Casting copies of other soldiers (2 Viewers)

Cigarboy

Private
Joined
Mar 9, 2009
Messages
10
Hello there,

This is my first post. I am a collector of some of King and Country's parade figures. LAH is pretty much a large part of my collection. I am planning on casting copies of the rank and file figures to create a larger parade. Has anyone done this before? Any advice for copying an existing figure?

Thank you.
 
Cigarboy,
Wow , three new members today! Welcome to the forum! You know who might be able to help you out? TheBaron and Kilted Vampire! (among lots of others) Brad and KV have some related knowledge about casting figures, in addition to consuming German beer and Cappuchinos!
Great to have you aboard !
Mike
 
Thanks,

I was a little concerned about having my first post about casting because I know it can be a sensitive subject for some especially regarding copyright issues etc.

I am just trying to amass a large collection of rank and file soldiers and want to keep the cost down. I was just wondering if creating an identical copy is as easy as some make it out to be.
 
Dear Cigarboy,

my advice is don't cast copies of well-known makes.
The process of casting is quite straitghtforward. There are kits (Prince august) which shows you how to do home casting in small amounts. But if you are planning on large scale copies, I suggest that you visit some websites on centrifugal casting. The reason is that molten lead/tin fumes are toxic and good ventilation is required.
 
Thanks,

I was a little concerned about having my first post about casting because I know it can be a sensitive subject for some especially regarding copyright issues etc.

I am just trying to amass a large collection of rank and file soldiers and want to keep the cost down. I was just wondering if creating an identical copy is as easy as some make it out to be.

If you keep them for yourself there should be no problem. K&C figures have a lot of extra parts added on. One would have to take them apart and make silicone molds. It would take a little while but it could be done. Do you have any casting equipment now? BTW Welcome to the Forum!:)
 
I've made many molds from commercial figures over the years, but have always been careful to change the figure substantially. Although they are for myself and not for sale, I feel uncomfortable about making a spot-on copy of someone else's creation. Thus, I add a different head or gear, cut off the arms replacing them with more ralistic ones (I dislike arms molded tight against the body as I feel it's unnatural), et cetera. The result is a far more realistic figure.) In this way I can create a figure that often represents a different regiment or era while staying away from copyright issues.

Al
 
I've made many molds from commercial figures over the years, but have always been careful to change the figure substantially. Although they are for myself and not for sale, I feel uncomfortable about making a spot-on copy of someone else's creation. Thus, I add a different head or gear, cut off the arms replacing them with more ralistic ones (I dislike arms molded tight against the body as I feel it's unnatural), et cetera. The result is a far more realistic figure.) In this way I can create a figure that often represents a different regiment or era while staying away from copyright issues.

Al

That is a very good idea as well. Even better. There has always been a bit of nepotism in the toy soldier biz.
 
Thanks for all of your kind recommendations and comments. I will most likely improve my figures in to some degree so they do not look too similar to the original manufacturer. I have a few more questions.

1. How much do 1:30 scale figures cost to cast in terms of pewter, mold, mold release, and paints per figure?

2. How much does the equipment cost for an ideal set up? What equipment would you recommend?

3. What is the cost of energy to melt the pewter per figure?

4. When copying existing figures, will there be loss in detail? Is it possible to carbon copy something with little if any difference?

5. At what point does it make sense to copy instead of purchasing? I would ideally like 100-250 pieces of one particular rank and file soldier. How much of a savings can be achieved through casting my own figures? Obliviously I probably wouldn’t cast anything under 15 figures due to the amount of time it requires to set up molds and cast.

Thanks again for your time.
:)
 
Thanks for all of your kind recommendations and comments. I will most likely improve my figures in to some degree so they do not look too similar to the original manufacturer. I have a few more questions.

1. How much do 1:30 scale figures cost to cast in terms of pewter, mold, mold release, and paints per figure?

2. How much does the equipment cost for an ideal set up? What equipment would you recommend?

3. What is the cost of energy to melt the pewter per figure?

4. When copying existing figures, will there be loss in detail? Is it possible to carbon copy something with little if any difference?

5. At what point does it make sense to copy instead of purchasing? I would ideally like 100-250 pieces of one particular rank and file soldier. How much of a savings can be achieved through casting my own figures? Obliviously I probably wouldn’t cast anything under 15 figures due to the amount of time it requires to set up molds and cast.

Thanks again for your time.
:)

1 in terms of cost I would say about the price of the original figure plus all your time. But the cost drops off dramatically once you have a mold. Mold making material varies according to type of silicone type, there are several ways. Pewter was going as high as twelve dollars a lb. Now I have not checked in awhile I am sure it is better than that. 1 lb will get you about 10 to 12 single figures or maybe four horses.

2 Casting is achieved n two ways centrifical(very expensive) and drop casting. The only real expense is mold material metal and a melting pot. I use a Lee production pot. $60.00-100.00 . You can find on line. Silicone mold material starts at about $25.00 a lb and up.

3 cost varies according to your utility company. It takes about 20 minutes to melt 8 to 10 lbs. in a production pot. Then it stays on while casting.

4 You will probably lose some detail depending on the quality of the mold.
5 This really depends on you. It takes quite a little whil to paint that many fiigures. Trust me I know. But what makes it worth while is the fun.

I would start slow and learn the casting part first. You can buy molds from several different manufacturers. I like Dutkins the best. Find a melting pot first , maybe a gunshop will have one waiting for you. Then try Dutkins find a mold from an era you wish to model. There is a company called Rotometal that has fair prices for pewter. They are on line, located in San Francisco. There are books, there are people who can help. Welcome to the world of Casting.

http://www.dutkins.com/index.cfm
 
Thanks for your reply, Kilted Vampire.

I don't mind painting that many soldiers since the end result will be worth it.
My main concern is losing details when I am attempting to copy an original figure.

How many soldiers can someone cast per casting session?

Have you ever copied a figure successfully?
 
I have been casting for over fifteen years. The cost is minimal once you have the mould made. A good mould will produce a minimum of two hundred pieces with no problem.

Centrifugal casting is for the business side. There you are talking large numbers for production. The cost of the machinery is in the thousands, and if you are not an experienced mould maker with experience then forget it.
Centrifugal casting requires a heat press vulcanizer to create the mould and a vacuum centrifical spin caster. Detail in equals detail out, no problem.
But this is not a hobby, a business.

There are two methods to what I refer to as hobby casting. Drop or gravity casting and spin casting.

Spin casting is accomplished by the use of a jewelery spin casting machine. The machine is based on a spring wound technique with the mould placed horizonally and the liquid poured into a crucible prior to release. Centrifugal fource takes place fourcing the metal into the mould. Detai in equals detail out. The initial cost of the machine is $100-300. A simple galvanized wash tub as the container $30 works well.

Drop or gravity casting is done by clamping the mould and pouring the liquid in the pour area. A c-clamp and two boards are neccessary. Detail in does not allways equal detail out. But it is cheap.

The big issue comes in the mould and the metal.

Metal has different properties and shrinkage issues. Pure lead has a high shrinkage issue, is prone to oxidization(lead disease) but if flexible. Pure tin is very brital but produces good detail, and low shrinkage. Pewter is good but costly. Note, shrinkage is also based on mass volume, therfore a large mass will shrink more than a smaller mass(ie the basic figure may distort more than the parts).

To heat the metal I us a Coleman type naptha stove with a cast iron pot.

Moulds are a much more difficult problem and the key to reproduction. I will leave this for my next post.

Don
 
The number of castings you can get from a silicone mold depends on a number of things including complexity of the master (more undercuts, less figures), temperature of the metal (more figures with low temperature alloys), and number of castings made at one time (faster deterioration with little time between pourings). I don't think I've ever cast more than 30 figures from a single silicone mold w/o some deteriation using the gravity mold technique.

The last item is frequently overlooked . . . if too many castings (more than ten or so) in rapid succession, the mold will deteriorate more quickly. If you have several molds, you can alternate them so as to increase time between using a given mold. You can also stretch out the time between pourings by doing chores such as removing spew, etc.

For small parts, use a low temperature alloy acquired from firms such as from Ney Metals that can be melted over a hot plate, thus prolonging the life of molds of items like arms, heads, weapons, et cetera.

Hope this helps . . .

Al
 
Have any of you guys used that One to one mix resin? And what kind of detail do you get? Are there air holes and a lot of flash problems, does it get a full cast or does it not reach the whole mold and leave pieces of the figure uncast??? I would think the life of the mold would be a lot longer with resin.
 
Hi, Cigarboy, and welcome to the forum!

I''ve been running around the past couple of days, and am getting caught up now on the forum. I'll add that I agree with everything that's been noted here, and some of my own experience.

As to molds, there are commercially available molds made of silicon rubber, should you choose to experiment with the basic process of melting metal and casting, and leave mold-making for the next phase.
KV (Kilted Vampire) mentioned Dutkins, who is Rich Dutkin of Dutkin's Collectables. He has a wide range of molds, including his own Little Army molds, as well as figures, too, sells online/via mail and at shows, his website is www.dutkins.com. His catalogs are available at the site as downloads in PDF.
You might also try Prince August (www.princeaugust.ie), who have an extensive line of molds, covering many periods of history, and some fantasy, too. They sell molds for fully round figures, as well as smaller halfround figures suitable for wargaming, and some in classic wargame scales.
If you don't want to deal with international postage from Ireland, the Dunken Company (www.dunken.com) in Texas carries Prince August molds (that's where I got mine, when I broke into casting), among other lines of molds.
Finally, another source of molds is Castings, Inc (www.miniaturemolds.com), who carry an extensive line of molds.
All of those suppliers also sell various brands of casting metal, and you can get mold-making supplies from most of them as well, if you decide to start making your own molds, too.

As to metal, I use lead and old linotype metal, in various combinations, depending on the material of the molds. Linotype is an alloy of tin, antimony and lead. The tin gives the metal its rigidity, allowing for crispness of detail. Years ago I purchased about 100 pounds of it from a gentleman who cleaned out print shops when they closed. I got two 25 pound bars, and a couple buckets of finished type. The type was really handy, since I could throw a couple of pieces in the pot at a time, whereas the bars, I tried cutting into pieces with a hacksaw (tedious), and then melted down into pigs in one big session (I used an aluminum muffin top pan to make the pigs, they're about the size of a silver dollar, much easier to work with). I'm still working my way through that supply. But I've also collected tire weights (if you ask at a garage or gas station, often the owner will give them away), which I refine by melting, skimming off the dross, and then pouring into pigs as well.
I vary the mix that I use, depending on whether the mold is rubber or metal; I've found that my metal molds take longer to warm up, even if I pre-warm them, and a mix richer in lead will fill the whole mold before it cools too much to flow, while the linotype allow will cool before it gets to the bottom of the mold. Using the small pigs lets me adjust the mixture batch by batch.

For melting, I use a ladle that I got at a sporting goods store that sold black powder supplies. It consists of a cast iron bowl, with a heating coil inside. I think KV mentioned using a larger pot, the kind that has a spigot at the base. That is handy, if you will be working with several pounds of metal in one session. Again, a place that sells black powder supplies will probably have some on hand, or at least, will have a catalog from which to order it.

Don mentioned the difference between drop or gravity casting, in which the lead is poured into the upright mold and flows to the bottom by gravity, and centrifugal or spin casting, which uses centrifugal force to force the metal into the mold. He's right about the cost of the machine, and that's why most home casters tend to use drop casting. But his post mentions smaller units costing a couple of hundred dollars, which I didn't know, Don, please post more info about such a machine.

I have read articles by homecasters who built their own spin casters, usually using a record turntable. It can be done, but you have to be very careful in constructing it, and take into account that if the mold isn't sealed properly, you will have molten metal flung in all directions. Personally, I haven't had to go to that level of casting; drop casting works fine for me.

If you use rubber molds, dust them with talcum powder before casting, and if metal molds, blacken them with a candle flame. The powder or soot acts actually acts a lubricant between the molten metal and the surface of the flame.

It's also a good idea to cast in a well-ventilated area, if possible. I also use an old baking sheet, with raised sides, as a base, to catch any metal that might spill.

Good luck and welcome to the ranks of the homecasters! I much prefer casting my own, to paying $30 or more for single figures from commercial makers.

Prost!
Brad
 
Thanks for all of the advice on molds.
I plan on copying an original figure and not purchasing a commercial mold since my diorama is using LAH from K&C and I want it to look similar if not identical to the original pieces.

I am most curious to see if anyone has copied a Britain, or a KC or any other manufacturer successfully... for personal use of course.

Also, could one not make molds from Tamiya model 1:35 figures for toy soldiers?
How much of a loss in detail would there be?
 
This is a picture of the machine. It is a commercial jewlers spinner but I have never been able to identify the macker of the clamping device. It was duplicated for a friend.
 
Here is the picture of the casting machine and colman stove. Pigion Lake is in the window behind. And yes, health is something that you must consider.
 

Attachments

  • DSCN0967.gif
    DSCN0967.gif
    25.4 KB · Views: 315
The number of casting is dependent on:

the type of rubber
the undercuts, those that will stress the rubber
allowing the mould to recover (not overheat)
the type of metal

I have over 1000 castings in one mould. It is still producing.

Attached ius the second production of the guards massed band all fro the same mould.
 

Attachments

  • DSCN0968.gif
    DSCN0968.gif
    53.1 KB · Views: 315
There are many types of moulds and mould making material available. I will discuss these in future posts. While I started my career with first generation computers where you could walk in the memory bank, age has not allowed me to keep up.

Just breifly, vulkcanize mould with withstand higher heat and tear provided no deep undercuts. Prince August/Dukin are examples. But again they can not be produced without the proper equipment, and are for the mass. Not for duplication of a new or obsolete piece.

I will take about Dow Corning products soon, and there are many.

I first cast using plaster moulds, and cuttlefish moulds. Let's here it from the experienced if they can remember when silicone rubber was not an option.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top