Casting copies of other soldiers (2 Viewers)

[1879fanatic]

I hope you were not thinking I was encouraging him to sell them. Just for private use. I apologize if I did not make that clear. Is it ok if he modifies it? Using your figure as a starting point?

Private Use Piracy Police (PUPP) wil send their "Wrath of God" units after you, and poof, no more KV
Mike

 

[Cigarboy]

Well, I knew this type of response was likely to emerge.
I do not want to do this for profit and I do not encourage people stealing intellectual property etc. I am obviously a supporter of King and Country and would never think of harming the industry in any way. I just wish I could have more of some of the figures which are discontinued. I am more of a modeler than a toy collector and wanted to build a parade and didn't think too much of legal implications when it is for my personal use. I basically think of it as if I copied a CD which I already own for my own personal use.

Let me rephrase my question and just say that I am wanted to copy a figure from a company which is no longer around.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Well, I knew this type of response was likely to emerge.
I do not want to do this for profit and I do not encourage people stealing intellectual property etc. I am obviously a supporter of King and Country and would never think of harming the industry in any way. I just wish I could have more of some of the figures which are discontinued. I am more of a modeler than a toy collector and wanted to build a parade and didn't think too much of legal implications when it is for my personal use. I basically think of it as if I copied a CD which I already own for my own personal use.

Let me rephrase my question and just say that I am wanted to copy a figure from a company which is no longer around.

Well I think the answer is that it is more likely to be OK but in either case in the US, what you have to do is interpret the limitations of the fair use exception to the basic rules against copying in the copyright acts.

The US Copyright Act gives copyright holders the exclusive right to reproduce works for a limited time period. Fair use is a limitation on this right. A use which is considered "fair" does not infringe copyright, even if it involves one of the exclusive rights of copyright holders. Fair use allows consumers to make a copy of part or all of a copyrighted work, even where the copyright holder has not given permission or objects to your use of the work.

Now the tricky part is that there are no clear-cut rules for deciding what's fair use and there are no "automatic" classes of fair uses. Fair use is decided by a judge, on a case by case basis, after balancing the four factors listed in section 107 of the Copyright statute. The factors to be considered include:

1) The purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes -- Courts are more likely to find fair use where the use is for noncommercial purposes.
2) The nature of the copyrighted work -- A particular use is more likely to be fair where the copied work is factual rather than creative.
3) The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole -- A court will balance this factor toward a finding of fair use where the amount taken is small or insignificant in proportion to the overall work.
4) The effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work -- If the court finds the newly created work is not a substitute product for the copyrighted work, it will be more likely to weigh this factor in favor of fair use.

I am pretty sure the US Supreme Court has not addressed Fair Use as it applies to making duplicates of your copyrighted miniatures but various courts have considered and allowed the limited copying of various personal items from tapes to artwork. Applying the four factors above to your issue, the first is clearly on your side and the second is against it. The third is affected by how many you make, as is the fourth.

Dispite the understandable negative reaction expressed by K&C, it is not clear to me that you could not make backups of your soldiers but at some point, as in your many lines of soldiers example, a judge may well decide you crossed the line if the copyright holder complains. There are very few examples of cases against persons using copies solely for their personal use but, if one was brought here, I am sure the producers would agrue that allowing the copies would seriously undermine the commercial value of their works and they might legitimately win with that. Of course, all of the above relates to US copyright protection and while the basics are similar for most Western countries, I don't know how much Canadian courts may view it differently. The best I can tell you without researching the issue is that I would tread lightly with this one and if you do it, keep the matter (and the source) to your self.

 

[jazzeum]

Very good advice and explanation of the law. The key, of course, is if the copyholder complains. As long as the use is small and not blatant, it's not probably worth it to the copyholder to initiate an action other than perhaps sending a cease and desist letter.

 

[damian]

If you make a few moulds to flesh out your own collection and it goes no further than the bedpost then you are OK. If however you start to mass produce and sell the figures to the public then you will quite rightly get into hot water.

 

[Cigarboy]

If you make a few moulds to flesh out your own collection and it goes no further than the bedpost then you are OK. If however you start to mass produce and sell the figures to the public then you will quite rightly get into hot water.

As I previously mentioned, I am doing this for my own personal collection/diorama. I am not interested in selling anything. I collect Third Reich militaria and the fakes in the market are making the hobby a real drag. I also enjoy designer products and have never bought a fake item in my life because it just isn't the same. I would never contribute to this type of economy.

I should have never opened this can of worms by mentioning a manufacturer I wanted to replicate. That was foolish of me. I was just seeking advice on the techniques for copying an existing figure for PERSONAL USE.

 

[damian]

As I previously mentioned, I am doing this for my own personal collection/diorama. I am not interested in selling anything. I collect Third Reich militaria and the fakes in the market are making the hobby a real drag. I also enjoy designer products and have never bought a fake item in my life because it just isn't the same. I would never contribute to this type of economy.

I should have never opened this can of worms by mentioning a manufacturer I wanted to replicate. That was foolish of me. I was just seeking advice on the techniques for copying an existing figure for PERSONAL USE.

To be honest, I think most of us understood what you meant.
Obviously not everyone did though.
Too bad

 

[Spitfrnd]

To be honest, I think most of us understood what you meant.
Obviously not everyone did though.
Too bad

Yes I think we did too. That is why I answered your question as completely as I did. The fact that you want to do it for PERSONAL USE is one of the 4 factors related to whether you can legally do it (at least under US copyright law, which is similar to that of most of the west) and may make the difference but that is not guaranteed. The more you copy of the same object, the more the risk more or less. But as Brad notes, most companies would not bother with a personal use case unless you made a big show of it, as in showing them on the forums, and if they did they would most likely start with a strong letter telling you to stop.

 

[1879fanatic]

Cigarboy,
"You don't have hair one" if you don't commence your quest immediately! I'm sure we want to see your progress as well. Good luck, and I'm confident guys will help you out if you have questions. Personal Use Only-Go forth and multiply!
Mike

 

[Tinsoldier]

I did not want to get into this discussion for the politics. I enjoy casting, and painting. Not sure which is most enjoyable?

The world has changed. Copyrights are for protection from the product being a financial gain by retailing it as that product or a representation thereof. If it has been altered at what point does the copyright not apply. What about your painting style. What goes around comes around. The economic times will dictate that. If the product is good, and the marketing strategy is consistent, then copyrights are only for lawyers to get rich on. Supply vs. demand.

And some manufactures have it right, John Jenkins for one, Beau Geste is another that has consistent reverse strategies (limited vs. nonlimited). If everything is consistently limited then the customer knows what the economic/idealistic conditions are to achieve and maintain a complete collection Ongoing production means that a new collector, or financially challenged collector (can’t afford it that minute) can still achieve a complete collection.

Then we get into the middle where either a manufacturer introduces a limited version to an existing line, or uses the withdrawal (retire) technique of the product to severely alter the demand equation. And we have the manufacturer that disappears and then is resurrected. Making a mould, casting and painting to a finished product require both time, effort and money. If sufficient product is available at reasonable cost, then there is no need to copy.

So, to make a mould, do you have to take the paint off, it depends. But in reiteration for the last time, it is the volume and density of rubber to reduce squish, the type of metal, and force of gravity that will determine the result.

As you grow older then hobbies will be more important. Children grow up and have their own direction; hobbies are yours to die with. To duplicate to enhance your own collection for your pleasure, the Lord only knows. A higher court can decide. Manufacturers must realize that a larger display of their figures even if some are copies still promote their product.

Matt paints (which are utilized more today in the manufacture of figures), are thinner and therefore obscure the original design. An overspray of matt or gloss protection does provide a film where detail is lost. I have produced moulds from both raw/striped and fully painted models. It really depends on the manufacturer, and time period.

I paint in gloss paint; it withstands handling, covers well and is bright.

An overspray is nice, but does not cover every area, I have bought figures were you can see the inaccessible area not covered. I have done the same. Matt paints come in more colors, are easy to mix, and dry much faster. It’s up to the individual.

First of all, the quality of the original figure is key. A poor casting can not be painted to produce a good figure, but a good casting can be painted poorly.


To finish, there are many facets of this hobby. Restricting to what I refer to as “Toy Soldier” then there are three. The plastic, which I enjoy and have painted. Then there is traditional glossy which I enjoy. And the new diorama motivated (matt more than gloss).

Plastics are figures you play with. Give me so firecrackers and the vegetable garden and we can have a great war. Playsets amuse the young and the old. Those in-between have to get between there and there. Been there, done it.

The last two have the same issues. quality/quantity and space. A famous sculptor and model maker once visited a good friend of mine and commented. While he produced single figure/model pieces, mass displays were impressive. He was very aware of detail, (number of buttons), but when you look at fifty figures, are you really going to find the one that has the wrong number. Quality is objective, this manufacturer vs. another. Space is always an issue. The more you have the more you want. I will say no more other than, if you can not display it, it is not yours. Quantity is based on affordability. Affordability is based on market strategy(Price and availability).

I have come full circle. The days of going to Woolworth’s and buying B grade Britain’s to create your mass army are long gone. So is Woolworth’s this year. I can afford one or two, but two hundred or thousand. My basic minimum display is twenty figures, upwards.
For you to cast and create a bigger personal display should not be decided in the courts.

 

[maddadicus]

I will tag along on this subject, with an open request to casters. I am looking for someone to cast replicas of soldiers of a particular defunct napoleonic mfg. that I own. The owner is from another country and has been a friend of mine for 7 years now. He has dropped off the face of the map and I have lost contact with him for almost 8 weeks. He owes me a large number of prepaid sets and figures. I am hoping now to fill in figures of units I need. They will be mine alone for my personal collection. I am tired of looking at the holes in my display case. I would pay for all supplies that would be needed. I believe that heads and some arms are usually separate pieces with this mfg. ,but I would trust you to hack and burn the originals to make what you need. Please PM me, if interested..Michael

 

[Martin Tabony]

I have been reading some comments about it being fine to copy figures if, it's for "personal use".
Well I get the idea that a lot of collectors think that all us manufacturerers are large companies. That's not the case, in my case I've been making figures since 1976 and hopfully I've been getting better at it and with time I gradualy started to make a living, that's right a living not huge profits, just enough to pay my bills and feed the kids as they were growing up.
I was lucky that I could make money from a hobby sure and I'm sure that there are lots of people that do boreing jobs to make money, but if I robbed them for that money would it be o.k. as long as that money was for my "personal use".
How many collectors realise the time and costs involved in making a new range of figures. By the time the master is made pre production moulds production moulds, metal packaging, advertising etc. If your lucky you'll make money on one range that can off set the losses of another. a
And then you find out that someone is stealing your work or food from the kids mouths it's the same thing. That's why I stopped selling castings, I didn't see the point in making things easy for the pirates. Perhaps most companies would not chase you through the courts but they should.

 

[Martin Tabony]

That is a very good idea as well. Even better. There has always been a bit of nepotism in the toy soldier biz.

What do you mean "nepotism" . Do you think that you are entitled to take my work and profit by it, (And by profit I mean not pay) but my son is not?

 

[Martin Tabony]

Thanks for all of your kind recommendations and comments. I will most likely improve my figures in to some degree so they do not look too similar to the original manufacturer. I have a few more questions.

1. How much do 1:30 scale figures cost to cast in terms of pewter, mold, mold release, and paints per figure?

2. How much does the equipment cost for an ideal set up? What equipment would you recommend?

3. What is the cost of energy to melt the pewter per figure?

4. When copying existing figures, will there be loss in detail? Is it possible to carbon copy something with little if any difference?

5. At what point does it make sense to copy instead of purchasing? I would ideally like 100-250 pieces of one particular rank and file soldier. How much of a savings can be achieved through casting my own figures? Obliviously I probably wouldn’t cast anything under 15 figures due to the amount of time it requires to set up molds and cast.

Thanks again for your time.

If you are considering these costs, why not consider paying someone to make a new (not ripped off master) for you then you would not be a theif.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Hi, Cigarboy, and welcome to the forum!

I''ve been running around the past couple of days, and am getting caught up now on the forum. I'll add that I agree with everything that's been noted here, and some of my own experience.

As to molds, there are commercially available molds made of silicon rubber, should you choose to experiment with the basic process of melting metal and casting, and leave mold-making for the next phase.
KV (Kilted Vampire) mentioned Dutkins, who is Rich Dutkin of Dutkin's Collectables. He has a wide range of molds, including his own Little Army molds, as well as figures, too, sells online/via mail and at shows, his website is www.dutkins.com. His catalogs are available at the site as downloads in PDF.
You might also try Prince August (www.princeaugust.ie), who have an extensive line of molds, covering many periods of history, and some fantasy, too. They sell molds for fully round figures, as well as smaller halfround figures suitable for wargaming, and some in classic wargame scales.
If you don't want to deal with international postage from Ireland, the Dunken Company (www.dunken.com) in Texas carries Prince August molds (that's where I got mine, when I broke into casting), among other lines of molds.
Finally, another source of molds is Castings, Inc (www.miniaturemolds.com), who carry an extensive line of molds.
All of those suppliers also sell various brands of casting metal, and you can get mold-making supplies from most of them as well, if you decide to start making your own molds, too.

As to metal, I use lead and old linotype metal, in various combinations, depending on the material of the molds. Linotype is an alloy of tin, antimony and lead. The tin gives the metal its rigidity, allowing for crispness of detail. Years ago I purchased about 100 pounds of it from a gentleman who cleaned out print shops when they closed. I got two 25 pound bars, and a couple buckets of finished type. The type was really handy, since I could throw a couple of pieces in the pot at a time, whereas the bars, I tried cutting into pieces with a hacksaw (tedious), and then melted down into pigs in one big session (I used an aluminum muffin top pan to make the pigs, they're about the size of a silver dollar, much easier to work with). I'm still working my way through that supply. But I've also collected tire weights (if you ask at a garage or gas station, often the owner will give them away), which I refine by melting, skimming off the dross, and then pouring into pigs as well.
I vary the mix that I use, depending on whether the mold is rubber or metal; I've found that my metal molds take longer to warm up, even if I pre-warm them, and a mix richer in lead will fill the whole mold before it cools too much to flow, while the linotype allow will cool before it gets to the bottom of the mold. Using the small pigs lets me adjust the mixture batch by batch.

For melting, I use a ladle that I got at a sporting goods store that sold black powder supplies. It consists of a cast iron bowl, with a heating coil inside. I think KV mentioned using a larger pot, the kind that has a spigot at the base. That is handy, if you will be working with several pounds of metal in one session. Again, a place that sells black powder supplies will probably have some on hand, or at least, will have a catalog from which to order it.

Don mentioned the difference between drop or gravity casting, in which the lead is poured into the upright mold and flows to the bottom by gravity, and centrifugal or spin casting, which uses centrifugal force to force the metal into the mold. He's right about the cost of the machine, and that's why most home casters tend to use drop casting. But his post mentions smaller units costing a couple of hundred dollars, which I didn't know, Don, please post more info about such a machine.

I have read articles by homecasters who built their own spin casters, usually using a record turntable. It can be done, but you have to be very careful in constructing it, and take into account that if the mold isn't sealed properly, you will have molten metal flung in all directions. Personally, I haven't had to go to that level of casting; drop casting works fine for me.

If you use rubber molds, dust them with talcum powder before casting, and if metal molds, blacken them with a candle flame. The powder or soot acts actually acts a lubricant between the molten metal and the surface of the flame.

It's also a good idea to cast in a well-ventilated area, if possible. I also use an old baking sheet, with raised sides, as a base, to catch any metal that might spill.

Good luck and welcome to the ranks of the homecasters! I much prefer casting my own, to paying $30 or more for single figures from commercial makers.

Prost!
Brad

Hopefully you make you're own figures though !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Martin Tabony]

I hope you were not thinking I was encouraging him to sell them. Just for private use. I apologize if I did not make that clear. Is it ok if he modifies it? Using your figure as a starting point?

Just because you don't sell them doesn't mean you're not profiting from someone elses work. I hope you all understand that having been on the recieving end of pirates and thieves puts a different light on this issue, every time I'm asked for a casting I have to wonder whether I.m going to be ripped off!!!!!!!

 

[Martin Tabony]

Well, I knew this type of response was likely to emerge.
I do not want to do this for profit and I do not encourage people stealing intellectual property etc. I am obviously a supporter of King and Country and would never think of harming the industry in any way. I just wish I could have more of some of the figures which are discontinued. I am more of a modeler than a toy collector and wanted to build a parade and didn't think too much of legal implications when it is for my personal use. I basically think of it as if I copied a CD which I already own for my own personal use.

Let me rephrase my question and just say that I am wanted to copy a figure from a company which is no longer around.

By taking someone elses work you are profiting!! Would you copy a parade of C.C ? As to copying a company that is no longer around, chances are they're no longer around because of pirates!!!!

 

[Martin Tabony]

Very good advice and explanation of the law. The key, of course, is if the copyholder complains. As long as the use is small and not blatant, it's not probably worth it to the copyholder to initiate an action other than perhaps sending a cease and desist letter.

Even if a theif doesn't get caught he is still a thief!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Martin Tabony]

I did not want to get into this discussion for the politics. I enjoy casting, and painting. Not sure which is most enjoyable?

The world has changed. Copyrights are for protection from the product being a financial gain by retailing it as that product or a representation thereof. If it has been altered at what point does the copyright not apply. What about your painting style. What goes around comes around. The economic times will dictate that. If the product is good, and the marketing strategy is consistent, then copyrights are only for lawyers to get rich on. Supply vs. demand.

And some manufactures have it right, John Jenkins for one, Beau Geste is another that has consistent reverse strategies (limited vs. nonlimited). If everything is consistently limited then the customer knows what the economic/idealistic conditions are to achieve and maintain a complete collection Ongoing production means that a new collector, or financially challenged collector (can’t afford it that minute) can still achieve a complete collection.

Then we get into the middle where either a manufacturer introduces a limited version to an existing line, or uses the withdrawal (retire) technique of the product to severely alter the demand equation. And we have the manufacturer that disappears and then is resurrected. Making a mould, casting and painting to a finished product require both time, effort and money. If sufficient product is available at reasonable cost, then there is no need to copy.

So, to make a mould, do you have to take the paint off, it depends. But in reiteration for the last time, it is the volume and density of rubber to reduce squish, the type of metal, and force of gravity that will determine the result.

As you grow older then hobbies will be more important. Children grow up and have their own direction; hobbies are yours to die with. To duplicate to enhance your own collection for your pleasure, the Lord only knows. A higher court can decide. Manufacturers must realize that a larger display of their figures even if some are copies still promote their product.

Matt paints (which are utilized more today in the manufacture of figures), are thinner and therefore obscure the original design. An overspray of matt or gloss protection does provide a film where detail is lost. I have produced moulds from both raw/striped and fully painted models. It really depends on the manufacturer, and time period.

I paint in gloss paint; it withstands handling, covers well and is bright.

An overspray is nice, but does not cover every area, I have bought figures were you can see the inaccessible area not covered. I have done the same. Matt paints come in more colors, are easy to mix, and dry much faster. It’s up to the individual.

First of all, the quality of the original figure is key. A poor casting can not be painted to produce a good figure, but a good casting can be painted poorly.


To finish, there are many facets of this hobby. Restricting to what I refer to as “Toy Soldier” then there are three. The plastic, which I enjoy and have painted. Then there is traditional glossy which I enjoy. And the new diorama motivated (matt more than gloss).

Plastics are figures you play with. Give me so firecrackers and the vegetable garden and we can have a great war. Playsets amuse the young and the old. Those in-between have to get between there and there. Been there, done it.

The last two have the same issues. quality/quantity and space. A famous sculptor and model maker once visited a good friend of mine and commented. While he produced single figure/model pieces, mass displays were impressive. He was very aware of detail, (number of buttons), but when you look at fifty figures, are you really going to find the one that has the wrong number. Quality is objective, this manufacturer vs. another. Space is always an issue. The more you have the more you want. I will say no more other than, if you can not display it, it is not yours. Quantity is based on affordability. Affordability is based on market strategy(Price and availability).

I have come full circle. The days of going to Woolworth’s and buying B grade Britain’s to create your mass army are long gone. So is Woolworth’s this year. I can afford one or two, but two hundred or thousand. My basic minimum display is twenty figures, upwards.
For you to cast and create a bigger personal display should not be decided in the courts.

Do you realy not get it? Even if you do not sell copied figures you are still profiting, every figure you copy equals an amount of money that you are not paying to the rightful owner. This is theft pure and simple. Make all the excuses you want it's still theft!!!!!!!

 

[Martin Tabony]

I have been reading some comments about it being fine to copy figures if, it's for "personal use".
Well I get the idea that a lot of collectors think that all us manufacturerers are large companies. That's not the case, in my case I've been making figures since 1976 and hopfully I've been getting better at it and with time I gradualy started to make a living, that's right a living not huge profits, just enough to pay my bills and feed the kids as they were growing up.
I was lucky that I could make money from a hobby sure and I'm sure that there are lots of people that do boreing jobs to make money, but if I robbed them for that money would it be o.k. as long as that money was for my "personal use".
How many collectors realise the time and costs involved in making a new range of figures. By the time the master is made pre production moulds production moulds, metal packaging, advertising etc. If your lucky you'll make money on one range that can off set the losses of another. a
And then you find out that someone is stealing your work or food from the kids mouths it's the same thing. That's why I stopped selling castings, I didn't see the point in making things easy for the pirates. Perhaps most companies would not chase you through the courts but they should.

Oh and by the way anyone that thinks it's o.k. because you're just using parts of someones work, that's like the thief who says "there was £100 but I only took £10, so I'm not a thief"