Steven Chong
First Sergeant
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2005
- Messages
- 1,365
I read somewhere that the German need to rescue the Italians in Africa and Greece caused the 3 to 4 month delay in the launching of Barbarossa.
battle of hurtgen forest (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter panda1gen
- Start date
binder001
Command Sergeant Major
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2005
- Messages
- 2,729
On the invasion of Britain - I have little doubt that the Germans could probably forced the issue and landed at least some of their army on the British coast. The real trick in an invasion isn't just getting onto dry land, it's being able to sustain your forces. Looking at the traditions of the RN, they would have lost as many ships as necessary to keep inderdicting the supply lines. The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine would have countered, but losses would have been high for everyone. Additionally, every Stuka or Ju88 that's attacking a British cruiser is one that is NOT helping the Army maintain its beachhead.
Barbarossa - Yes, the delay caused by the undesired Balkan campaign is credited with delaying the attack so that General Winter came to the aid of the Russians. One German general writing after the war claimed that if the generals had been turned loose earlier to use fully mobile tactics against the Soviet juggernaut that they could have bled the Russians dry. Sort of like taking on a giant with a rapier. If you can keep moving and stabbing, eventually the giant will fall.
Gary
Barbarossa - Yes, the delay caused by the undesired Balkan campaign is credited with delaying the attack so that General Winter came to the aid of the Russians. One German general writing after the war claimed that if the generals had been turned loose earlier to use fully mobile tactics against the Soviet juggernaut that they could have bled the Russians dry. Sort of like taking on a giant with a rapier. If you can keep moving and stabbing, eventually the giant will fall.
Gary
OzDigger
Colonel
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2006
- Messages
- 8,346
I read somewhere that the German need to rescue the Italians in Africa and Greece caused the 3 to 4 month delay in the launching of Barbarossa.
Yep, and Adolf wasn't very happy about that
And the Italians also didn't have much luck when they tried to invade France.
Louis Badolato
Lieutenant General
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2005
- Messages
- 17,364
Yep, and Adolf wasn't very happy about that
And the Italians also didn't have much luck when they tried to invade France.
That because all the tough Italians moved to Brooklyn, the Bronx and 'Jersey between 1885 and 1930. Don't you watch the Sopranos?
OzDigger
Colonel
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2006
- Messages
- 8,346
Lol, it's easy to be "tough" when you have a gun and the other guy doesn't.
panda1gen
Major
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2005
- Messages
- 6,204
I have just re-read this and wasn't it Fun!!!!
Pick any sub thread, they are all winners. Louis, much as I'd love to I'm not going to do Monty and Patton again....today at least LOL.
First, getting on and off the beaches. I've been to all of them and the British and Canadian beaches were flatter, no bluffs like Omaha or flooded area immediately behind like Utah but Gold, Juno and Sword immediately hit concrete defense in depth to a greater degree than the others as they were straight into fortified towns. The funnies flattened everthing in the way, opening the roads off but strongpoints such as 'Hillman' for example, behind the seafront town, did hold things up for the infantry.
I thought an account from the 3 division ('Monty's Ironsides') was interesting though when it referred to advance to a village a few miles inshore, 'strung out on a low ridge' that was perfect for defence - 4 miles from Caen. 'The panzer grenadiers got there in strength and stayed another six weeks'. What also interested me was the 'failure of intelligence' about the defensibility of these places, that looked flat from the air. With the resistance and total air superiority? It also says that 21 Pz division attacked from that general area and lost 20 pz4s on DDay. What if they had been at Omaha?
As for Sealion and the RN, the Germans would have lost heavily in the invasion fleet of wooden barges, could they even have got their capital ships from Germany in close support? Anyone who ever underestimates the RN deserves what they get, it is much more than equipment, ask the Italians who had a far better Navy in the Med at the start. The real point though is the resupply would have been murdered, making the N African route past Malta look like a milk run. The Luftwaffe would not have stopped MTBs and destoyers at night and would have struggled against, but undoubtedly severely hurt the battlefleet in the day.
Also the battlefleet would have been escorted by the RAF - who performed magnificently at Dunkirk but are often forgotten. So you would need to destroy the RAF as well. Hmmmmmm
If a substantial part of the invasion force or its supplies went down - as they surely would have done - who would have been the victor? The RN was crucial to Britain of course but if the panzer divisions went with them? Risk too great? He had already turned to Russia who was always the main event for Hitler, France was just a sideshow to stop a war on two fronts, he valued and wanted to ally with the British Empire?
Pick any sub thread, they are all winners. Louis, much as I'd love to I'm not going to do Monty and Patton again....today at least LOL.
First, getting on and off the beaches. I've been to all of them and the British and Canadian beaches were flatter, no bluffs like Omaha or flooded area immediately behind like Utah but Gold, Juno and Sword immediately hit concrete defense in depth to a greater degree than the others as they were straight into fortified towns. The funnies flattened everthing in the way, opening the roads off but strongpoints such as 'Hillman' for example, behind the seafront town, did hold things up for the infantry.
I thought an account from the 3 division ('Monty's Ironsides') was interesting though when it referred to advance to a village a few miles inshore, 'strung out on a low ridge' that was perfect for defence - 4 miles from Caen. 'The panzer grenadiers got there in strength and stayed another six weeks'. What also interested me was the 'failure of intelligence' about the defensibility of these places, that looked flat from the air. With the resistance and total air superiority? It also says that 21 Pz division attacked from that general area and lost 20 pz4s on DDay. What if they had been at Omaha?
As for Sealion and the RN, the Germans would have lost heavily in the invasion fleet of wooden barges, could they even have got their capital ships from Germany in close support? Anyone who ever underestimates the RN deserves what they get, it is much more than equipment, ask the Italians who had a far better Navy in the Med at the start. The real point though is the resupply would have been murdered, making the N African route past Malta look like a milk run. The Luftwaffe would not have stopped MTBs and destoyers at night and would have struggled against, but undoubtedly severely hurt the battlefleet in the day.
Also the battlefleet would have been escorted by the RAF - who performed magnificently at Dunkirk but are often forgotten. So you would need to destroy the RAF as well. Hmmmmmm
If a substantial part of the invasion force or its supplies went down - as they surely would have done - who would have been the victor? The RN was crucial to Britain of course but if the panzer divisions went with them? Risk too great? He had already turned to Russia who was always the main event for Hitler, France was just a sideshow to stop a war on two fronts, he valued and wanted to ally with the British Empire?