Battle of Trafalgar (1 Viewer)

[Cardigan600]

Yo Troopers, you know sometimes how the Historians get it wrong IE: Like the Ancient Egyptians and the Pyramids etc and who built them. Well watched the Documentary of Trafalgar last night followed by the "Forgotten Hero of Trafalgar, and it turns out it wasn't Admiral Nelson that won Victory over the French & Spanish but a guy I have never heard mentioned before Admiral Collingwood. Collingwood was first into the battle having the fastest ship and destroyed the French Flag ship, meantime Nelson was shot half an hour into a four hour battle and was on the surgeons table dying of his wounds. Collingwood had to change his Flag to another Frigate his having taken so much damage,he was the man who accepted the surrender of the French & Spanish, also being a very good friend of Nelsons, he sounded a much better Seaman. His gun crews were the most highly trained and fastest gun crews on the high seas. He didn't believe in flogging his crew and had their total respect, they called him the "Father". He joined the Navy as an eleven year old, and served 44 years at sea, with only six of his fifty years served on land. They wouldn't even let the man come home to see his family he was such an important person, poor guy died at 61 on his way home. About time the Historians got their facts straight.
Bernard.

 

[Scott]

I can't watch it now but was it the same series in 4 parts on Youtube?

http://www.youtube.com/user/maritimenortheast#p/a/u/3/LoZBbz-0ut8

 

[UKReb]

Yo Troopers, you know sometimes how the Historians get it wrong IE: Like the Ancient Egyptians and the Pyramids etc and who built them. Well watched the Documentary of Trafalgar last night followed by the "Forgotten Hero of Trafalgar, and it turns out it wasn't Admiral Nelson that won Victory over the French & Spanish but a guy I have never heard mentioned before Admiral Collingwood. Collingwood was first into the battle having the fastest ship and destroyed the French Flag ship, meantime Nelson was shot half an hour into a four hour battle and was on the surgeons table dying of his wounds. Collingwood had to change his Flag to another Frigate his having taken so much damage,he was the man who accepted the surrender of the French & Spanish, also being a very good friend of Nelsons, he sounded a much better Seaman. His gun crews were the most highly trained and fastest gun crews on the high seas. He didn't believe in flogging his crew and had their total respect, they called him the "Father". He joined the Navy as an eleven year old, and served 44 years at sea, with only six of his fifty years served on land. They wouldn't even let the man come home to see his family he was such an important person, poor guy died at 61 on his way home. About time the Historians got their facts straight.
Bernard.

Yo Bernard

Great post old son not sure about all historians getting their facts right as Collingwood may well be unknown to the British public at large but I can assure you he was and still is revered by the Royal Navy.

I did not catch the programme you mentioned but your post brought back fond memories as I have had a long association with the Navy-not as a serving matelot but as a "civvy" project engineer managing the refits of their ships and submarines. During a long career with the boys with salt water veins I have attended many of their Trafalgar Night Dinners every October 29th in ship's wardrooms all over the world. The menu for such an evening rarely changes from ship to ship and reads something like this.

Breaking the line- Smoked Salmon

Cannon Balls- Melon Balls

Fleet Broadside- Beef Wellington

Collingwood's Courage- Poached Pears (and anyone who has tried to eat two whole poached pears will understand the irony of the word "courage")

Hardy's Finale- Cheese/Biscuits and Coffee (never French )

Enter the best bottle of port which is always passed to the left (portside) when everyone's glass is topped the Loyal Toast-Her Majesty the Queen-civilians stand whilst all naval officers by tradition remain seated. Glasses are topped again for the next toast The Immortal Memory of Trafalgar-All stand for this and remain in total silence for one minute. Normal procedure resumes with a guest speaker and on one such visit to a destroyer the name of which now escapes me was delivered by one Lt Cdr Locker Maddern- at the time (mid-1980's) THE Royal Naval expert on the Battle of Trafalgar. His lecture that night was entitled "Collingwood's Courage and Actions on that Immortal Day". It remains for me today the most stirring and eloquent speech I have ever heard from anyone-so exciting it sent tingles down one's back and one could almost smell the cordite and hear the splintering of the wood as French cannon raked The Royal Sovereign (Collingwood's ship). Superb stuff.

In Portsmouth there is an HMS Collingwood Training College; there is a Collingwood room at the Royal Naval College at Greenwich; in every RN establishment in Britain you will find a Collingwood House or Block. I have visited Collingwood House in Menorca where he lived until his death around 1810. There are Collingwood suberbs in far flung corners of the earth all named to commemorate the man from Canada to Melbourne Australia.

But the greatest honour given to Collingwood from his country?-try this- the next time you visit London take a trip to St Paul's Cathedral-locate Nelson's tomb-then examine the one directly next to it-read the inscription:-

Vice Admiral Cuthbert Collingwood
Hero of Trafalgar

Those who know-know only too well his contribution to the Battle of Trafalgar.

Reb

 

[aujj65]

Yo Troopers, you know sometimes how the Historians get it wrong IE: Like the Ancient Egyptians and the Pyramids etc and who built them. Well watched the Documentary of Trafalgar last night followed by the "Forgotten Hero of Trafalgar, and it turns out it wasn't Admiral Nelson that won Victory over the French & Spanish but a guy I have never heard mentioned before Admiral Collingwood. Collingwood was first into the battle having the fastest ship and destroyed the French Flag ship, meantime Nelson was shot half an hour into a four hour battle and was on the surgeons table dying of his wounds. Collingwood had to change his Flag to another Frigate his having taken so much damage,he was the man who accepted the surrender of the French & Spanish, also being a very good friend of Nelsons, he sounded a much better Seaman. His gun crews were the most highly trained and fastest gun crews on the high seas. He didn't believe in flogging his crew and had their total respect, they called him the "Father". He joined the Navy as an eleven year old, and served 44 years at sea, with only six of his fifty years served on land. They wouldn't even let the man come home to see his family he was such an important person, poor guy died at 61 on his way home. About time the Historians got their facts straight.
Bernard.

Yo Bernard

Great post old son not sure about all historians getting their facts right as Collingwood may well be unknown to the British public at large but I can assure you he was and still is revered by the Royal Navy.

I did not catch the programme you mentioned but your post brought back fond memories as I have had a long association with the Navy-not as a serving matelot but as a "civvy" project engineer managing the refits of their ships and submarines. During a long career with the boys with salt water veins I have attended many of their Trafalgar Night Dinners every October 29th in ship's wardrooms all over the world. The menu for such an evening rarely changes from ship to ship and reads something like this.

Breaking the line- Smoked Salmon

Cannon Balls- Melon Balls

Fleet Broadside- Beef Wellington

Collingwood's Courage- Poached Pears (and anyone who has tried to eat two whole poached pears will understand the irony of the word "courage")

Hardy's Finale- Cheese/Biscuits and Coffee (never French )

Enter the best bottle of port which is always passed to the left (portside) when everyone's glass is topped the Loyal Toast-Her Majesty the Queen-civilians stand whilst all naval officers by tradition remain seated. Glasses are topped again for the next toast The Immortal Memory of Trafalgar-All stand for this and remain in total silence for one minute. Normal procedure resumes with a guest speaker and on one such visit to a destroyer the name of which now escapes me was delivered by one Lt Cdr Locker Maddern- at the time (mid-1980's) THE Royal Naval expert on the Battle of Trafalgar. His lecture that night was entitled "Collingwood's Courage and Actions on that Immortal Day". It remains for me today the most stirring and eloquent speech I have ever heard from anyone-so exciting it sent tingles down one's back and one could almost smell the cordite and hear the splintering of the wood as French cannon raked The Royal Sovereign (Collingwood's ship). Superb stuff.

In Portsmouth there is an HMS Collingwood Training College; there is a Collingwood room at the Royal Naval College at Greenwich; in every RN establishment in Britain you will find a Collingwood House or Block. I have visited Collingwood House in Menorca where he lived until his death around 1810. There are Collingwood suberbs in far flung corners of the earth all named to commemorate the man from Canada to Melbourne Australia.

But the greatest honour given to Collingwood from his country?-try this- the next time you visit London take a trip to St Paul's Cathedral-locate Nelson's tomb-then examine the one directly next to it-read the inscription:-

Vice Admiral Cuthbert Collingwood
Hero of Trafalgar

Those who know-know only too well his contribution to the Battle of Trafalgar.
Reb

I actually knew all this! Well there's a first eh! : The history of our Great Nation is something that is sorely missed, especially being taught in schools.

Jeff

 

[Russell]

Good post Cardigan600. It's interesting to have it brought up straight and centre.

Maybe the trick for Nelson was dying at Trafalgar (and his past successes). That's usually an eye catcher.

 

[Rob]

I actually knew all this! Well there's a first eh! : The history of our Great Nation is something that is sorely missed, especially being taught in schools.

Jeff

Me too Jeff, whenever I think of Trafalgar I try and imagine what it was like aboard the French ship Bucentaure as HMS Victory went passed her stern and raked her through her windows. She pretty much gutted the ship inside out, 197 were killed and many more wounded as gun after gun fired the length of the ship. What it must have been like as those cannon balls flew along her lower decks is beyond imagination. I read a statement in which a Bucentaure survivor described heaps of mangled corpses without heads,legs arms or cut in two and the decks flooded with blood,cannons knocked over and all manner of items being blown around like missiles.In the minutes it took Victory to pass she put Bucentuare out of the battle as a fighting ship.

At least at Waterloo you were out in the open with a chance the ball would go by you!

Rob

 

[Mitch]

I watched that set of documentaries and not really knowing a great deal about the battle it was fascinating.

Rob....

Amazing what they must have went through but, as they were the enemy tough but, it would have been a sight to behold the naval power unleashed
Mitch

 

[Cardigan600]

Yo Bernard

Great post old son not sure about all historians getting their facts right as Collingwood may well be unknown to the British public at large but I can assure you he was and still is revered by the Royal Navy.

I did not catch the programme you mentioned but your post brought back fond memories as I have had a long association with the Navy-not as a serving matelot but as a "civvy" project engineer managing the refits of their ships and submarines. During a long career with the boys with salt water veins I have attended many of their Trafalgar Night Dinners every October 29th in ship's wardrooms all over the world. The menu for such an evening rarely changes from ship to ship and reads something like this.

Breaking the line- Smoked Salmon

Cannon Balls- Melon Balls

Fleet Broadside- Beef Wellington

Collingwood's Courage- Poached Pears (and anyone who has tried to eat two whole poached pears will understand the irony of the word "courage")

Hardy's Finale- Cheese/Biscuits and Coffee (never French )

Enter the best bottle of port which is always passed to the left (portside) when everyone's glass is topped the Loyal Toast-Her Majesty the Queen-civilians stand whilst all naval officers by tradition remain seated. Glasses are topped again for the next toast The Immortal Memory of Trafalgar-All stand for this and remain in total silence for one minute. Normal procedure resumes with a guest speaker and on one such visit to a destroyer the name of which now escapes me was delivered by one Lt Cdr Locker Maddern- at the time (mid-1980's) THE Royal Naval expert on the Battle of Trafalgar. His lecture that night was entitled "Collingwood's Courage and Actions on that Immortal Day". It remains for me today the most stirring and eloquent speech I have ever heard from anyone-so exciting it sent tingles down one's back and one could almost smell the cordite and hear the splintering of the wood as French cannon raked The Royal Sovereign (Collingwood's ship). Superb stuff.

In Portsmouth there is an HMS Collingwood Training College; there is a Collingwood room at the Royal Naval College at Greenwich; in every RN establishment in Britain you will find a Collingwood House or Block. I have visited Collingwood House in Menorca where he lived until his death around 1810. There are Collingwood suberbs in far flung corners of the earth all named to commemorate the man from Canada to Melbourne Australia.

But the greatest honour given to Collingwood from his country?-try this- the next time you visit London take a trip to St Paul's Cathedral-locate Nelson's tomb-then examine the one directly next to it-read the inscription:-

Vice Admiral Cuthbert Collingwood
Hero of Trafalgar

Those who know-know only too well his contribution to the Battle of Trafalgar.

Reb

Yo Vice Admiral Bob of the White, very impressed and here is me thinking you are just an old Reb and your a VIP rubbing shoulders with Admirals and Lords of the Admiralty, doffing my cap as I write this Sir, very interesting stuff Bob, but there again your old Mate Rob puts a post up, and all we get is Nelson & the Victory, not a mention of Admiral Cuthbert Collingwood first into action and destroying the French Flagship. Its OK the Navy remembering this remarkable Sailor, but as Rob just proved the point I was trying to make, mention Trafalgar and everyone will answer Lord Nelson. I know Collingwood was thought of more around the World than the UK, but why, maybe Russell hit the nail on the head, Nelson got killed so he was the hero. About time the History books were re-written and the real hero of Trafalgar got recognized as such.
Bernard.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Thanks for the history lesson Bob and Bernard. Vice Admiral Cuthbert Collingwood has joined my pantheon of great naval heroes. I wonder of Stadden ever made a figure of him?

 

[Cardigan600]

Thanks for the history lesson Bob and Bernard. Vice Admiral Cuthbert Collingwood has joined my pantheon of great naval heroes. I wonder of Stadden ever made a figure of him?

Yo Louis, afraid not mate only Horatio Nelson, my point of the thread
Bernard.

 

[Russell]

Just found this painting of him on the net.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Yo Louis, afraid not mate only Horatio Nelson, my point of the thread
Bernard.

Well, then we need to start a campaign to get someone to do a figure of Vice Admiral Collingwood! I'll pester Andy, John Jenkins and Rick from Figarti . . .

 

[Russell]

Hi Bernard (Cardigan600) and the rest of you Treefroggers.

Well Bernard because of this thread you started, last night I made my bedtime reading the battle of Trafalger. Having refreshed my memory*, I'm beginning to understand why Nelson may deserve the credit attached to his name for this encounter.
He may have died early into the encounter but the unusual way the British faced the French and Spanish, not parallel, but in two vertical columns was Nelson's plan which he'd been hammering away at for days. And so it can be argued that he was the architect of the victory.
So what have you got for me to read tonight?

Cheers
_________________________________________________________________

*I'm the type of guy who needs to read about something at least ten times before I begin to have a sense of permanence in my understanding, I'm also of the age and type to go into the pantry having completely forgotten why I bothered.

 

[Spitfrnd]

This is a most interesting thread. I have a couple of questions though based on what I have read. Taking nothing away from Collingwood, who was awknowledged by Nelson at the time to have brilliantly managed his ship to open the attack, it is not true that Nelson lived on for over two hours during the battle and during that time, Nelson's flag captain Hardy was in charge in accordance with fleet regulations? Also, it seemed to me that Trafalgar had many heros and commander's whose actions helped decide the outcome. Not the least of these would appear to be the captains of the Minotaur and Spartiate who on what seems to have been their own inititive crossed the path of 5 French ships attempting to counter attack the battered British ships already engaged from the two main attacks. I also thought the Colliingwood remained on his flagship through and after the action, even when it was later under tow?

Also, just to clarify, I understand all the ships involved in the main action were ships of the line, not frigates, who would have been seriously underarmed for the encounter. The four frigates of the task force were held back from the main two lines of battle.

 

[Scott]

Re: Battle of Trafalgar_Replicant NELSON

[/IMG]

 

[Scott]

Painted this one for my brother a ways back. My brother-in-Law has another.

FULL NELSON....

Three Quarter NELSON..

The Royal Navy seems to be a favorite here.

 

[kogu]

Great thread, Bernard,
and an extra thanks to the Reb.
I am always impressed by your contributions and your vast knowledge of history. Respects!
Konrad

 

[UKReb]

This is a most interesting thread. I have a couple of questions though based on what I have read. Taking nothing away from Collingwood, who was awknowledged by Nelson at the time to have brilliantly managed his ship to open the attack, it is not true that Nelson lived on for over two hours during the battle and during that time, Nelson's flag captain Hardy was in charge in accordance with fleet regulations? Also, it seemed to me that Trafalgar had many heros and commander's whose actions helped decide the outcome. Not the least of these would appear to be the captains of the Minotaur and Spartiate who on what seems to have been their own inititive crossed the path of 5 French ships attempting to counter attack the battered British ships already engaged from the two main attacks. I also thought the Colliingwood remained on his flagship through and after the action, even when it was later under tow?

Also, just to clarify, I understand all the ships involved in the main action were ships of the line, not frigates, who would have been seriously underarmed for the encounter. The four frigates of the task force were held back from the main two lines of battle.

Bill

I remember during one of our previous discussions on the Napoleonic Wars when I recommended to you a Bonaparte book (much to Matt's chagrin ) telling you that although I did not collect the figures of this conflict I had a great interest in this particular era. I'll add to that-that I have an almost obscene penchant for the naval battles during that turbulent period in England's history. Consequently, I am fully aware that I might be in danger of boring you if I attempt to answer your questions-however, to that end pre-apologies.

Warships of the Nelson era were rated according to the number of cannon they carried. A first rate ship carried up to a 100 guns, 32 pounder guns on the lowest deck, 18 pounders on the next, 12 pounders on the weather deck. The ships carronades were not originally counted in the rating of a ship, therefore a 38 gun frigate in fact could be carrying up to 48 powerful guns. The most important rates of ship were first; second and third raters-ships that were able to sail in line of battle. The fifth & sixth rate ships were also very important these were the frigates-The eyes of the fleet.

At the battle of Trafalgar there were 27 British ships of the line and 6 frigates under the command of Captain Blackwood

Ships of this era were weakest at the bow and at the stern. If an attacking ship could manoeuvre to cross the enemy in front or behind then they could fire directly down the length of the ship as the guns came to bear-described as "raking the enemy" which always had a devastating effect. In order to rake the enemy it was necessary to sail through the enemy's line. This tactic exposed the lead ship of a column to the broadsides of the enemy, this position was usually taken by a 1st rate or 3 decker. The Victory (Nelson) and Royal Sovereign (Collingwood) performed this role at Trafalgar as head of the Weather column and the Lee column respectively. This was a very unorthodox tactic and only the boldest and most confident commanders utilised it. Usual tactics at this time especially the French and Spanish fleet was in line ahead (line of battle) thus both fleets running parallel to each others broadsides.

Worth bearing in mind the different tactics used by the opposing fleets. The French tactic was to fire on the upward roll of the ship to take out the masts and rigging with the aim of destroying the manoeuverability of the enemy ship. The British used the opposite by firing on the down roll into the enemy hull creating a storm of splinters that inevitably wiped out the enemy gun crews. So the tendency was for the French guns to be pointing high and the British low as the ships heeled in the wind.

Collingwood's ship Royal Sovereign had just come out of refit and had a brand new copper plated hull consequently she was the fastest first rate vessel in Nelson's fleet. As the lead ship in the Lee column she engaged first -almost completely taking out with her first broadside the Spanish Admiral Alvava's flagship Santa Ana but also taking severe damage herself. Following the death of Nelson- Hardy informed Collingwood who immediately assumed the role of commander in chief transferring his flag to HMS Euryalus and continued the battle even ignoring Nelson's final orders for anchoring the fleet to shelter from an expected storm.

You are correct Bill there was indeed a number of British heroes at Trafalgar and you mention two in particular the captains of Minotaur & Spartiate respectively commanded by Captain Charles Mansfield and Captain Sir Francis Lafurey. Their action in getting between the French vessels was a bit of a fluke on two counts-one- Minotaur was dragging her keel (smothered in weed) therefore reducing her speed and was late joining the melee. Whilst two-Spartiate had been a French man-of-war captured at the Battle of the Nile and two of the French vessels believed she was still French and about to engage the Minotaur. Both of these flukes enabled both British vessels to break up the French line and force the surrender of the lead ship Neptuno.

A bit of a diatribe there Bill but I hope it has gone some way in clarifying your questions

Bob

 

[Rob]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raking_fire

Bill,here is wiki's definition of raking which I described in my first post and Bob has followed up on.

Anoither big factor at Trafalgar was rate of fire, British crews were drilled relentlessly on gunnery and as a result were said to fire two shots to every French shot and up to three for evey Spanish shot.This obviously was a huge plus and can clearly be seen in comparing the numbers of ships destroyed and damaged on both sides. Discipline in Nelsons navy is always focussed on Flogging, but the gun crews discipline on that day was vital and battle winning.
Rob

 

[OzDigger]

Yo Troopers, you know sometimes how the Historians get it wrong IE: Like the Ancient Egyptians and the Pyramids etc and who built them. Well watched the Documentary of Trafalgar last night followed by the "Forgotten Hero of Trafalgar, and it turns out it wasn't Admiral Nelson that won Victory over the French & Spanish but a guy I have never heard mentioned before Admiral Collingwood. Collingwood was first into the battle having the fastest ship and destroyed the French Flag ship, meantime Nelson was shot half an hour into a four hour battle and was on the surgeons table dying of his wounds. Collingwood had to change his Flag to another Frigate his having taken so much damage,he was the man who accepted the surrender of the French & Spanish, also being a very good friend of Nelsons, he sounded a much better Seaman. His gun crews were the most highly trained and fastest gun crews on the high seas. He didn't believe in flogging his crew and had their total respect, they called him the "Father". He joined the Navy as an eleven year old, and served 44 years at sea, with only six of his fifty years served on land. They wouldn't even let the man come home to see his family he was such an important person, poor guy died at 61 on his way home. About time the Historians got their facts straight.
Bernard.

Hi Bernard, stimulating stuff. Firstly could you lmk what you learned about who built the pyramids.

Myths and false truths have always interested me and I am an avid watcher of QI (Quite Interesting) hosted by Stephen Fry who some will remember from the Blackadder TV series.

For example if you ask 100 people who discovered Australia the vast majority will say Captain Cook. Of course the truth is he was a Lt at the time and there were several Europeans before him, not to mention Aboriginals etc. And of course no one has heard of Charles Green the Astronomer on the Endeavour that taught Cook the details of global navigation etc.