Britain's Greatest General - National Army Museum (2 Viewers)

[Mitch]

Right back to WW1 !!!

Rob your right that the after events played no relevance to what happened on the battle field. Its been mentioned that the tactics deployed were poor and that the germans adopted shock troops but, this tactic adopted on the russian front worked well there but, was much less effective on the western front.

Mass bombardments were used but, accuracy etc were poor and this form of warfare was in its infancy as was the aid of the aircraft. I think its difficult to see what else could have been done in the circumstances by any commander??
Would make a interesting topic for discussion the treaty of Versailles and its effect
Mitch

 

[johnnybach]

I've changed my mind - my vote goes to Spitfrnd's choice. Is that a Welsh tartan - perchance? Looks a rather "Ancient Britain" type. :salute::johnnybach

 

[lancer]

Right back to WW1 !!!

Rob your right that the after events played no relevance to what happened on the battle field. Its been mentioned that the tactics deployed were poor and that the germans adopted shock troops but, this tactic adopted on the russian front worked well there but, was much less effective on the western front.

Mass bombardments were used but, accuracy etc were poor and this form of warfare was in its infancy as was the aid of the aircraft. I think its difficult to see what else could have been done in the circumstances by any commander??
Would make a interesting topic for discussion the treaty of Versailles and its effect
Mitch

Very true. If viable options had been available, the generals would have used them. No general wants his troops slaughtered. It was just the curse of WW1 that the weapons, in particular the machine gun, made all prior experience at war obsolete. The generals had been groomed on smaller wars with different tactics. WW1 was war on a new, massive scale, where prior rules, tactics, and ones knowledge of war was all but useless. It all had to learned again and the weapons just punished everyone while the lessons were learned. -- Al

 

[lancer]

Al..

Currently...

Haig 1,572
Will Slim 1,35
Wellington 441
Marlborough 439
Cromwell 437
Wolfe 417
Monty 356

Mitch

Hey Mitch, what's the latest count? This one is a week old, plenty of time for Slim to come back or Haig to seal the deal. ^&grin -- Al

 

[Mitch]

As of today the figures in the Poll
Mitch


Leaderboard
Name Votes
Douglas Haig
2,204
William Slim
1,760
The Duke of Marlborough
696
Oliver Cromwell
692
The Duke of Wellington
683
James Wolfe
519
Bernard Law Montgomery
449
Herbert Kitchener
430
Edmund Allenby
256
Claude Auchinleck
244
Frederick Roberts
206
Thomas Fairfax
192
John Moore
164
Archibald Wavell
161
Jan Smuts
79
Robert Clive
69
Colin Campbell
68
Garnet Wolseley
47
Gerald Templer
44
Robert Sale
35

 

[lancer]

Many thanks for the info, Mitch. Haig is actually pulling away from the pack. I do not disagree with this but, as I mentioned before, it does rather surprise me. Just on the fact that WW2 was more recent, within living memory, I would have thought Slim or Montgomery would be leading, while also figuring that any history buffs would be pulling for Wellington. Kind of neat to see Haig leading. -- Al

 

[Rob]

Many thanks for the info, Mitch. Haig is actually pulling away from the pack. I do not disagree with this but, as I mentioned before, it does rather surprise me. Just on the fact that WW2 was more recent, within living memory, I would have thought Slim or Montgomery would be leading, while also figuring that any history buffs would be pulling for Wellington. Kind of neat to see Haig leading. -- Al

Yes, I've been surprised that Monty or Wellington were not top, as you say Haig pulling away now.

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

Yes, I've been surprised that Monty or Wellington were not top, as you say Haig pulling away now.

Rob

I agree Rob- that one is a puzzler for sure.

 

[Mitch]

Have to say that I am only surprised at the position of Monty not Haig would have thought it may have been closer but, I think it shows what people who are voting feel about what Haig did in service to his country not all the 20/20 examination 90 years after.
Mitch

 

[Rob]

Have to say that I am only surprised at the position of Monty not Haig would have thought it may have been closer but, I think it shows what people who are voting feel about what Haig did in service to his country not all the 20/20 examination 90 years after.
Mitch

Funny because after the 'Donkeys' book and 'Blackadder' Haig was firmly disliked and belittled wasn't he (although not by WW1 vets themselves) but opinions have really swung the other way in the last decade, whether we are for or against, its very hard to put yourself in the shoes of a man upon whose shoulders so much pressure, expectation and hope rested. Glad it wasn't me!.

Rob

 

[lancer]

Have to say that I am only surprised at the position of Monty not Haig would have thought it may have been closer but, I think it shows what people who are voting feel about what Haig did in service to his country not all the 20/20 examination 90 years after.
Mitch

Good point. Still think Haig has been unfairly pilloried for his generalship. Don't believe anyone else available could have done the job he did in leadership he did. The circumstances of the war made it all but impossible for any general to shine, especially the overall commander. Haig stood up to the incredible pressure without cracking under the strain or shirking his duty. As has been said elsewhere in this thread, it is not the men he lead that criticize him, but the writer historians, with 20/20 hindsight, that crucify him. Haig did his duty, took the criticism from politicians in silence and led his country to victory. Was he a military genius? No, but he was a solid professional with great character. I still don't know of anyone that might have done a better job under the circumstances. Glad his reputation has been rebuilt. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

Rob/Al...

I agree I think he has been pilloried and unfairly as I have defended him in a couple of the threads about this point. Blackadder was ok however, it was rather taken too seriously and rammed down the publics throats as if it were fact.

Historians love to court controversy as it enhances their reputations but, IMO far too many take the easy option of looking at the man and his actions in isolation to all the other very important issues.

I hope it is a sign of rationalisation and acceptance of some of the points AL raises instead of screaming murder and saying how easy it would have been to do this or that.
Mitch

 

[Currahee Chris]

.....I still don't know of anyone that might have done a better job under the circumstances.

you mean you don't know of anyone in an English Army uniform that might have done a better job right???

let the fireworks fly. ^&grin:tongue:^&grin (just kidding chaps still trying to subtly get this thing shut down ^&grin).

 

[Rob]

Rob/Al...

I agree I think he has been pilloried and unfairly as I have defended him in a couple of the threads about this point. Blackadder was ok however, it was rather taken too seriously and rammed down the publics throats as if it were fact.

Historians love to court controversy as it enhances their reputations but, IMO far too many take the easy option of looking at the man and his actions in isolation to all the other very important issues.

I hope it is a sign of rationalisation and acceptance of some of the points AL raises instead of screaming murder and saying how easy it would have been to do this or that.
Mitch

Yes, much as I love Blackadder as a whole and a truly classic comedy, it gave a very bad impression of Haig and pretty much all senior officers that took years to reverse. The final scene in which they go over the top to meet their fate was however very moving, very poignant and very well done, quite possibly the best ending to a comedy series ever and a great tribute to all those young men who gave their lives for us.

Back to Haig, he must have been a very determined chap because he had a barely speaking terms relationship with Lloyd George the British pm, the friction, dislike and mistrust between them must have made the task in hand even more difficult.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Its one of the atributes that all military leaders must IMO have in their characters strong will etc and it was in abundance with that generation
Mitch

 

[Currahee Chris]

Rob- I just looked up BA Season 4 finale on Youtube- very well done!!

 

[Rob]

Rob- I just looked up BA Season 4 finale on Youtube- very well done!!

Isn't it just mate!. I remember the day after it was shown it was all over the news and everyone was talking about it.

To end a series full of farce, laughter, absurd characters with such a poignant tribute was genius.

Rob

 

[Gazza]

The public vote has now closed and the results are:

The five generals who will go forward to be represented at our all-day celebrity speaker event, on Saturday 9 April 2011, are:

•Douglas Haig
•William Slim
•The Duke of Marlborough
•The Duke of Wellington
•Oliver Cromwell

Interesting? Shall look forward to the event on the 9th April and seeing which celebrity speaker represents who

Gazza

 

[jazzeum]

I understand why the first four are on the list and I suppose we could disagree about that and we have but let's let that one go.

I remember reading about Cromwell years ago when I attended British school and what I remember wasn't flattering but since the mind is the first thing to go as you get older (well, maybe the second ), I couldn't exactly remember why. So, I went to the web and came up with the attached article from the BBC.

Now, I don't want to start a controversy and my apologies in advance if I do but based on this article why do you think he was chosen? I suppose I would have sooner chosen Monty.

 

[Gazza]

I understand why the first four are on the list and I suppose we could disagree about that and we have but let's let that one go.

I remember reading about Cromwell years ago when I attended British school and what I remember wasn't flattering but since the mind is the first thing to go as you get older (well, maybe the second ), I couldn't exactly remember why. So, I went to the web and came up with the attached article from the BBC.

Now, I don't want to start a controversy and my apologies in advance if I do but based on this article why do you think he was chosen? I suppose I would have sooner chosen Monty.

Brad

Cromwell, for many, will always be controversial because of the massacres in Ireland; his religious zeal and his pursuit of power.

The BBC article appears to be written more from a political perspective; not necessarily a military one.

The BBC article states ‘He was not a military innovator' however, he was instrumental in creating the New Model Army; that went onto defeat the Royalists.

The BBC article says he 'was not a brilliant tactician.’ He had no formal military training and found himself in military service, for the first time, in his 40’s. Yet despite this, his decisive actions as a cavalry commander at the Battle’s of Marston Moor and Naseby ensured victory.

When he finally took overall command of the New Model Army, he achieved some spectacular successes against the Royalists and their Irish or Scottish Allies (Battles of Preston, Dunbar, Worcester and Rathmines). A number of these victories were achieved against vastly superior forces.

However, again it is the Irish legacy that probably makes him such a divisive character.

Interestingly, he was voted the 10th Greatest Britain in a BBC poll in 2002.

Gazza