Britains 4.7" Naval Gun (1 Viewer)

[johnnybach]

Hot on the heels of my Britains 18" Howitzer - come the equally well know Artillery piece - the 4.7" Naval Guns - as used most successfully in the Boer War.

I purchased this one from The Dorset Model shop - as an intact model - with all parts - but extremely worn and loosely fitted, with paint in a generally poor condition. I determined to take it apart and fix up all of the worn parts and repaint it. But first - just a little history;

British troops were taking a pounding from the Boers - and to plug the gap in the British arsenal, these guns were demounted from HMS Terrible by the Britsh Naval Brigade, and within 48 hours, carriage and wheels were designed and made up and fitted. They were put into action almost immediately - to good effect. At last the British had a gun that could reach their foe.

Doubtless inspired by these feats - Britains made a model of it in the early 1900's. There have been several versions of it since then - and my rather tired looking model dates from 1915. As you can see from the pics below - this one is dated 1915 on the carriage ( centre - under the word patent) - and has the French designation "Deposé" under the barrel alongside it's French registration Number (Rd. 388707). You can also find this number on the wheels and carriage (behind the front right wheel). The carriage also has the date 1915 cast in on the right hand side. the left side has "Made in England" cast in. My model also has the sighting mechanism - which is very loose - and looks like it has been added at a later date ( to replace the lost original?), which I will fit again - only with a much tighter fit. I the intend to repaint - so that it may be able to be towed behind my new Steam Tractor.

I'm at the early stages - so here are three pics - showing the parts after I have removed the axle and barrel pivot rods. The first shows the parts before cleaning. The second two are at slightly different angles - so that the numbers/date etcetera may be seen better - just swith between pics. Note the word "Deposé" followed by the Rd Number on the barrel underside. I'll probably begin repainting later on this evening. jb

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Johnny

I was wondering if you would get to this one it’s a great piece and I am sure it will be great when it is complete. Can’t wait yo see it in action with the tractor

Dave

 

[johnnybach]

Hi Johnny

I was wondering if you would get to this one it’s a great piece and I am sure it will be great when it is complete. Can’t wait yo see it in action with the tractor

Dave

I'm looking forward to that too Dave. In fact, I was going to start with this one - when out of the blue, I won the barrel and mechanism of the big Howitzer, and just couldn't resist putting the two pieces together. The rest of the project just fell into place once I had started that.

I have read somewhere, that there was also a limber for this piece too - but can't seem to find a picture of it online. I did find a pic of a real 4.7 though - showing some kind of big limber, which appears to be the gun being towed out of an arena by sailors - which was dated 1900.(pic below).

My limber for the big-un looks to be about the same size - so I'll use that for now.

P.S. I never got to start painting this one tonight - as I forgot that James Bond was dealing with Spectre on British TV tonight - so watched that instead.{sm4} Great Movie! jb

 

[Obee]

JB,

I have assembled and painted a couple of the Mountford 4.7" gun kits for collectors over the years.

the first is from the Boer War Gun on "Percy Scott" carriage and features the naval gun crew,



while the other is with a 'Woolwich' carriage and used on the Western Front by the Royal Garrison Artillery.



What are you plans ??? An oxen team to pull your gun ???

John

 

[johnnybach]

JB,

I have assembled and painted a couple of the Mountford 4.7" gun kits for collectors over the years.

the first is from the Boer War Gun on "Percy Scott" carriage and features the naval gun crew,

View attachment 225013

while the other is with a 'Woolwich' carriage and used on the Western Front by the Royal Garrison Artillery.

View attachment 225014

What are you plans ??? An oxen team to pull your gun ???

John

Hi John - Happy New Year.

Well......... Nice work......... I do happen to have a couple of oxen John- but they are really spoken for - as they will be towing a Giant barrel of water, when I make it up - as they are just castings at the moment.

My original plan was to have my new Steam Tractor pulling it (with the limber, of course). I nicked the idea from Luiz - who wanted to create an Artillery Park, where the guns went for repairs/refurbishment etc. The tractor tows them from point to point for repairs to take place.

I'll keep that idea of Oxen - and maybe Naval Brigade figures too - in mind though - as I'll maybe get a couple more oxen (Dorset) and maybe just swap 'em around from time to time.

Cheers for the idea. jb

 

[Artillery_crazy]

Hi JB,

Great new project......
Cheers
Luiz
I may have a couple of pictures to share of the 4.7 and the limber.....let me check !!:salute:::salute::

Hi John - Happy New Year.

Well......... Nice work......... I do happen to have a couple of oxen John- but they are really spoken for - as they will be towing a Giant barrel of water, when I make it up - as they are just castings at the moment.

My original plan was to have my new Steam Tractor pulling it (with the limber, of course). I nicked the idea from Luiz - who wanted to create an Artillery Park, where the guns went for repairs/refurbishment etc. The tractor tows them from point to point for repairs to take place.

I'll keep that idea of Oxen - and maybe Naval Brigade figures too - in mind though - as I'll maybe get a couple more oxen (Dorset) and maybe just swap 'em around from time to time.

Cheers for the idea. jb

 

[theBaron]

Holy cow!

Reading the discussion about plans for the restored piece, another idea came into my head: It's a naval rifle, so, how 'bout a ship with turrets big enough to house it?

Prost!
Brad

 

[johnnybach]

Hi JB,

Great new project......
Cheers
Luiz
I may have a couple of pictures to share of the 4.7 and the limber.....let me check !!:salute:::salute::

Cheers Luiz - that would be good - I haven't seen the Britains limber for this gun. jb

 

[johnnybach]

Holy cow!

Reading the discussion about plans for the restored piece, another idea came into my head: It's a naval rifle, so, how 'bout a ship with turrets big enough to house it?

Prost!
Brad

If you only knew the "good works" I had to put in to get these into the house!!!!{eek3}

If I went along with that idea - I would never stop housework for long enough to complete it!

Aaaaaargh! jb


Anyhoo Brad - it's finished - so here's a couple or so pics. What you can't see, are a number of tiny "plates" that I used to "beef up" the somewhat loose fit of some of the parts - such as the telecopic gun sight - which was extremely loose. I also fabricated some end plates for the axles - so the wheels are now much tighter. Most of these parts are on inside areas - or behind those massive wheels - so will not be seen - but the whole thing is now much "tighter"

Oh! - and before anyone asks - yes it can shoot matchsticks across the room - but rest assured I won't be aiming at anything precious!! They take too long to repair!{sm2}



As you can see - I have hitched the Naval 4.7" Gun to my existing Tractor and limber - which I always intended from the start. But below - I have also included in my pic., my 18" heavy Howitzer. Both made by Britains of course - although this latest gun is an early one, dating from 1915 and with French manufacturers markings - so especially welcome to my small collection. Hope you like 'em too. jb:salute::

 

[Artillery_crazy]

Cheers Luiz - that would be good - I haven't seen the Britains limber for this gun. jb

Hi JB,
Here we go....sorry if the pics are not studio like, just took them out of display/Repair shipment status and took these mug shots....{sm4}{sm4} Hope it helps...
The pics are of two sources, Britains and Toy Army Workshop. I will point out which is which....
These are for the TAW..the gun limber and horses have suffered recent damages so they are all ear marked for repairs {sm0}{sm0}..but you can have an idea. Also I was able to locate in an old auction picture the full set, but unfortunately the limber is a bit obscured by the actual gun...

 

[Artillery_crazy]

Hi JB,
As you see the auction picture shows the gunners riding on the limber incorrectly sitting on the foot board of the limber.....they should be seated on the limber itself...{sm4}{sm4}
A few more TAW....

 

[Artillery_crazy]

Hi JB,
Here we go....these are of a Britians limber coupled to a Mountford 4.7 inch gun...
As you see all my versions are for animal traction..,no manufacturer made them on metal, there are market samples in plastic kit versions,{sm2}{sm2}{sm2}
So all you need to do is convert the front rails to a short version of coupling device as you did for the 8 inch and you have it....
Good luck on the project, hope to have helped...
Cheers
Luiz

 

[johnnybach]

Hi JB,
Here we go....these are of a Britians limber coupled to a Mountford 4.7 inch gun...
As you see all my versions are for animal traction..,no manufacturer made them on metal, there are market samples in plastic kit versions,{sm2}{sm2}{sm2}
So all you need to do is convert the front rails to a short version of coupling device as you did for the 8 inch and you have it....
Good luck on the project, hope to have helped...
Cheers
Luiz

Thanks for the pix Luiz - they are all nice. Glad to see that There isn't a specific one for the Britains 4.7 - and almost any of the smaller limbers would be okay.

I rather like the TAW one that you have shown - that might suit the 4.7" - as it doesn't have the grab handles for carrying crew on it.

Now that's good - because I recently picked up one rather similar to the ones you have shown, from an e-bay purchase. I wanted it to go with another Britains gun (1201 Royal Artillery Gun) - and yet another e-bay find, a six Dorset Soldiers horse team - which will give me another Hores Artillery team. Here's the gun & limber below, ( the limber isn't Britains, but I think it's Dorset).



Now as that one is already spoken for - maybe I can use that one as a guide - and maybe make up another scratch-built of that size for my 4.7" Gun? I don't have any wheels yet - but I know that Dorset model Soldiers have them for Britains limbers. Hmmmmm. ............ I think I have some more bits to order from Dorset - with maybe a couple more Oxen....

Yes - thanks again Luiz - I think I'm starting to get a plan going here.

 

[Buster]

Thanks for the pix Luiz - they are all nice. Glad to see that There isn't a specific one for the Britains 4.7 - and almost any of the smaller limbers would be okay.

I rather like the TAW one that you have shown - that might suit the 4.7" - as it doesn't have the grab handles for carrying crew on it.

Now that's good - because I recently picked up one rather similar to the ones you have shown, from an e-bay purchase. I wanted it to go with another Britains gun (1201 Royal Artillery Gun) - and yet another e-bay find, a six Dorset Soldiers horse team - which will give me another Hores Artillery team. Here's the gun & limber below, ( the limber isn't Britains, but I think it's Dorset).

View attachment 225171

Now as that one is already spoken for - maybe I can use that one as a guide - and maybe make up another scratch-built of that size for my 4.7" Gun? I don't have any wheels yet - but I know that Dorset model Soldiers have them for Britains limbers. Hmmmmm. ............ I think I have some more bits to order from Dorset - with maybe a couple more Oxen....

Yes - thanks again Luiz - I think I'm starting to get a plan going here.

Perhaps more like 16 oxen, jb ..... just a thought! :wink2:^&grin

B.:salute::

 

[Artillery_crazy]

Hi JB,

Sorry it was my fault, I should have had placed a regular field piece limber next to the one from the 4.7s I sent you yesterday....so you could see the difference in sizes.
They seem identical but the one for the 4.7 is way bigger that the one for a regular field gun, they are somewhat the size of the limber you have just made for the 8"....these 4.7 limbers in some cases had seating arrangements for a garrison on the limber, but that was not usual....
The two I sent you pics of yesterday, are specifically for a 4.7 both the Britains one as the TAW.....To see how big they are compare them to the horses and the actual 4.7 gun on the other case.
A regular, smaller limber as we commonly see that would be paired up with a 13 or 18 pdr would not be sufficiently strong to limber a massive 4.7 gun.
Cheers
Luiz

Thanks for the pix Luiz - they are all nice. Glad to see that There isn't a specific one for the Britains 4.7 - and almost any of the smaller limbers would be okay.

I rather like the TAW one that you have shown - that might suit the 4.7" - as it doesn't have the grab handles for carrying crew on it.

Now that's good - because I recently picked up one rather similar to the ones you have shown, from an e-bay purchase. I wanted it to go with another Britains gun (1201 Royal Artillery Gun) - and yet another e-bay find, a six Dorset Soldiers horse team - which will give me another Hores Artillery team. Here's the gun & limber below, ( the limber isn't Britains, but I think it's Dorset).

View attachment 225171

Now as that one is already spoken for - maybe I can use that one as a guide - and maybe make up another scratch-built of that size for my 4.7" Gun? I don't have any wheels yet - but I know that Dorset model Soldiers have them for Britains limbers. Hmmmmm. ............ I think I have some more bits to order from Dorset - with maybe a couple more Oxen....

Yes - thanks again Luiz - I think I'm starting to get a plan going here.

 

[johnnybach]

Hi JB,

Sorry it was my fault, I should have had placed a regular field piece limber next to the one from the 4.7s I sent you yesterday....so you could see the difference in sizes.
They seem identical but the one for the 4.7 is way bigger that the one for a regular field gun, they are somewhat the size of the limber you have just made for the 8"....these 4.7 limbers in some cases had seating arrangements for a garrison on the limber, but that was not usual....
The two I sent you pics of yesterday, are specifically for a 4.7 both the Britains one as the TAW.....To see how big they are compare them to the horses and the actual 4.7 gun on the other case.
A regular, smaller limber as we commonly see that would be paired up with a 13 or 18 pdr would not be sufficiently strong to limber a massive 4.7 gun.
Cheers
Luiz

Okay Luiz - I understand. The wheels of my Britains version of the 4.7" gun are 4.5 centimetres in diameter. I can get a pair of wheels of that diameter from Dorset - and that can be the starting point for another fabrication. I just liked the overall look of the TAW - and some of the features of it.

In a perfect World, I would love to have a version that looks like this one below ( From the Internet - I think it is from an Auction House pic of one being sold. Would love to give a credit to them - but it didn't have one - Many thanks for it anyway, whoever you are.):salute:: Note the three gun-team members sitting across it - so it is wider than the smaller one I showed earlier. (noted for the design of my proposed planned one).

At least this number of Oxen is do-able! - and it looks pretty good too. ( Note that the gun in this pictured version is the later Britains split trail model - I have the earlier 1915 type.) Getting hold of another set of those boiler-plate wheels is the problem though. I'll keep watching for spare parts on e-bay, just in case - but will order the wheels from Dorset next time, anyway.



Many thanks for input Luiz - much appreciated jb

 

[johnnybach]

Perhaps more like 16 oxen, jb ..... just a thought! :wink2:^&grin

B.:salute::

Love it buddy! - but 18 Oxen??{eek3} I don't think that I have a cabinet big enough to display it! Have a look at the one I posted in reply to Luiz - now that I could do. Maybe not with the same wheels - but with something very similar.

Thanks for posting though - terrific set. :salute:: jb

 

[johnnybach]

I've been chatting online with a friend of mine - who recognised that pic, that I showed earlier - this one:



and he gave me some details about it - which I would like to share.

The pic, was from "Antique Toy World Magazine, sometime in 2012 - and it WAS for an Auction sale. It was originally made for a collector in Cleveland USA, and was amongst a series he commisioned entitled "Sets that Britains never made". It was custom-painted by Neil Rhodes, and depicted an 18-piece Boer War Royal Foot Artillery (RFA) team, with 8 Oxen towing a 4.7" gun with crew, officer handlers.

So.............many thanks to that Magazine for the gorgeous picture.

I just love that set - so have decided that is how my Gun is going to be displayed - as close to that format as I can get it. ( with maybe some additional crew members marching alongside with rifles at the trail????

I have put out a few feelers to see if I can get hold of a couple of those big boiler-plate wheels (so that I can build another limber for the gun) - but in the meantime, I will be ordering some "Cart" wheels of a similar diameter to those from Dorset ( along with many of the other figures and bits and pieces I will need). It probably won't be quick - but given some luck, I might finish it this year. I already have a suitable Britains Mounted Artillery Officer, which I've repaired and is currently being repainted. jb

 

[Obee]

I just love that set - so have decided that is how my Gun is going to be displayed - as close to that format as I can get it. ( with maybe some additional crew members marching alongside with rifles at the trail????

jb

From what I have seen about gunners in Victorian times and before that, they didn't carry rifles.
They relied upon the Infantry for local defence but they always had their guns loaded with shrapnel or splinter shot as an anti-personnel weapon.

You see that with the Britains Mountain Gun Mule set and the marching gunners.

John

 

[johnnybach]

From what I have seen about gunners in Victorian times and before that, they didn't carry rifles.
They relied upon the Infantry for local defence but they always had their guns loaded with shrapnel or splinter shot as an anti-personnel weapon.

You see that with the Britains Mountain Gun Mule set and the marching gunners.

John

Okay John - I'll take that as read then, although I have seen some other sets people have made up(online) with that sort of set up - that's what made me think it was okay. That will save a few bob on six castings anyway!^&grin

Any idea on how many Artillerymen would have made up the full crew????

I've had a bit of luck with those big boiler-plate wheels too. I had a chat with Giles Brown earlier on today - and he tells me that IF the new guys at Dorset Model Soldiers ( see the slight name change), will agree to sell me JUST the wheels - they WERE in the castings list - along with the rest of the parts for a 4.7 incher.

e-mail already sent - so waiting for a reply soon.

Cheers John, thanks for the info :salute:: jb