Britain's Greatest General - National Army Museum (3 Viewers)

[Mitch]

viriato...

its a fair debate but, I don't see our bombing as war crimes or unecessary. Hitler had shown his colours in Rotterdam poland france and heavily during the Blitz just how uncaring he was for civillian casualties.

Now a Bully throwing his weight around comes up against a country with the Lanc and other bombers that could carry much larger payloads and the tables are turned.

Hitler et al talked the talk of total war and what they would do to london and they did with conventional bombing and V1 and V2's right up until the near end of the war. What they found was the RAF with Harris a unit prepared to give him total war back (something he did not expect)

All those civillians waved their flags and cheered at the misery the victorious german armed forces did all over the continent so, for me, its a great big tough. That may sound cynical but, how many germans were thinking we should not have bombed London for months???

War is a nasty thing and WWII was the mother of all nasties its hard for some to accept bombing in WWII but my grandmother was bombed quite a bit and her generation at the time loved the idea that we were giving them it back with spades

My sympathies go for the 55,000 crews who did not come home defending our country from the other little corporal (there is a trend there isn't there little corporals)
Mitch

 

[VIRIATO]

Hi Mitch and Rob, I fully understand your points and the bombing crews fully have my respect, they were doing their job and courageously so at that, taking a lot of casualties. Now I am not saying bombing Germany was a war crime, first of all it was about retribution (yes the Nazis started that path, as I mentioned in my previous post) and technically there seems to be a point that according to the law of the time if a city was defended (as Dresden was) it would be fair game...
Also it's very easy to debate this confortably in front of a computer, nearly 70 years later{eek3}... Of course in the thick of the fight, living through those surely hellish years, people in Britain would naturally want retribution and to end the war at all costs. If I lived at the time and had a son in the Army fighting the Nazis, of course I would have wanted the war to end with their defeat ASAP at whatever costs, even if the whole country had to be destroyed: I would want my son to live and my people to be free of aggression at all costs! And let them b....s reap what they sowed!
Now, from here, I feel that it really is a different thing to kill a Luftwaffe bomber pilot attacking my country or a civilian sleeping somewhere in Hamburg... And even in Britain I think many people, after all this years, will accept this without being judgmental, it's more about sorrow about the loss of life of civilian people that after all were very much like us. Don't you agree here?
About the German civilian responsibility for all this, of course they bear some, but IMHO given the right environment the crowds, any crowds, the majorities everywhere are easy prey to propaganda,nationalism, etc, it's the minorities that rebell and bring up changes. And at the start of the war probably most of these people had no clue about what was to happen to them and others during WWII... And then they would just want their side to win, regardless of rights or wrongs, until it became too much of a sacrifice for them to take it...I have no illusions about this, I guess mobs are irrational, just want food on their table and as such pay the price sooner or later... Humans, sometimes ugly humans that's what we all are, not saints...:redface2:

Paulo

 

[Louis Badolato]

All I will say on the subject is that the Germans got a lot less than they were willing to dish out. Remember, this is a country willingly following a man preaching genocide on other nationalities, races and religions. Had Hitler won, his opponents would have faced annihilation. Even as they were losing, the Nazis continued to carry out "the final solution" on the "sub-humans" they had deported to concentration camps from every occupied country in Europe. They invented terror bombing with the Stuka.

While I certainly understand Rod's point about innocent civilians - frankly a dead child of any nationality is an abomination in my eyes -but just because the Americans and British turned the tables on the Germans and turned out to be better at bombing than the Germans, I don't think we should be appologetic. We only finished what they started. And were a lot more merciful once we finished than they intended to be.

 

[Rob]

Hi Mitch and Rob, I fully understand your points and the bombing crews fully have my respect, they were doing their job and courageously so at that, taking a lot of casualties. Now I am not saying bombing Germany was a war crime, first of all it was about retribution (yes the Nazis started that path, as I mentioned in my previous post) and technically there seems to be a point that according to the law of the time if a city was defended (as Dresden was) it would be fair game...
Also it's very easy to debate this confortably in front of a computer, nearly 70 years later{eek3}... Of course in the thick of the fight, living through those surely hellish years, people in Britain would naturally want retribution and to end the war at all costs. If I lived at the time and had a son in the Army fighting the Nazis, of course I would have wanted the war to end with their defeat ASAP at whatever costs, even if the whole country had to be destroyed: I would want my son to live and my people to be free of aggression at all costs! And let them b....s reap what they sowed!
Now, from here, I feel that it really is a different thing to kill a Luftwaffe bomber pilot attacking my country or a civilian sleeping somewhere in Hamburg... And even in Britain I think many people, after all this years, will accept this without being judgmental, it's more about sorrow about the loss of life of civilian people that after all were very much like us. Don't you agree here?
About the German civilian responsibility for all this, of course they bear some, but IMHO given the right environment the crowds, any crowds, the majorities everywhere are easy prey to propaganda,nationalism, etc, it's the minorities that rebell and bring up changes. And at the start of the war probably most of these people had no clue about what was to happen to them and others during WWII... And then they would just want their side to win, regardless of rights or wrongs, until it became too much of a sacrifice for them to take it...I have no illusions about this, I guess mobs are irrational, just want food on their table and as such pay the price sooner or later... Humans, sometimes ugly humans that's what we all are, not saints...:redface2:

Paulo

You make some very good points indeed Paulo, and its a very interesting discussion. I do believe from the hundreds of people I've spoken to over the years at the museum and from the many books I've read that the people of that generation wanted Germany to get it back ten fold. This is the distinct impression I have got to this day, I've even had visitors from the East end who have refused to join a tour which included German tourists.

The thing is that a lot of people did/ do not make any distinction when it came to total Warfare, SS,Civilians,Luftwaffe,Gestapo they were all ' filth to be eradicated' ( words actually used to me by a an elderly British lady again from the East end). The trouble is mate that if one single person loses a much loved family member they would not and probably never would care if every single German civilian died in an air raid, I'm sure many Germans felt the same about us.

The trouble is Paulo that the Germans did themselves no favours. Their Subs killed children being evacuated, their Soldiers murdered captured prisoners and even their ' Knights of the air' that some people seem to admire so much did things like this;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...twaffe-massacred-38-pupils-London-school.html

This was not War, but the deliberate murder of children.It gave lie to the myth that German airman were all some sort of Chivalrous Knights of the air, this was not a mistake, the pilot waved at children before murdering them. Now not only did this have no effect on the War situation but it merely created even more hatred for the German's as a whole. As you say the call for retribution was so huge it could not be ignored. I think we should be careful not to gloss over the German peoples part in all this, yes there was of course somewhat of a crowd mentality, but be in no doubt they were rejoicing when the East end/Docks was ablaze , no one was urging restraint, no one cared, they has to be an element as Mitch has said that they never in a million years believed that the RAF/USAAF would in a few short years be visiting Hell on earth upon them.

You also have to question the type of people we are talking about here, I may be wrong of course, but I've never heard of British or American people singing 'Bombs on Germany' as their cities burned.

However, having said all that Paulo I fully agree all air raid deaths of civilians was another horrible part of this War, I'm not an ogre mate, I do feel sorrow for all those killed in Germany, its just I personally felt it had to be done. And that of course is a question that will rage down the ages.

One final point. Its as you say true in that not all Brits felt that way and here is a clear example. On the BBC the other week was an extended interview with an ex British para who was captured at Arnhem. He was put to work on various farms and factories and was sentenced to death for sabotaging (with his friend) a concrete mixing machine (if memory serves). He was in Dresden awaiting execution when the raids happened. His experiences were so moving I had to pull over , stop the car and listen. He described how when his building was blown apart himself and friends were able to escape into the inferno with absolutely no where to go. He watched as people quite simply ignited in front of him from the sheer temprature, men women and children all simply went up in flames in front of him. He called it a War crime and to this day thinks of all those Germans who were in effect baked alive in the brick air raid shelters they had built. He suffers nightmares to this day, has never been able to hold a relationship together and to this day distrusts all authority.

Paulo mate, it was a terrible terrible War as you said. I can only say thank God we won and thank god for all those who won it for us.

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

.....I'm not an ogre mate,

I quite agree- I do not think Ogre's quote "Femail" when talking war and history!! {sm4}{sm3}{sm4}{sm3}

You are still my favorite Eurorapper though mate......^&grin

 

[Rob]

I quite agree- I do not think Ogre's quote "Femail" when talking war and history!! {sm4}{sm3}{sm4}{sm3}

You are still my favorite Eurorapper though mate......^&grin

Thank you kind Sir!{sm4}

 

[VIRIATO]

You make some very good points indeed Paulo, and its a very interesting discussion. I do believe from the hundreds of people I've spoken to over the years at the museum and from the many books I've read that the people of that generation wanted Germany to get it back ten fold. This is the distinct impression I have got to this day, I've even had visitors from the East end who have refused to join a tour which included German tourists.

The thing is that a lot of people did/ do not make any distinction when it came to total Warfare, SS,Civilians,Luftwaffe,Gestapo they were all ' filth to be eradicated' ( words actually used to me by a an elderly British lady again from the East end). The trouble is mate that if one single person loses a much loved family member they would not and probably never would care if every single German civilian died in an air raid, I'm sure many Germans felt the same about us.

The trouble is Paulo that the Germans did themselves no favours. Their Subs killed children being evacuated, their Soldiers murdered captured prisoners and even their ' Knights of the air' that some people seem to admire so much did things like this;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...twaffe-massacred-38-pupils-London-school.html

This was not War, but the deliberate murder of children.It gave lie to the myth that German airman were all some sort of Chivalrous Knights of the air, this was not a mistake, the pilot waved at children before murdering them. Now not only did this have no effect on the War situation but it merely created even more hatred for the German's as a whole. As you say the call for retribution was so huge it could not be ignored. I think we should be careful not to gloss over the German peoples part in all this, yes there was of course somewhat of a crowd mentality, but be in no doubt they were rejoicing when the East end/Docks was ablaze , no one was urging restraint, no one cared, they has to be an element as Mitch has said that they never in a million years believed that the RAF/USAAF would in a few short years be visiting Hell on earth upon them.

You also have to question the type of people we are talking about here, I may be wrong of course, but I've never heard of British or American people singing 'Bombs on Germany' as their cities burned.

However, having said all that Paulo I fully agree all air raid deaths of civilians was another horrible part of this War, I'm not an ogre mate, I do feel sorrow for all those killed in Germany, its just I personally felt it had to be done. And that of course is a question that will rage down the ages.

One final point. Its as you say true in that not all Brits felt that way and here is a clear example. On the BBC the other week was an extended interview with an ex British para who was captured at Arnhem. He was put to work on various farms and factories and was sentenced to death for sabotaging (with his friend) a concrete mixing machine (if memory serves). He was in Dresden awaiting execution when the raids happened. His experiences were so moving I had to pull over , stop the car and listen. He described how when his building was blown apart himself and friends were able to escape into the inferno with absolutely no where to go. He watched as people quite simply ignited in front of him from the sheer temprature, men women and children all simply went up in flames in front of him. He called it a War crime and to this day thinks of all those Germans who were in effect baked alive in the brick air raid shelters they had built. He suffers nightmares to this day, has never been able to hold a relationship together and to this day distrusts all authority.

Paulo mate, it was a terrible terrible War as you said. I can only say thank God we won and thank god for all those who won it for us.

Rob

This is very interesting stuff. Before I get back to work^&grin I'd just like to remind that there were some Germans that did oppose the Nazis, and generally paid with their lives for it. Not just Stauffenberg... Another point that would be interesting to discuss is how much responsibility the ordinary Germans had in the Holocaust, how much they did know and how much they did condone. Good stuff, this will make me read and learn more...:rolleyes2: Gotta go now...^&grin

Paulo

 

[VIRIATO]

You make some very good points indeed Paulo, and its a very interesting discussion. I do believe from the hundreds of people I've spoken to over the years at the museum and from the many books I've read that the people of that generation wanted Germany to get it back ten fold. This is the distinct impression I have got to this day, I've even had visitors from the East end who have refused to join a tour which included German tourists.

The thing is that a lot of people did/ do not make any distinction when it came to total Warfare, SS,Civilians,Luftwaffe,Gestapo they were all ' filth to be eradicated' ( words actually used to me by a an elderly British lady again from the East end). The trouble is mate that if one single person loses a much loved family member they would not and probably never would care if every single German civilian died in an air raid, I'm sure many Germans felt the same about us.

The trouble is Paulo that the Germans did themselves no favours. Their Subs killed children being evacuated, their Soldiers murdered captured prisoners and even their ' Knights of the air' that some people seem to admire so much did things like this;

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...twaffe-massacred-38-pupils-London-school.html

This was not War, but the deliberate murder of children.It gave lie to the myth that German airman were all some sort of Chivalrous Knights of the air, this was not a mistake, the pilot waved at children before murdering them. Now not only did this have no effect on the War situation but it merely created even more hatred for the German's as a whole. As you say the call for retribution was so huge it could not be ignored. I think we should be careful not to gloss over the German peoples part in all this, yes there was of course somewhat of a crowd mentality, but be in no doubt they were rejoicing when the East end/Docks was ablaze , no one was urging restraint, no one cared, they has to be an element as Mitch has said that they never in a million years believed that the RAF/USAAF would in a few short years be visiting Hell on earth upon them.

You also have to question the type of people we are talking about here, I may be wrong of course, but I've never heard of British or American people singing 'Bombs on Germany' as their cities burned.

However, having said all that Paulo I fully agree all air raid deaths of civilians was another horrible part of this War, I'm not an ogre mate, I do feel sorrow for all those killed in Germany, its just I personally felt it had to be done. And that of course is a question that will rage down the ages.

One final point. Its as you say true in that not all Brits felt that way and here is a clear example. On the BBC the other week was an extended interview with an ex British para who was captured at Arnhem. He was put to work on various farms and factories and was sentenced to death for sabotaging (with his friend) a concrete mixing machine (if memory serves). He was in Dresden awaiting execution when the raids happened. His experiences were so moving I had to pull over , stop the car and listen. He described how when his building was blown apart himself and friends were able to escape into the inferno with absolutely no where to go. He watched as people quite simply ignited in front of him from the sheer temprature, men women and children all simply went up in flames in front of him. He called it a War crime and to this day thinks of all those Germans who were in effect baked alive in the brick air raid shelters they had built. He suffers nightmares to this day, has never been able to hold a relationship together and to this day distrusts all authority.

Paulo mate, it was a terrible terrible War as you said. I can only say thank God we won and thank god for all those who won it for us.

Rob

Hi Rob,
Thanks for sharing those stories, very interesting. Also I've just read the story you brought up, many thanks for the link. Really horrible. Unfortunately the way the story is told isn't exactly vintage Beevor or Gilbert^&grin:
''Meanwhile, in the playground, a little girl aged around seven skipped merrily by herself. When she heard the roar of an engine overhead, she stopped and waved, assuming the swooping plane was an RAF bomber.
The pilot waved back and she turned her sweet little face upwards in a smile.
She probably never had time to spot the swastikas under the wing, before German pilot Hauptmann Heinz Schumann sliced her down with a round of machine-gun fire.''

and
''pressed the bomb release on his Fokker-Wolf''. Fokker Wolf?..^&grin^&grin^&grin

The victims really don't need this kind of tabloid fast seller crap I guess{sm4}...

Now more seriously, when I was at the Imperial War Museum I found the Holocaust section very moving and sobering, that famous photo of the SS soldier ready to shoot the Jewish child point blank, pistol aimed at his head, the child's eyes wide open waiting for that bullet. Now just imagine seeing that live... Unforgivable, unexplainable, can't find the right words...

Paulo

 

[Mitch]

Viriato...

I think you could drive yourself mad trying to work out why some people can kill or, enjoy killing. I don't sit thinking how could they do this as, whether we like it or not, we are all capable of doing extraordinarily nasty things, we just have to be in the position with all the elements right and, then, who knows.

In relation to the jews etc the german had been bombarded with the ideology that the jew was trouble and was destroying german life from within. Real events like the depression and the problems from the end of the first world war, were totally aligned with the jew at the heart of the problem.

So, its perfectly acceptable to introduce the Nuremburg laws, to have purges to burn literature and beat people and imprison them and finally kill them with ease as they are the enemy of your country.

This question of how could they do that has troubled jews, scholars, historians as they all want to say these people were evil to ease themselves when, in fact, its been shown time and time again they were ordinary men and women just like you or I.

I remember reading the trial transcripts and other bits and bobs where Hoess (commandant of Auschwitz) would not allow the guards to abuse the prisoners he was there to kill them not torment them. He was asked did he not care he was killing men women and children and why he thought it was not wrong. His reply '' does a rat catcher think its wrong to kill rats'' That just shows the everyday way people can do horrible things and, seemingly not care and, how some cannot understand.

Children were killed deliberately and Himmler rallied his men under the notion that to not kill the youth leaves a dangerous threat from the future being allowed to festor so, killing the youth, was seen as an end to future problems for the german race.

Its not just nazi germany we have had genocide after genocide since and the same questions are asked about how people can do this type of act.

I read the SS at Treblinka which, is a good example of how a few men can murder 850,000 people and live with their families normally.
Mitch

 

[Rob]

I think we have to be very very careful before we start suggesting that 'elements' can explain some of the truly evil acts carried out by these people. Thing is Mitch if we follow this line its just one step away from saying we are all the same as the Nazi's and we are all capable of doing such things, and I'm sorry but I just don't believe this. There has to be a LARGE part of the persons will to want to carry out such acts.That piece of filth who dropped the bomb on the school and machine gunned the children was an adult, skilled flyer in a highly sophisticated piece of machinery hundreds of miles from Nazi Germany, he had the choice. He did not have kill them but chose to and did it with a smile, every person is still a person who has a choice. The Nazi Doctor who experimented on concious children knew what he was doing, I don't believe he was under huge pressure to pump petrol into their veins, fact is he enjoyed and i think we all know that.

Its this god awful trend( not aimed at you Mitch but certain Historians) of watering down, muddying the waters etc and trying to downplay just how sick these b****** were, does anyone here really believe Heydrich didn't enjoy every minute of his job, revelled in the power of life and death and happily sent people to their deaths???.

If you handcuffed me and beat me with great big sticks you could eventually possibly possibly get me to admit that Luftwaffe bomber pilots were doing their duty:wink2:.But those who invented the Holocaust and other types of murder and torture no doubt love their task. Is it not the truth that some people in the Nazi Hierarchy were against such things as the Holocaust, I suggest that this suggest that not all Germans were forced by outside elements to do these things but had the guts to resist, it also suggests that the others were deranged and or evil.

Rommel is a good example. Germany's greatest general, couldn't get more high profile, a dedicated German who despised what was going on, German he may have been but standards he had.

I get exactly what you mean about what an interesting question this is and that there is no doubt about the mob mentality that existed in the rise of Hitler, but even if we forgive the thuggery that was associated with it this is a world away from the depraved evil acts committed by the Nazi elite, we must NEVER forget this. I do also agree that it wasn't just the Nazi's that have done terrible things, what some of our own people did during the Mau Mau uprising in the fifties, though not in the Nazi's league, was truly appalling.

Just my view of course Mitch and this is a very interesting topic, although I still voted for Haig^&grin:wink2:

Rob

 

[VIRIATO]

I think Mitch has a point, under the right circumstances apparently ordinary people can be brainwashed or manipulated by just a few to do unthinkable things. An under the right circumstances ordinary people reach the breaking point that makes them do those things. But of course this doesn't make them innocent, guilty they were, more or less guilty but guilty, and as Rob said there were those that would resist these things, like Rommel and others. But they did pay with their lives didn't they? As we all know there was a difference between the SS and the Wehrmacht when it came to this, which doesn't mean the ordinary military didn't have a lot of guilt on their shoulders too...
I am glad some of these people were tried and I am even glad some of them where hunted down and killed even if without trial. They all deserved it in the end.

Paulo

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

Thats just the point I was making. I think when CC could not understand what I was saying about Eichmann these german officers and troops were just that normal people with (outside their work) extraordinarily normal lives. I have read quite a lot about the camp guards and officers and other stuff and, in the majority of cases they clocked off from their shift and went home to wives and girlfriends. We all have the propensity to do immoral, illegal, or evil acts I just think if the circumstances are right it can happen to anyone.

Its not the same scale but, many of these people who seem to go off the rails and gun down people are normal people often. How many times do the news have neighbours or friends interviewed saying they were nice people or would never have expected it??? Lots.

What I have found down the years is that one common denominator is the absolute mindset of the german to obey their seniors and superiors. It was formulated in the home with the parents and, then school church and when Hitler came into power him and the commanders of the armed forces. What we forget or do not appreciate or sometimes choose to forget is that thats what you did in germany at that time you obay.

The oaths the germans swore were almost real and, speaking with many veterans they still to this day hold (those alive I have spoken with) loyal to the oath they swore.

I don't think there is any watering down Rob its easy to see all the images and evidence at the trials that were undertaken shortly after the war but, the truth of the matter is that these people do not have horns and hooved feet they are just normal people who have done extraordinary acts.

I always point when we look at things like this that we need to take into the matter the times they were perpetrated in and, this is very much one of them. Do you think a man wanting to come into power today could offer someone work and bread and be elected?? No but, in Germany in the 30's that won elections and support. The belief in the german mind of jewish conspiracy was a great determining factor in the way events were shaped against the jews. Is that logical no but, it was very logical in those days and, the people or, a substantial amount went along with that thought.

What they did was wrong without doubt but, to say they were evil. perverted demonic is wrong they were not. Thats not to say some were and took pleasure in their role and wanted to go the extra mile there was. Look at how the germans even exagerrated the numbers killed to please their superiors but, then one can equally say that to any regime in history where genocide or ethnic cleansing has taken place.

If we go down the road of saying they were all evil etc then we have many millions of people who were covered under this banner. Hitler and the SS could not have done what they did without the absolute assistance from the Heer and they got it, the role they played including assisting the einsatzgruppen was huge. Again, we have to look at the times and regime.

I agree not everyone was on the side of the Nazi's but, taking Rommel as a prime example of internal resistance may not be the example I would use. Many other officers were against from the start and acted so but, for me, Rommel was pulled towards that way of thinking after the Afrika Korps were left to their fate before that he was rather avid defender of Hitler and I think from reading that he was still torn with that thought when he allied himself with the July plot.
Mitch

 

[Rob]

Rob...

Thats just the point I was making. I think when CC could not understand what I was saying about Eichmann these german officers and troops were just that normal people with (outside their work) extraordinarily normal lives. I have read quite a lot about the camp guards and officers and other stuff and, in the majority of cases they clocked off from their shift and went home to wives and girlfriends. We all have the propensity to do immoral, illegal, or evil acts I just think if the circumstances are right it can happen to anyone.

Its not the same scale but, many of these people who seem to go off the rails and gun down people are normal people often. How many times do the news have neighbours or friends interviewed saying they were nice people or would never have expected it??? Lots.

What I have found down the years is that one common denominator is the absolute mindset of the german to obey their seniors and superiors. It was formulated in the home with the parents and, then school church and when Hitler came into power him and the commanders of the armed forces. What we forget or do not appreciate or sometimes choose to forget is that thats what you did in germany at that time you obay.

The oaths the germans swore were almost real and, speaking with many veterans they still to this day hold (those alive I have spoken with) loyal to the oath they swore.

I don't think there is any watering down Rob its easy to see all the images and evidence at the trials that were undertaken shortly after the war but, the truth of the matter is that these people do not have horns and hooved feet they are just normal people who have done extraordinary acts.

I always point when we look at things like this that we need to take into the matter the times they were perpetrated in and, this is very much one of them. Do you think a man wanting to come into power today could offer someone work and bread and be elected?? No but, in Germany in the 30's that won elections and support. The belief in the german mind of jewish conspiracy was a great determining factor in the way events were shaped against the jews. Is that logical no but, it was very logical in those days and, the people or, a substantial amount went along with that thought.

What they did was wrong without doubt but, to say they were evil. perverted demonic is wrong they were not. Thats not to say some were and took pleasure in their role and wanted to go the extra mile there was. Look at how the germans even exagerrated the numbers killed to please their superiors but, then one can equally say that to any regime in history where genocide or ethnic cleansing has taken place.

If we go down the road of saying they were all evil etc then we have many millions of people who were covered under this banner. Hitler and the SS could not have done what they did without the absolute assistance from the Heer and they got it, the role they played including assisting the einsatzgruppen was huge. Again, we have to look at the times and regime.

I agree not everyone was on the side of the Nazi's but, taking Rommel as a prime example of internal resistance may not be the example I would use. Many other officers were against from the start and acted so but, for me, Rommel was pulled towards that way of thinking after the Afrika Korps were left to their fate before that he was rather avid defender of Hitler and I think from reading that he was still torn with that thought when he allied himself with the July plot.
Mitch

Very interesting points Mitch, although I may not agree with all of them as I do believe many in the Hierarchy were evil and some perverted, I take your point that Hans your average camp guard went Home to his dinner after just another day. Some of the Hut commandants were of course total B*****s and were murdered for it either by prisoners themselves or liberating troops on liberation. The torture and humiliation of camp prisoners does I'm afraid suggest pure evil amongst those who carried it out as there is little point in doing it for any other reason than perverted pleasure, they were all going to die anyway.

But I have to disagree with you re the FW190 pilot. That was an act of pure evil and intent. If you read the article Mitch, he first waved at the children, came back and machine gunned them. Now this pilot had a plethora of targets in London, railway stations, underground entrances every other street, bridges, Gas Works etc, I'm sorry but I do not beilieve he was some sort of brainwashed automaton told to go to England to kill children. This pilot decide quite on purpose to murder children in his sights, he knew exactly what he was doing and did it.

As for Rommel I wasn't suggesting he was a figure of resistance at all, I meant he deplored the camps as a professional Soldier. I didn't think he was actually active in the July plot, but was forced to commit suicide for knowing about it and not passing it on?.

I do not believe that we can pass off the actions of many in that regime as either being so brainwashed they didn't know what they were doing or that circumstances forced them to act that way, evil was present in that system.

However I do of course not believe all German Soldiers,Sailors or airmen were evil as that would be absurd, stupid yes, on the wrong side yes, gulible in the extreme but not evil. Many Germans did think they were fighting for the right side and for their country and they cannot be blamed for that. And let us also remember the many Germans who were against Hitler whether overtly or covertly, we must remember that we did them a huge favour when liberating Germany

We can disagree about the FW pilot because thats what freedom is about, fortunately they got him a few weeks later, and Mitch, I hope he suffered bad.

Cheers

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

Rob...

Thats just the point I was making. I think when CC could not understand what I was saying about Eichmann these german officers and troops were just that normal people with (outside their work) extraordinarily normal lives.

How many times do the news have neighbours or friends interviewed saying they were nice people or would never have expected it??? Lots.

What I have found down the years is that one common denominator is the absolute mindset of the german to obey their seniors and superiors. It was formulated in the home with the parents and, then school church and when Hitler came into power him and the commanders of the armed forces. What we forget or do not appreciate or sometimes choose to forget is that thats what you did in germany at that time you obay.


...the truth of the matter is that these people do not have horns and hooved feet they are just normal people who have done extraordinary acts.

Do you think a man wanting to come into power today could offer someone work and bread and be elected??

What they did was wrong without doubt but, to say they were evil. perverted demonic is wrong they were not.

Hey Mitch

For the record, CC still does not comprehend your viewpoint but I fully respect your right to offer it To me, an ordinary life is getting up, going to the gym, going to an office and doing something somewhat productive, go home and eat and play with kids. No where along my daily routine- or gazillions other like me am I gassing or otherwise tormenting innocents. I'm simply going along my daily and dull routine. If ever asked to gas someone, I would politely refuse on moral grounds.

Next point (as I have yours broken out above), what neighborhood do you live near mate?? ^&grin

I do fully agree with your third position above- but I offer that was the cultural differences betwen Germans and Japanese versus Americans, Britons and Aussies. At the end of the day, if the Nazis weren't evil then why not just deport the Jews and be done with it? Why go to such ruthless efficiency to slaughter them??

Point 4- yes, they had hoofed feet and horns and terrified the sleepless nights of many generations of people who had to deal with them well beyond 1945.

Point 5- why yes, in my Country, where 1:10 able working Americans is unemployed bread and water- as illustrative as security, could very well win the 2012 election.

Point 6- I will philosophize to a degree here- if we fail to ever identify evil and call evil, EVIL, trying to understand the rationality behind EVil, then how will we ever have the good sense to know when we are staring evil in the face? How will we ever know when to say "hey man, that's wrong." That's part of the problem with over thinking things- why do nations go to war? why are the Germans demonized? etc etc. How many times was Mr. Chamberlain crucified by historians for not recognizing the EVil that was Hitler and the nazis? Simple fact was, evil in the sense of the nazis hadn't existed at that point so he and many others didn't know how to call evil, evil when it was staring him in the face. Now, unfortunately, we have experienced the Nazi and Imperial Japanese regimes and we have learned how to call evil- EVIL. A globally painful lesson that I am afraid we will forget sometime in the future (if we haven't already).

Cheers
CC

 

[uksubs]

viriato...


My sympathies go for the 55,000 crews who did not come home defending our country from the other little corporal (there is a trend there isn't there little corporals)
Mitch

well said that man {bravo}}

 

[Mitch]

Chris...

my point has always been that these individuals were not monsters with horns etc they did acts that many cannot comprehend but, throughout history dispicable and crual things have happened that we look at and think how did that happen. This does not mean that the people who commited them were evil

I think the point I am making is being missed take the germans as they are being mentioned many were well educated, cultured men who undertook the organisation and physical acts against the jews etc but, far from coming from a background where they abused murdered etc folk in their own country they put on a uniform and did what they were told. Hoess was in charge of killing women and children but, went home and played with his kids and loved his wife how can we say that this man was evil when he would not harm his own children There must be something more??

The important point is why they did what they did and, it has been stated quite easily that we blame it on evil etc but, for me, thats to simplistic an explanation this could be used had it say been a few but, we are talking many thousands hundereds perhaps who were involved in the destruction of the jews the gypsies mentally and physically ill. They all were not evil they ran with a cultural phenomenon which demanded blind obediance and, were taught from an early age that the jews were dispicable and were their country's worst enemy.

The manner in which the jew or gypsy etc were dehumanised in the german way of life made it easy for the guards that rob mentions to treat prisoners etc in the manner they did they were sub human to the aryan veiw of being the master race and that allied to the points above makes it easy for people to do such acts and thats why I believe they were on the whole normal people.

Look at the recent torture case in the UK and US from soldiers guarding Iraqi and afghan prisoners. Are these men and women evil?? they committed horrendous acts against these POW but, I don't see them as evil just caught up in situation where it was easy to see the enemy as less than human. I wonder where these acts would have ended had they not come to light.

Normal people doing extraordinary acts in extraordinary circumstances. Thats why I said who knows what one can do unless we are placed into these situations. Some may not act immorally or evil as some like to tag it but, some do

Look at some of the psychological experiments that have taken place where normal people are told to do rather nasty things to people and willingly do it as they are told by a person in charge they should.

I think the events we are now discussing and others are so horredous that its easier for some as an understanding and explanation of when people do such acts or kill kids etc is to revert to the they are evil but, my stance is just that having read about them its too simplistic to say the evidence and much has come from jewish writers that this is not the case. Whether it be german Russian african bosnian or serb they do evil acts but, are not evil per se.

Rob....

Did not mention the Luftwaffe pilot in the discussion so we cannot disagree about that. some folks just seem to love killing people no matter who they are in war or peace time
Mitch

 

[Rob]

Chris...

my point has always been that these individuals were not monsters with horns etc they did acts that many cannot comprehend but, throughout history dispicable and crual things have happened that we look at and think how did that happen. This does not mean that the people who commited them were evil

I think the point I am making is being missed take the germans as they are being mentioned many were well educated, cultured men who undertook the organisation and physical acts against the jews etc but, far from coming from a background where they abused murdered etc folk in their own country they put on a uniform and did what they were told.

The important point is why they did what they did and, it has been stated quite easily that we blame it on evil etc but, for me, thats to simplistic an explanation this could be used had it say been a few but, we are talking many thousands hundereds perhaps who were involved in the destruction of the jews the gypsies mentally and physically ill. They all were not evil they ran with a cultural phenomenon which demanded blind obediance and, were taught from an early age that the jews were dispicable and were their country's worst enemy.

The manner in which the jew or gypsy etc were dehumanised in the german way of life made it easy for the guards that rob mentions to treat prisoners etc in the manner they did they were sub human to the aryan veiw of being the master race and that allied to the points above makes it easy for people to do such acts and thats why I believe they were on the whole normal people.

Look at the recent torture case in the UK and US from soldiers guarding Iraqi and afghan prisoners. Are these men and women evil?? they committed horrendous acts against these POW but, I don't see them as evil just caught up in situation where it was easy to see the enemy as less than human. I wonder where these acts would have ended had they not come to light.

Normal people doing extraordinary acts in extraordinary circumstances. Thats why I said who knows what one can do unless we are placed into these situations. Some may not act immorally or evil as some like to tag it but, some do

Look at some of the psychological experiments that have taken place where normal people are told to do rather nasty things to people and willingly do it as they are told by a person in charge they should.

I think the events we are now discussing and others are so horredous that its easier for some as an understanding and explanation of when people do such acts or kill kids etc is to revert to the they are evil but, my stance is just that having read about them its too simplistic to say the evidence and much has come from jewish writers that this is not the case. Whether it be german Russian african bosnian or serb they do evil acts but, are not evil per se for me.

Rob....

Did not mention the Luftwaffe pilot in the discussion so we cannot disagree about that. some folks just seem to love killing people no matter who they are
Mitch

My apologies Mitch, I thought I'd read a comment from you re killing children and thought you were talking about the school. You are of course spot on re some people just enjoy killing. Have just this week been appalled by the events in Long Island New York where they have so far found the bodies of eight young women along one stretch of Highway, truly awful. I've noticed the residents always say the same thing ' That sort of thing doesn't happen around here' where on earth does it happen?!{eek3}

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

Look at the recent torture case in the UK and US from soldiers guarding Iraqi and afghan prisoners. Are these men and women evil?? they committed horrendous acts against these POW but, I don't see them as evil just caught up in situation where it was easy to see the enemy as less than human. I wonder where these acts would have ended had they not come to light.

All apologies as I know I am taking this thread off topic so I will let this beaten horse trod off to the sunset and Mitch, Rob and I and whomever can continue this via pm.

BUT- I find those actions in Abu Gharaib as despicable as anything done by the nazis- they were a disgrace to my uniform and my country and should've been strung up and shot. Not only do their actions undermine the image of my nation, it also makes the sacrifices of the heroes who died to achieve my nation's aims over the years leading up to that in vain. To me, the CLEAR cut difference here is that the treatment in Abu Gharaib was in no means official US policy. Extermination of jews and others was official Nazi doctrine. As you readily admitted, some people just kill and I think we both agree they are outliers to the dilemma.

Again, I think your position is somewhat of an enigma wrapped in a mystery given some of the statements you have made regarding the nazis and then other polarized views against seemingly less aggregious claims against thievery...{sm4}{sm4}{sm4}

Wasn't Queen Elizabeth ( I hope I got her right- all apologies if I have the wrong Queen here), pretty much distrustful of the Nazis?? (Not sure where i am going with that :redface2:{sm4}).

I dunno bud, I am a bit simple in my views. I certainly understand what you are saying and your point, I just think if we fail to call evil, evil, then we forgot all those hard learned lessons from the 1940's.

All this talk of Evil has me jonesing to watch some Austin Powers flicks {sm4}

 

[Rob]

My apologies if my posts have sidetracked thread, been really interesting talkng about it with you guys though. I will now get it back on track.

I couldn't believe it, my friend Louis just pm'd me and said he'd voted for HAIG!!!{eek3}{eek3}{eek3}{eek3}{eek3}

Ok, he might not have, but it made you look didn't it:wink2:

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Rob..

No probs. There are so many topics ongoing in this thread my heads spinning. Its a good thread though.
Mitch