damian
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British Army Cuts (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter damian
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Napoleon1er
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It will end when they give Queen Lizzy a sword and sack the whole armed forces.
Mitch
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sadly tradition and honour have no place in ministers minds saving money at the expense of everything important is priority number one. You only have to look back when we were not in such a financial mess to see how Blair sold away some of the Scottish Regiments.
I like the mentality that reducing the numbers will make the army more agile???? Stretched to breaking point now obviously reducing numbers will help.
Mental midgets one and all
Mitch
I like the mentality that reducing the numbers will make the army more agile???? Stretched to breaking point now obviously reducing numbers will help.
Mental midgets one and all
Mitch
larso
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The way politicians use language has devalued the meaning of words. It's almost an insult to your intelligence. The incredible thing is that while the cuts are being made, they need to still recruit 10,000 new personel each year! My own experience with the Australian Army Reserve is that in the modern age it's money poorly spent. Yes, a reservist is cheaper but their capabilities are so much less.
T
TomB
Guest
A reservist may be cheap.....and the training through lack of euipt ,etc may not be 100%..but..the reservist played a major part in the defense of New Guinea in WW11.......good on the Weekend Warriors.....TomB
larso
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"A reservist may be cheap.....and the training through lack of euipt ,etc may not be 100%..but..the reservist played a major part in the defense of New Guinea in WW11.......good on the Weekend Warriors....."TomB
There's truth in that Tom but they had been full-time (mostly) for a while leading up to those events. Infortunately this didn't involve much training. Most of the militia were used as dock-side labour and some had never used the weapons they were later given for their babtism of fire. The army had intended for the AIF to do all the fighting and got caught out. It was a scandal how poorly the militia were treated and it was awe-inspiring what they acheived despite it.
There's truth in that Tom but they had been full-time (mostly) for a while leading up to those events. Infortunately this didn't involve much training. Most of the militia were used as dock-side labour and some had never used the weapons they were later given for their babtism of fire. The army had intended for the AIF to do all the fighting and got caught out. It was a scandal how poorly the militia were treated and it was awe-inspiring what they acheived despite it.
T
TomB
Guest
Did not know that...thanks for the info...never the less ...they did their job regardless of how badly they were treated.....we need the "Weekend Warriors" regardless of the jokes we may make about them..pity we have such a DH govt who has not got any vison or guts....and have no interest in defence what so ever ....Asia is sitting on our doorstep and we have a defence force...compared in number's ....a platoon against an Army Corp..... some people may not like the Yanks...but ...they are the only derterrent we have....IMO......TomB
larso
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Back to the issue of Reserves, from memory, my old unit (2/14LH, about 15 years ago) was slated to be ready for deployment 180 days after call-up. I gather this would mean the unit fleshed out to full strength (3 full sabre squadrons, up from 2 partial ones) and intense training to bring it up to standard with the regular army. The Ready Reserve might've been on 90 day notice? In either case they are not much use if they are required tomorrow. I do recall hearing the view that most Reserve units would only be fit for guard or occupation type duties. While my squadron was quite good for the first few years I was in, it declined markedly in terms of capability (experienced/effective men, numbers) after that.
I'm curious about the situation in Britain?
I'm curious about the situation in Britain?
T
TomB
Guest
Lets hope the Brits do it better.....talking about approx 15 yrs ago...a reservists...pinched an APC and was driving around the city of Perth late at night...I was on shift work and was stopped at a road block by the coppers on my way to work .....I suggested a couple of petrol bombs but they were not impressed.....anyway the incident ended without drama.....never did get the full story...bet the poor bugger had to put his own petrol into the APC......cheers TomB
larso
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Ok, this appears to be the relevant news release that underpins the thread topic.
Army 2020 announcement confirms Army to be reduced by 23 units
The Army is to be reduced by 23 Regular units since the Strategic Defence and Security Review as part of Army 2020. The changes are due to be implemented by 2015, with the overall mandate to reach the capacity of 82,000 for the Regular Army and 30,000 for the Reserves by 2018.
The announcement came today in the House of Commons by Secretary of State for Defence the Rt Hon Philip Hammond MP after months of work by the Army to create a modern force for the challenges of 2020 and beyond.
The changes to the Order of Battle (ORBAT) will include:
Household Cavalry and Royal Armoured Corps
• The Queens Royal Lancers will amalgamate with 9th/12th Royal Lancers (Prince of Wales's) upon completion of scheduled operational commitments and not before October 2014.
• The 1st Royal Tank Regiment and the 2nd Royal Tank Regiment will merge upon completion of scheduled operational commitments and not before April 2014.
Royal Regiment of Artillery
• 39 Regiment Royal Artillery and 40 Regiment Royal Artillery will both be removed from the ORBAT by October 2015.
Corps of Royal Engineers
• 24 Commando Engineer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before April 2013.
• 25 Engineer Regiment and 28 Engineer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before October 2015.
• 38 Engineer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT.
• 67 Works Group will also be removed from the ORBAT not before April 2015.
Royal Corps of Signals
• 7th Signal Regiment (Allied Rapid Reaction Corps) is to be removed from the ORBAT.
Infantry
• 5th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland (The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders,) will be reduced to form a Public Duties Incremental Company on completion of current task and not before August 2013.
• 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers upon completion of scheduled operational commitments in the autumn of 2014.
• The 2nd Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment (Green Howard's) will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Yorkshire Regiment on completion of their Cyprus tour and not before the autumn of 2013.
• The 3rd Battalion the Mercian Regiment (Staffordshire) will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Mercian Regiment on completion of Op HERRICK 19 and not before October 2014.
• 2nd Battalion the Royal Welsh (The Royal Regiment of Wales) will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Royal Welsh not before autumn 2013.
• 1st Battalion the Royal Irish Regiment will join the Prince of Wales’ Division.
Army Air Corps
• 1 Regiment Army Air Corps will merge with 9 Regiment Army Air Corps, bringing the Wildcat force under a single HQ based at Yeovilton not before October 2015.
Royal Logistic Corps (RLC)
• 1 Logistic Support Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before April 2015.
• 2 Logistic Support Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before October 2014.
• 23 Pioneer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before October 2015.
• 8 Regiment, 19 Combat Service Support Battalion and 24 Regiment RLC will be removed from the ORBAT.
Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineer
• 101 Force Support Battalion will be removed from the Regular Army ORBAT not before autumn 2015, and will transfer to the Reserve.
Royal Military Police unit
• 5 Regiment Royal Military Police is to be removed from the ORBAT as part of the drawdown from Germany. The three remaining Regiments will be re-organised.
• All SIB capabilities will be reorganised under one headquarters, while the Military Provost Service will be increased, and a specialist Support Operations group will be created.
The Royal Gurkha Rifles are to remain with two Battalions to sustain their capability and meet their unique operational requirement in Brunei.
The current Regular and Reserve structure for the Army Medical Services will remain largely unchanged with three Regular and ten Reserve field hospitals.
The Intelligence Corps will retain three Regular military intelligence battalions.
Sustaining cap badges
Addressing questions about specific unit reductions, Chief of the General Staff (CGS) General Sir Peter Wall KCB CBE ADC Gen, said the units to be lost from the Royal Armoured Corps were selected on the basis of armoured corps principles and to sustain as many cap badges as possible.
"We will still have three heavy armoured regiments equipped with an upgrade of Challenger 2, which will satisfy our requirements for the future. This is based on analysis that sees tanks being used less in a mass armoured role but still playing a very important role in terms of supporting the infantry."
The five Infantry Battalions were selected based on a number of factors including their ability to recruit over the last ten years, and the demographic projections about the population in their recruitment areas over the next ten years.
The six RLC units to be disbanded were selected based on future projections for logistic requirements, and were also those that provided a role that could be fulfilled by the Army Reserves and contractors.
"The RLC will still remain a critical part of the Army and one of considerable size. But we needed to find places where we can employ Reserves and contractors to alleviate some of the high costs of military manpower, and the RLC is an area where that works well," he said.
Fair distribution of resources
On the subject of the Reserves, CGS confirmed there were very few adjustments being made but until the laydown of the Regular Army is confirmed there would be no further announcements on how the Reserves would be recast to partner and complement Regular units in their areas.
"I appreciate that it is a difficult day for those people who have heard that the Regiments they have fought in are going to be amalgamated or disbanded, but in the round it is a good day for the Army as it gives us the clarity and springboard to shape the Army to confront the challenges of the future.
"This is fair to the country as it delivers the very best capabilities that we can with the resources that we have been given. It rebalances the Army to the demands of the future with a fair distribution of resources and manpower across all of the cap badges. And it is fair at the soldier level where we shall be doing our utmost to make sure that everybody gets the best chance of being re-employed in the Army.
Re-employment possibilities
CGS was keen to stress to soldiers serving with the units to be disbanded or merged that they were no more or less likely to be selected for redundancy that others with similar skills and service record.
"Your prospects of redundancy are no greater by dint of being in a Regiment that has been selected to be removed from the order of battle," he said.
When units are withdrawn, their personnel will be reassigned to other units - where possible, within the same regiment or corps.
Although the majority of the changes are due to be made between 2014 and 2016, there may be some unit reductions before 2014, dependent on force levels in Afghanistan.
Optimistic for the future
"Overall I am optimistic that this will work well and has used the best of the resources that have been afforded to us by the country.
"Army 2020 is an ambitious vision for unprecedented times. It will demand resilience, flexibility and genuine adaptability from talented and committed officers and soldiers. In return it will provide challenge and opportunity in abundance. Soldiering in this Army will continue to be an exacting and rewarding vocation," CGS concluded.
Army 2020 announcement confirms Army to be reduced by 23 units
The Army is to be reduced by 23 Regular units since the Strategic Defence and Security Review as part of Army 2020. The changes are due to be implemented by 2015, with the overall mandate to reach the capacity of 82,000 for the Regular Army and 30,000 for the Reserves by 2018.
The announcement came today in the House of Commons by Secretary of State for Defence the Rt Hon Philip Hammond MP after months of work by the Army to create a modern force for the challenges of 2020 and beyond.
The changes to the Order of Battle (ORBAT) will include:
Household Cavalry and Royal Armoured Corps
• The Queens Royal Lancers will amalgamate with 9th/12th Royal Lancers (Prince of Wales's) upon completion of scheduled operational commitments and not before October 2014.
• The 1st Royal Tank Regiment and the 2nd Royal Tank Regiment will merge upon completion of scheduled operational commitments and not before April 2014.
Royal Regiment of Artillery
• 39 Regiment Royal Artillery and 40 Regiment Royal Artillery will both be removed from the ORBAT by October 2015.
Corps of Royal Engineers
• 24 Commando Engineer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before April 2013.
• 25 Engineer Regiment and 28 Engineer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before October 2015.
• 38 Engineer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT.
• 67 Works Group will also be removed from the ORBAT not before April 2015.
Royal Corps of Signals
• 7th Signal Regiment (Allied Rapid Reaction Corps) is to be removed from the ORBAT.
Infantry
• 5th Battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland (The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders,) will be reduced to form a Public Duties Incremental Company on completion of current task and not before August 2013.
• 2nd Battalion the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Royal Regiment of Fusiliers upon completion of scheduled operational commitments in the autumn of 2014.
• The 2nd Battalion the Yorkshire Regiment (Green Howard's) will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Yorkshire Regiment on completion of their Cyprus tour and not before the autumn of 2013.
• The 3rd Battalion the Mercian Regiment (Staffordshire) will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Mercian Regiment on completion of Op HERRICK 19 and not before October 2014.
• 2nd Battalion the Royal Welsh (The Royal Regiment of Wales) will be removed from the ORBAT and absorbed into the rest of The Royal Welsh not before autumn 2013.
• 1st Battalion the Royal Irish Regiment will join the Prince of Wales’ Division.
Army Air Corps
• 1 Regiment Army Air Corps will merge with 9 Regiment Army Air Corps, bringing the Wildcat force under a single HQ based at Yeovilton not before October 2015.
Royal Logistic Corps (RLC)
• 1 Logistic Support Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before April 2015.
• 2 Logistic Support Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before October 2014.
• 23 Pioneer Regiment will be removed from the ORBAT not before October 2015.
• 8 Regiment, 19 Combat Service Support Battalion and 24 Regiment RLC will be removed from the ORBAT.
Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineer
• 101 Force Support Battalion will be removed from the Regular Army ORBAT not before autumn 2015, and will transfer to the Reserve.
Royal Military Police unit
• 5 Regiment Royal Military Police is to be removed from the ORBAT as part of the drawdown from Germany. The three remaining Regiments will be re-organised.
• All SIB capabilities will be reorganised under one headquarters, while the Military Provost Service will be increased, and a specialist Support Operations group will be created.
The Royal Gurkha Rifles are to remain with two Battalions to sustain their capability and meet their unique operational requirement in Brunei.
The current Regular and Reserve structure for the Army Medical Services will remain largely unchanged with three Regular and ten Reserve field hospitals.
The Intelligence Corps will retain three Regular military intelligence battalions.
Sustaining cap badges
Addressing questions about specific unit reductions, Chief of the General Staff (CGS) General Sir Peter Wall KCB CBE ADC Gen, said the units to be lost from the Royal Armoured Corps were selected on the basis of armoured corps principles and to sustain as many cap badges as possible.
"We will still have three heavy armoured regiments equipped with an upgrade of Challenger 2, which will satisfy our requirements for the future. This is based on analysis that sees tanks being used less in a mass armoured role but still playing a very important role in terms of supporting the infantry."
The five Infantry Battalions were selected based on a number of factors including their ability to recruit over the last ten years, and the demographic projections about the population in their recruitment areas over the next ten years.
The six RLC units to be disbanded were selected based on future projections for logistic requirements, and were also those that provided a role that could be fulfilled by the Army Reserves and contractors.
"The RLC will still remain a critical part of the Army and one of considerable size. But we needed to find places where we can employ Reserves and contractors to alleviate some of the high costs of military manpower, and the RLC is an area where that works well," he said.
Fair distribution of resources
On the subject of the Reserves, CGS confirmed there were very few adjustments being made but until the laydown of the Regular Army is confirmed there would be no further announcements on how the Reserves would be recast to partner and complement Regular units in their areas.
"I appreciate that it is a difficult day for those people who have heard that the Regiments they have fought in are going to be amalgamated or disbanded, but in the round it is a good day for the Army as it gives us the clarity and springboard to shape the Army to confront the challenges of the future.
"This is fair to the country as it delivers the very best capabilities that we can with the resources that we have been given. It rebalances the Army to the demands of the future with a fair distribution of resources and manpower across all of the cap badges. And it is fair at the soldier level where we shall be doing our utmost to make sure that everybody gets the best chance of being re-employed in the Army.
Re-employment possibilities
CGS was keen to stress to soldiers serving with the units to be disbanded or merged that they were no more or less likely to be selected for redundancy that others with similar skills and service record.
"Your prospects of redundancy are no greater by dint of being in a Regiment that has been selected to be removed from the order of battle," he said.
When units are withdrawn, their personnel will be reassigned to other units - where possible, within the same regiment or corps.
Although the majority of the changes are due to be made between 2014 and 2016, there may be some unit reductions before 2014, dependent on force levels in Afghanistan.
Optimistic for the future
"Overall I am optimistic that this will work well and has used the best of the resources that have been afforded to us by the country.
"Army 2020 is an ambitious vision for unprecedented times. It will demand resilience, flexibility and genuine adaptability from talented and committed officers and soldiers. In return it will provide challenge and opportunity in abundance. Soldiering in this Army will continue to be an exacting and rewarding vocation," CGS concluded.
larso
Sergeant Major
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So for the Royal Armoured Corps that will leave the following -
Regular Army -
1st The Queen's Dragoon Guards - Formation Reconnaissance
The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers and Greys) - Armoured
The Royal Dragoon Guards - Armoured
The Queen's Royal Hussars (The Queen's Own and Royal Irish) - Armoured
The King's Royal Hussars - Armoured
The Light Dragoons - Formation Reconnaissance
The Queen's Royal Lancers (or some such after 9th/12th is rolled in) - Formation Reconnaissance
1st Royal Tank Regiment (or just the Royal Tank Regt?) - Armoured and training/demonstration
"The Household Cavalry Regiment (consisting of the Life Guards and the Blues and Royals) is not part of the RAC; instead it is part of the Household Cavalry, which is classed as a corps in its own right. However, for operational purposes, the Household Cavalry Regiment is considered to be part of the RAC and constitutes the fifth formation reconnaissance regiment." Wiki
I've kept an eye of the downsizing of this force over the years and pretty much expected the two Lancer regts to be combined. Across the group, the historic names continue (Lancers, Hussars, Dragoons etc) but the numbered units are finally all gone. I'd guess at the two Royal Hussar regts to be the next two to be merged.
The famous infantry regimental names were all finally cut a few years ago. It was all part of the process to remove emotional connections in order to make the stages like the current downsizing easier.
Regular Army -
1st The Queen's Dragoon Guards - Formation Reconnaissance
The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers and Greys) - Armoured
The Royal Dragoon Guards - Armoured
The Queen's Royal Hussars (The Queen's Own and Royal Irish) - Armoured
The King's Royal Hussars - Armoured
The Light Dragoons - Formation Reconnaissance
The Queen's Royal Lancers (or some such after 9th/12th is rolled in) - Formation Reconnaissance
1st Royal Tank Regiment (or just the Royal Tank Regt?) - Armoured and training/demonstration
"The Household Cavalry Regiment (consisting of the Life Guards and the Blues and Royals) is not part of the RAC; instead it is part of the Household Cavalry, which is classed as a corps in its own right. However, for operational purposes, the Household Cavalry Regiment is considered to be part of the RAC and constitutes the fifth formation reconnaissance regiment." Wiki
I've kept an eye of the downsizing of this force over the years and pretty much expected the two Lancer regts to be combined. Across the group, the historic names continue (Lancers, Hussars, Dragoons etc) but the numbered units are finally all gone. I'd guess at the two Royal Hussar regts to be the next two to be merged.
The famous infantry regimental names were all finally cut a few years ago. It was all part of the process to remove emotional connections in order to make the stages like the current downsizing easier.
johnnybach
Major General
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And will the last soldier to leave - please switch the light off - we would like to make a saving on the electricity bill. General A.R. Sehole jb
Martin Tabony
Command Sergeant Major
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The bonuses being paid to MOD staff is realy rubbing salt into the wound! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...000-bonuses-despite-soldier-redundancies.html
Jack
Major
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I was in England just after the First Gulf War and I read in one of the papers a retired British Officer - perhaps a general but I do not remember - make the point in a letter to the editor that a British soldier could fight for a month on a tube of toothpaste while the soldiers of other nations wanted three square meals a day plus dessert. I see the English government is intent on putting that claim to the test.
The Military Workshop
1st Lieutenant
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JB,
The last one will be too busy guarding Buckingham Palace, doing his 300th rotation through Afghanistan and patrolling the Falklands on his week ends off. That is when he is not crewing the RAF's last hang glider or the RAN's last remaining coracle. Naturally the MOD will be arguing about his overtime payments.
Brett
johnnybach
Major General
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Well - Brett and jack - on a more serious note - what you have highlighted here - is that maybe NOW, Britain won't get sucked into some of the more ridiculous conflicts around the World - based on Dodgy Dossiers, spurious "evidence" of "Weapons of Mass Destruction" (which never existed ) - or just saving the rest of the World from ?????( insert whatever you like here - politicians regularly seem to do so!).
The reason we (maybe) won't get sucked in - is that we simply won't have the manpower to do these sort of "Jobs" anymore. Who the heck elected Great Britain to be the World's policeman anyway??? As a former soldier myself - I was amazed that we firstly went into Iraq - and then Afghanistan based on either spurious evidence - or a tissue of lies (choose whichever you think is appropriate).
Whilst our Service lads and lasses are wherever in the World - I'll support them, of course - AND when the survivors get back - with all of the collateral damage picked up to themselves and their families along the way. BUT - I'll also feel free to ask " What the heck are/were they doing there in the first place?" - as is MY democratic right. I also think that I'm not alone in such questions to politicians.
At least we had the good sense to get rid of the little twerp who put them in harms way - though too late for many.
I also note that a landmark legal decision has recently gone in favour of families who want to sue the MOD - for not doing enough to look after our armed service forces whilst they are at work. GOOD - about time too. I was always sick of the penny-pinching twerps who send men out into dangerous situations without sufficient kit ( like weapons, ammunition or simple things like body armour). Just compare what an American GI goes into battle with - and the begged, borrowed or stolen kit that a British soldier frequently has to put up with. Even some of our elite troops - like the SAS - frequently have to scrounge sufficient kit to go on ops ( read some of Andy McNabbs true accounts - to see what I mean!).
Maybe with less British Soldiers about - there may be enough kit, at long last, to give every soldier a fighting chance - though I doubt it - as the bean counters will want to cut back on that too.
Sorry to ramble on - BUT - Phew! - I feel much better now. Johnnybach
Mitch
Major General
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No we will be sucked in its just that the future enemy now knows if they can survive the first four shots we cannot afford the fifth. Having lost one family member and one good friend in these stupid conflicts and had a brother fight in Afghan/Iraq and Libya as a fighter pilot its just a complete farce to continue to cost cut and expect troops to undertake the politicians whims. Saving money if that is what it is all about is best made by recalling the troops and as you say stop sticking our noses into countries affairs because they don't fit with our democratic free culture mentality
Mitch
Mitch
Fusilier
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Mitch, I think what you and Johnny are alluding to is a recurring problem, espcially over the last few decades. Essentially, politicians want to have their cake and it eat it too! What I mean is, the politicians feel pressure to "do something" in certain international affairs, whether there is a specific national interest at stake or not. At the same time, they feel the need to portray themselves as budget-conscious leaders. In the end, the politicians do not feel the pinch, it is the guys on the sharp end who take the brunt of the cuts. It is the constant problem where the military is asked to accomplish more with fewer resources.
This issue is certainly not relegated to only the UK, even though that is where this thread started. And for the record, I am not referring to any specific intervention by either the UK or the US. I am just agreeing with the sentiment that politicians are often spineless entities who are usually motivated by the simplist political winds (and a good dose of political self-preservation).
Noah
This issue is certainly not relegated to only the UK, even though that is where this thread started. And for the record, I am not referring to any specific intervention by either the UK or the US. I am just agreeing with the sentiment that politicians are often spineless entities who are usually motivated by the simplist political winds (and a good dose of political self-preservation).
Noah