Britain's Greatest General - National Army Museum (2 Viewers)

[Louis Badolato]

My apologies if my posts have sidetracked thread, been really interesting talkng about it with you guys though. I will now get it back on track.

I couldn't believe it, my friend Louis just pm'd me and said he'd voted for HAIG!!!{eek3}{eek3}{eek3}{eek3}{eek3}

Ok, he might not have, but it made you look didn't it:wink2:

Rob

Pants on fire!{eek3}{sm2}{sm3}

 

[Mitch]

Chris...

My position is quite clear and, here it is I hate thieves cut their hands off no problem quite clear. I have not said that the death sentences were wrong for the war criminals, what I have said through my criminological and psychological education etc is that I don't see the horns and hooved feet argument.

Its been expressed that such and such is evil but, I am saying from the research and the reading behind the scenes of people like Hoess, Eichmann etc they were able to live a relatively normal life outside of the actions they undertook. They were able to have normal marriages have children adore them and do all the other things ''normal'' people do.

The only extraordinary thing was the work they undertook and, my point was that you cannot say the amount that took part in these acts and the einsatz actions were all evil. other circumstances had to be in existance for these acts to occur which, I have outlined in other posts.

Now, thats exactly the same as the bosnian war the acts in afghan and Iraq, 9/11, 7/11 and the list goes on. We deem them evil as it upholds our values and veiws of what is right or decent but, our decent values can, as has been shown, also slip whether state sanctioned and, we can discuss CIA torture and MI5 torture rendition as being state sanctioned but, it shows normal people can do extraordinarily nasty acts under many banners from state sanctioned or victorious troops to freedom fighters. They all need extra circumstances.

If we go down the road of saying these people are evil are they born evil or raised evil probably similar to the nature/nature debate. I suppose I am of the nature part for evil that circumstances and events bring this out in people. If we go with the other scale does that mean that Bormanns child was evil? well, no he was not, Heydrich's children have not become murderes etc nor did Eichmanns children.

This enigma is not so. I can see that we as human beings put into certain circumstances will do horrendous things. I hate theives as I said who prey on the hard working members of society now, I am quite mild mannered but, I could easily if I had my way sign a decree that sent them out to the combat zones and let them clear IED's and mines to save the lives of our troops. Now I am not evil but, I could do that. How many would shoot dead a burglar in their home? I bet plenty. There is no enigma on my part there would had I said the sentences were wrong for the war criminals of WWII and kept the strong stance on theft but, my reaction there was because it was recidivism and he new most of the people he was doing it to so, worse than stranger theft.

I just pointed out that these people were living and were able to live normal lives and, were not evil isolated madmen. I fully understand the evil debate and why its used so much but, in the cold light of day when you ask why or how can people do this it turns over rocks and shows things people don't want to see or accept.
Mitch

All apologies as I know I am taking this thread off topic so I will let this beaten horse trod off to the sunset and Mitch, Rob and I and whomever can continue this via pm.

BUT- I find those actions in Abu Gharaib as despicable as anything done by the nazis- they were a disgrace to my uniform and my country and should've been strung up and shot. Not only do their actions undermine the image of my nation, it also makes the sacrifices of the heroes who died to achieve my nation's aims over the years leading up to that in vain. To me, the CLEAR cut difference here is that the treatment in Abu Gharaib was in no means official US policy. Extermination of jews and others was official Nazi doctrine. As you readily admitted, some people just kill and I think we both agree they are outliers to the dilemma.

Again, I think your position is somewhat of an enigma wrapped in a mystery given some of the statements you have made regarding the nazis and then other polarized views against seemingly less aggregious claims against thievery...{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}

Wasn't Queen Elizabeth ( I hope I got her right- all apologies if I have the wrong Queen here), pretty much distrustful of the Nazis?? (Not sure where i am going with that :redface2:{sm4}).

I dunno bud, I am a bit simple in my views. I certainly understand what you are saying and your point, I just think if we fail to call evil, evil, then we forgot all those hard learned lessons from the 1940's.

All this talk of Evil has me jonesing to watch some Austin Powers flicks {sm4}

 

[trooper]

Germans as individuals I take as I find, like any other nation there are some you get on with and others you don't. But Germany as a nation state I do not trust. As a child my earliest memories are all of the war and I well remember the nights in the shelter, the bombs and general suffering of those times and I know it could easily happen again. Some of those old warriors are still out there and I don't think they have changed all that much and some are in a position to influence authority. They still need a careful eye. Trooper

 

[lancer]

My apologies if my posts have sidetracked thread, been really interesting talkng about it with you guys though. I will now get it back on track.

I couldn't believe it, my friend Louis just pm'd me and said he'd voted for HAIG!!!{eek3}{eek3}{eek3}{eek3}{eek3}

Ok, he might not have, but it made you look didn't it:wink2:

Rob

Hey, I would have voted for Haig, right after Slim. And I am not kidding.{sm4} -- Al

 

[Mitch]

trooper....

I think your right. Don't think there will be conflict again but, the fact that they are still loyal to the oath and cause they fought for. I have spoken to many (some rather notable) german survivors and I am struck at the fact that they hold the fervour they had during the early years and during the war. I think that type of ideology would be hard to just stop believing in and, have heard how they had to denounce and prove they were not national socialists at the de-nazification process at the end of WWII but fooled their captives.
Mitch

Germans as individuals I take as I find, like any other nation there are some you get on with and others you don't. But Germany as a nation state I do not trust. As a child my earliest memories are all of the war and I well remember the nights in the shelter, the bombs and general suffering of those times and I know it could easily happen again. Some of those old warriors are still out there and I don't think they have changed all that much and some are in a position to influence authority. They still need a careful eye. Trooper

 

[VIRIATO]

trooper....

I think your right. Don't think there will be conflict again but, the fact that they are still loyal to the oath and cause they fought for. I have spoken to many (some rather notable) german survivors and I am struck at the fact that they hold the fervour they had during the early years and during the war. I think that type of ideology would be hard to just stop believing in and, have heard how they had to denounce and prove they were not national socialists at the de-nazification process at the end of WWII but fooled their captives.
Mitch

Talking with these people must have been a very interesting experience.

Paulo

 

[Mitch]

Paulo....

It was. I could listen to veterans talk about their lives all day long be they allied or axis.
Mitch

Talking with these people must have been a very interesting experience.

Paulo

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Wow Mitch, I didn't realize that you were a small child during the Blitz.You must have
a lot of vivid memories to this day. Glad your here with us !

 

[Mitch]

PanzerAce1944...

Sorry mate my post must not have been clear. Iam only in my early thirties I grew up talking with my grandfathers RAF colleagues and visiting friends from anniversary meetings and, two uncles one who flew in Lancasters from Lincoln and one in the 8th Army. but, I have taken it upon myself to meet and speak and interview many veterans from both sides (a lot were former SS veterans I have a great interest in the Waffen SS) since I was 18 years old. I still keep in touch with some and, you always meet many at the local Elvington airfield from the RAF and, the Luftwaffe who visit the british bases.

Mitch

Wow Mitch, I didn't realize that you were a small child during the Blitz.You must have
a lot of vivid memories to this day. Glad your here with us !

 

[Currahee Chris]

Wow Mitch, I didn't realize that you were a small child during the Blitz.You must have
a lot of vivid memories to this day. Glad your here with us !

No my friend, that would be our buddy Trooper- our witty master of the one liners here on the forum who continuously cracks me up as his humor is really hard to beat. I am very very happy he is with us as well.

Talk to German or Japanese WW2 vets?? I'd rather bang my head against the wall. Or better yet, take an American, British or Aussie vet to the side, shake their hand and thank them for a job very well done.

 

[Rob]

No my friend, that would be our buddy Trooper- our witty master of the one liners here on the forum who continuously cracks me up as his humor is really hard to beat. I am very very happy he is with us as well.

Talk to German or Japanese WW2 vets?? I'd rather bang my head against the wall. Or better yet, take an American, British or Aussie vet to the side, shake their hand and thank them for a job very well done.

And maybe buy them a drink eh Chris?. Did I tell you I was at Alamein, Normandy, Battle of Britain, Waterloo and was on security duty the day Pamela Anderson opened the Harrods sale??? Mines a Vodka a T please mate:wink2:

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

....Did I tell you I was at Alamein, Normandy, Battle of Britain, Waterloo and was on security duty the day Pamela Anderson opened the Harrods sale??? Mines a Vodka a T please mate:wink2:

Rob

Hop a ride on the Tardis mate?? {sm4}{sm3}

Anything less than a double for you would be an insult mate.:smile2: I imagine your close quarter battle (CQB) skills were put to good use there at Harrods!! ^&grin

 

[Rob]

Hop a ride on the Tardis mate?? {sm4}{sm3}

Anything less than a double for you would be an insult mate.:smile2: I imagine your close quarter battle (CQB) skills were put to good use there at Harrods!! ^&grin

^&grin^&grin

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

Chris...

..There is no enigma on my part there would had I said the sentences were wrong for the war criminals of WWII and kept the strong stance on theft but, my reaction there was because it was recidivism and he new most of the people he was doing it to so, worse than stranger theft.

Bro-

help me out here- does the numeral "2" following the words World and War not connnote some kind of collective national recidivism?? :tongue: