Avatar (3 Viewers)

[Scott]

One doesnt have to be rah rah over corporations to appreciate the role western civlization has played in advancing humanity beyond a hunter/gatherer existence. Then again, maybe the world would be better off if we were all still living a 12th century existence. (but uh-oh, there would be no computers or internet...)

I'm working on this one right now.....Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by
Jared Diamond

It's More like fortunate Geography.

Avatar is still popular because of its fantastic technology. Its storyline is considered pretty banal by most.

Sure ....."Pocahontas"

Zinn was an unabashed hater of america and its culture. Best of luck with that.

That's the U-nited States of America bub and don't you forget it!

 

[Lewey Gun Vick]

Here's my two-cents worth;

Wanna go see the film, just when it comes out to the $3.50 theatre, just so my friends stop hassaling me about being "anti-avatar". Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, Avatar is basically Dances with Wolves meets sci-fi.

On Howard Zinn, his book is atrocious, had to read it for class, very offensive, especially the part on the U.S. Invasion of Panama; "But the invasion, neighborhoods in Panama City wer bombarded and hundred, perhaps thousands of civilians were killed." He obviously didn't interview any veterans of U.S. army that took part in the invasion. Probably just watched the Panama Deception.

Best Regards,

Vick

 

[Rutledge]

I'm working on this one right now.....Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by
Jared Diamond

It's More like fortunate Geography.

Before you go off and commit yourself to yet another debaser of western values, perhaps you should consider:

Carnage and Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power by Victor David Hanson (a great book, which I have read twice)

"Military historian and conservative political columnist Victor Davis Hanson agrees with Diamond in that he rejects a racial explanation for Western dominance. But Hanson argues that certain fundamental aspects of Western culture are responsible, specifically political freedom, capitalism, individualism, republicanism, rationalism, and open debate. Hanson has written that Diamond seems "terribly confused" about history, and that environment was "almost irrelevant" to Western success."

Sure ....."Pocahontas"

Or Dances with Wolves in Space. Call it whatever you like. The story has been told a thousand times in a thousand different settings. No originality whatsoever.

That's the U-nited States of America bub and don't you forget it!

We are far from U-nited these days. And please dont call me "bub", OK pal.

 

[Scott]

On page 593 he wrote "perhaps thousands" and then gives other figures with sources.

Here's what I found at..

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/just_cause.htm

"The high casualties and use of resources usually associated with all-out urban warfare did not occur. The United States suffered 23 KIA and 324 WIA, with estimated enemy casualties around 450. There were an estimated 200 to 300 Panamanian civilian fatalities. Some were killed by the PDF, others inadvertently by US troops. More civilians almost certainly would have been killed or wounded had it not been for the discipline of the American forces and their stringent rules of engagement (ROE). However, the United Nations (UN) put the civilian death toll at 500; the Central American Human Rights Defense Commission (CODEHUCA) and the Peace and Justice Service of Panama both claimed between 2,000 to 3000; the Panamanian National Human Rights Commission and an independent inquiry by former Attorney- General Ramsey Clark claimed over 4,000. Thousands were injured. As it turned out, the figure of Panamanian dead was large enough to stimulate debate over the need for the invasion to remove Noriega, but not large enough to generate a sense of outrage in Panama or abroad, or to turn the Panamanian people against the US intervention or the nation-building program that followed it."

Meanwhile, following the plot of Avatar it's over 150 years in the future and a wounded Marine vet has to become a mercenary for 18 years (suspended animation time there and back) to pay for his future spinal operation. Sully becomes a hero..maybe because he is a Marine and the best man for the job.

The scientists discover that the whole planet is connected biologically and that the local's religion taps into a scientific reality.

Wow that's really threatening! Funny that it's FOX film yet there has to be some manufactured outrage about the politics of the film to further divide Americans.

 

[Lewey Gun Vick]

On page 593 he wrote "perhaps thousands" and then gives other figures with sources.

Here's what I found at..

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/just_cause.htm

"The high casualties and use of resources usually associated with all-out urban warfare did not occur. The United States suffered 23 KIA and 324 WIA, with estimated enemy casualties around 450. There were an estimated 200 to 300 Panamanian civilian fatalities. Some were killed by the PDF, others inadvertently by US troops. More civilians almost certainly would have been killed or wounded had it not been for the discipline of the American forces and their stringent rules of engagement (ROE). However, the United Nations (UN) put the civilian death toll at 500; the Central American Human Rights Defense Commission (CODEHUCA) and the Peace and Justice Service of Panama both claimed between 2,000 to 3000; the Panamanian National Human Rights Commission and an independent inquiry by former Attorney- General Ramsey Clark claimed over 4,000. Thousands were injured. As it turned out, the figure of Panamanian dead was large enough to stimulate debate over the need for the invasion to remove Noriega, but not large enough to generate a sense of outrage in Panama or abroad, or to turn the Panamanian people against the US intervention or the nation-building program that followed it."
QUOTE]

Sorry don't usually don't take U.N. or beauracrats reports on most thing connected with the U.S.A. (for reasons on how they have a severe bias against our nation.) I usually take the accounts of veterans of the incident, for example my father!

Best Regards,

Vick

 

[Spitfrnd]

Sorry don't usually don't take U.N. or beauracrats reports on most thing connected with the U.S.A. (for reasons on how they have a severe bias against our nation.) I usually take the accounts of veterans of the incident, for example my father!

Best Regards,

Vick

Well I would be careful with that. Despite the best intentions, few of us normal soldiers and airmen, officers included, reliably have that kind of information on an operational scale. That includes the intelligence corps; I still remember how accurate our body counts were.

I am not sure what you mean about beauracrats being anti American; they are us. We have long been a nation deep in beauracrats, military and civilian.

 

[Lewey Gun Vick]

Well I would be careful with that. Despite the best intentions, few of us normal soldiers and airmen, officers included, reliably have that kind of information on an operational scale. That includes the intelligence corps; I still remember how accurate our body counts were.

Bill,

Not trying to say there weren't civilian casualties, just trying to say I'm sick of people like Mr. Zinn, claiming we went in there and just shot everyone up as suggested in his book. My father was a officer with the 82nd, who was all over the place during the invasion (Torrijos International Airport, Panama City, Fort Cimmiron) and had mulitple friends with the Rangers. Showed this passage in the book while reading it, he shrugged, said Zinn was full of you know what and went on his way doing yard work.

On the beauracrat note, as first to say I have no care for any party, when we have some who say its "un-american" to debate. I feel that expresses on how I feel with many politicains on both sides of the aisle.

Best Regards,

Vick

 

[Spitfrnd]

Bill,

Not trying to say there weren't civilian casualties, just trying to say I'm sick of people like Mr. Zinn, claiming we went in there and just shot everyone up as suggested in his book. My father was a officer with the 82nd, who was all over the place during the invasion (Torrijos International Airport, Panama City, Fort Cimmiron) and had mulitple friends with the Rangers. Showed this passage in the book while reading it, he shrugged, said Zinn was full of you know what and went on his way doing yard work.

On the beauracrat note, as first to say I have no care for any party, when we have some who say its "un-american" to debate. I feel that expresses on how I feel with many politicains on both sides of the aisle.

Best Regards,

Vick

OK, well I am not taking sides on the actual results, only noting from personal experience the limitations anyone actually involved in an action generally has in learning the full story. You simply have too many more immediate things to focus on.

I am still puzzled by your observation though. Judging from Scott's posted excerpt, it hardly seems as though he is saying the US Forces were reckless or blood thirsty.

"The high casualties and use of resources usually associated with all-out urban warfare did not occur. The United States suffered 23 KIA and 324 WIA, with estimated enemy casualties around 450. There were an estimated 200 to 300 Panamanian civilian fatalities. Some were killed by the PDF, others inadvertently by US troops. More civilians almost certainly would have been killed or wounded had it not been for the discipline of the American forces and their stringent rules of engagement (ROE)...."

Was there some other passage that said that?

 

[Lewey Gun Vick]

"The high casualties and use of resources usually associated with all-out urban warfare did not occur. The United States suffered 23 KIA and 324 WIA, with estimated enemy casualties around 450. There were an estimated 200 to 300 Panamanian civilian fatalities. Some were killed by the PDF, others inadvertently by US troops. More civilians almost certainly would have been killed or wounded had it not been for the discipline of the American forces and their stringent rules of engagement (ROE)...."

Was there some other passage that said that?

Bill,

The quote that Scott posted is from global security, in "A People's Hisotry", Zinn goes one to claim that we killed as many people as the the Chinese govnerment did in the Tiananamen Square. Which is one of the numerous things I criticized him on, in my essay on his book for my class. Also to clarify, I'm talking about the organizations that have estimates on 2000-3000 civilian deaths, which is absurd. Also he ignores the detail of Marine lieutenant Robert Paz who was gunned down by the PDF, who actually graduated college with my father in the same ROTC unit.

Best regards,

Vick

 

[Scott]

Victor David Hanson...he seems to be a political man as opposed to a scientist, thanks I'll give him a look.

 

[Scott]

Considering that Avatar has the "Indians" win and that the earth forces are cartoonishly evil, (Good job of playing that role Stephen Lang!) I'm not taking the politics too seriously. The ritual scenes were too over the top and looked like stage musical numbers. I'm thinking the stage production numbers in two of the three King Kong films. Funny that the religious got upset about the film as well. In Avatar the prayers were actually answered with the attack of the animals. Remember Tarzan rallying his elephants to trample the natives?

 

[Rutledge]

Victor David Hanson...he seems to be a political man as opposed to a scientist, thanks I'll give him a look.

Actually Hanson is an academic whose field is actually human history, as opposed to Diamond (Jared Diamond, professor of geography and physiology) and Zinn, who was much more a political scientist than historian. FYI, these facts are easy to find on the web.


"Hanson, a California State at Fresno classics professor"

 

[lancer]

Actually Hanson is an academic whose field is actually human history, as opposed to Diamond (Jared Diamond, professor of geography and physiology) and Zinn, who was much more a political scientist than historian. FYI, these facts are easy to find on the web.


"Hanson, a California State at Fresno classics professor"

FWIW, Hanson has written several excellent, (IMO), histories on the developement of the western form of warfare. His "The Western Way of War" is about the rise of warfare in ancient Greece and is hard to beat. He also did "A War Like No Other", about the Peloponnesian War. Hanson is well worth reading for his ancient warfare writings as well as his works on more modern times. -- lancer

 

[Spitfrnd]

Avatar just eclipsed Titanic as the No. 1 total grossing film passing $601 million in the US in 47 days. It took Titanic 245 days to reach $600 million. Of course those are only the US receipts, it passed a $ billion total some time back. Not bad for a propaganda flick. Maybe feature films are the new opiate of the people.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Bill mentioned
"That includes the intelligence corps" and I recalled my "part time" work as a kid !!
Dad was British Army INT CORPS and we were living in Cyprus. One evening we were out and Dad was in a shop when we heard Turkish tanks coming down the main road. He asked me to count them which I did. Appears my count was correct compared to one of the INT NCOs' elsewhere who also did a count. I remember Dad being particularly pleased the next day when he came back from work but now I think about it I wonder did he take all the credit !!!!
Regards
Brett

 

[lancer]

Finally saw Avatar on cable the other day. Like everyone else says, there was good stuff and not so good stuff. Really liked the special effects. The skyscapes and landscapes were beautiful. The flying sequences were great. As far as the story line goes, I had a hard time separating all the other movies I saw within Avatar from what I was watching on the screen. I kept saying to myself, well that's from Dancing with Wolves and that's from Last of the Mohicans, etc. Anyway, the movie was about a 3 1/2 out of 5 for me. Cameron has done other films I liked alot better. Thought Stephen Lang was good as the bad guy, as was Ribisi as the corporate dork. -- Al

 

[thebritfarmer]

I don't know why but whenever I see previews of this I have the sudden urge to hang myself !!

 

[Rob]

I too just saw this the other night and quite enjoyed it.The effects were very good and it was a good bit of escapism.Reminded me of 'Aliens' quite a bit.The female helicopter pilot,wasn't she the policewoman in 'Lost'?.

Rob

 

[marco55]

Yes she was Rob.
Mark

 

[Rob]

Thanks Mark,thought she looked familiar.

Rob