think it is clear that the Arnhem figures would require more painting time and hence cost more. On that comparison the $55 is not unreasonable if compared to the Medics.

Some other points to consider. The variety of product now across various brands, historical periods and price points is huge (and lets not forget the UK cottage guys). I would like to think I have a good variety of stock across the brands I stock but I think, as a dealer, there is too much variety available. Whilst this may seem good for the collector it may not be as good as you think. Whilst my view might be slightly different to a USA dealer I am sure all dealers are finding there are some series that hardly sell at all. In some cases there have been items I simply did not get in and had no orders for. For a brand that means their successful series has to cover any series that does not sell as expected. A knock on effect of this is that brands are doing smaller production runs (this is quite obvious) and I believe factories would charge more per figure the smaller the runs get.

I know Andy will know and have met quite a few forum members who are now making negative comments about pricing and say they will not buy the figures etc. He will not find it much fun to read them. However I am pretty sure Andy is doing what he thinks is in the best interests of his business and the continued employment of his staff. No doubt some will jump on this comment as somehow being insensitive to their requirement that Andy price his products to their particular budget. The reality is for Andy it is a serious business whereas for collectors it is a hobby. He has more to lose than anybody if he has got it wrong".
Click to expand...

I don't care which way or not and why K&C are doing a "P" range they can do what they want but if there is a shortage of painters and there getting payed more now days why would you make a product that requires more painting hence more money to paint and longer to do ??
If the market is so tight why bring out a "PREMIUM" range i thought finding a way to keep prices down would be the way to go.................^&confuse
This is more a question than a statement because as far as im concerned K&C can and others can do what they like the sales will soon tell us all if its a great idea or not.
All i care about is a GREY German is a GREY German no "P" Potentiol there..................^&grin
 
wayne556517 said:
I don't care which way or not and why K&C are doing a "P" range they can do what they want but if there is a shortage of painters and there getting payed more now days why would you make a product that requires more painting hence more money to paint and longer to do ??
If the market is so tight why bring out a "PREMIUM" range i thought finding a way to keep prices down would be the way to go.................^&confuse
This is more a question than a statement because as far as im concerned K&C can and others can do what they like the sales will soon tell us all if its a great idea or not.
All i care about is a GREY German is a GREY German no "P" Potentiol there..................^&grin
Click to expand...

Knew you would bring your Jerries into the squabble mate. {sm4}

Tom
 
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