Casting copies of other soldiers (3 Viewers)

[marco55]

PJ,
I have heard about garage kits but don't know anything about them.Are they copies of others work?What exactly are they?
Mark

 

[Martin Tabony]

PJ,
I have heard about garage kits but don't know anything about them.Are they copies of others work?What exactly are they?
Mark

My understanding of "garage kits" is that they are usualy sculpted and produced properly but without the permision of the copyright owner. Although not always, it has become a slang term used to mean ( usualy ) large scale vinyl kits of a sci fi or fantasy subject. As the name sujests made in the home garage. Again though because it has become a general term there are legit companies involved that would never make figures without permision. Just ask the maker if he has permision he will be happy to tell you if not, don't support him with your money

 

[theBaron]

My understanding of "garage kits" is that they are usualy sculpted and produced properly but without the permision of the copyright owner. Although not always, it has become a slang term used to mean ( usualy ) large scale vinyl kits of a sci fi or fantasy subject. As the name sujests made in the home garage. Again though because it has become a general term there are legit companies involved that would never make figures without permision. Just ask the maker if he has permision he will be happy to tell you if not, don't support him with your money

That's not an entirely accurate definition of garage kits. You're correct, it is applied in the genre of sci-fi and anime resin kits, but it doesn't imply that the kit is an unauthorized copy. Rather, it's more a modern version of the older term "cottage industry". Garage kits are usually short-run kits produced by a sculptor/caster, operating out of a small workshop, as opposed to kits produced by larger, better-funded companies.

Though it is true that sci-fi and anime kits are often the target of piracy, the sheer number of such copies suggests that the pirates are operating on a larger scale than the garage kit producer, and many copies come out of the People's Republic of China, where copyright infringement is almost a business "best practice".

 

[Martin Tabony]

That's not an entirely accurate definition of garage kits. You're correct, it is applied in the genre of sci-fi and anime resin kits, but it doesn't imply that the kit is an unauthorized copy. Rather, it's more a modern version of the older term "cottage industry". Garage kits are usually short-run kits produced by a sculptor/caster, operating out of a small workshop, as opposed to kits produced by larger, better-funded companies.

Though it is true that sci-fi and anime kits are often the target of piracy, the sheer number of such copies suggests that the pirates are operating on a larger scale than the garage kit producer, and many copies come out of the People's Republic of China, where copyright infringement is almost a business "best practice".

I only explained it as I under stood the slang meaning . The problem with slang is different meanings in different areas, who said? "Britain and America two countries serperated by a common language". You say tomatoe

 

[damian]

Martin
We are still keen to see your latest soldiers.
Some of us live far away from the London show.
So please post some images.
It is OK to "tout" for toy soldier business here.
If you were selling tupperware or life insurance that would be different.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Martin
We are still keen to see your latest soldiers.
Some of us live far away from the London show.
So please post some images.
It is OK to "tout" for toy soldier business here.
If you were selling tupperware or life insurance that would be different.

As I said I am trying to sort some pictures, but honestly I am not looking for business!

 

[The Military Workshop]

I also have been following this thread with interest.
I was surprised at the concept that it is OK to copy somebody's figures because it is cheaper when creating a display with multiple figures.
I have produced figure kits which involved paying a sculptor, packaging, advertising etc and it is not easy to make a decent profit as you have already spent thousand before the first kit is made. The master of the original figures (200mm scale) cost me A$2,000. I see exactly where Martin is coming from as it is a hard way to make a decent living. Not something I would do again.
In 2000 I produced a Ltd Ed Print depicting the Australian
Thanks to PJ for putting the right perspective on this.
Regards
Brett

 

[Martin Tabony]

I also have been following this thread with interest.
I was surprised at the concept that it is OK to copy somebody's figures because it is cheaper when creating a display with multiple figures.
I have produced figure kits which involved paying a sculptor, packaging, advertising etc and it is not easy to make a decent profit as you have already spent thousand before the first kit is made. The master of the original figures (200mm scale) cost me A$2,000. I see exactly where Martin is coming from as it is a hard way to make a decent living. Not something I would do again.
In 2000 I produced a Ltd Ed Print depicting the Australian
Thanks to PJ for putting the right perspective on this.
Regards
Brett

It's also nice to see that I'll not alown

Martin

 

[The Military Workshop]

I got interrupted but as I was saying
In 2000 I produced a Ltd Ed Print depicting the Australian deplyment to East Timor.
About 3 years later I met two soldiers who told me how they obtained their prints and it was obvious it was not my original version. Basically somebody in an Army office in East Timor had used Army equipment to make multiple copies of my original print and then laminated them. They were freely available to any body who wanted to pick one up at no cost ! Easy to do when the Army was paying for the copying and laminating. They had only copied the image but not the text and signature and S/No beneath. This was done very soon after the print was released.
Needless to say the artist and myself were extremely upset. If I had found out at the time I am pretty sure I could have seriously embarrassed the Army.
Particularly when some of our prints had generated A$10,000 for a Timor charity chosen by the commander of the deployment.
Regards
Brett

 

[Martin Tabony]

I got interrupted but as I was saying
In 2000 I produced a Ltd Ed Print depicting the Australian deplyment to East Timor.
About 3 years later I met two soldiers who told me how they obtained their prints and it was obvious it was not my original version. Basically somebody in an Army office in East Timor had used Army equipment to make multiple copies of my original print and then laminated them. They were freely available to any body who wanted to pick one up at no cost ! Easy to do when the Army was paying for the copying and laminating. They had only copied the image but not the text and signature and S/No beneath. This was done very soon after the print was released.
Needless to say the artist and myself were extremely upset. If I had found out at the time I am pretty sure I could have seriously embarrassed the Army.
Particularly when some of our prints had generated A$10,000 for a Timor charity chosen by the commander of the deployment.
Regards
Brett

It might not too late

 

[PJDeluhery]

That's not an entirely accurate definition of garage kits. You're correct, it is applied in the genre of sci-fi and anime resin kits, but it doesn't imply that the kit is an unauthorized copy. Rather, it's more a modern version of the older term "cottage industry". Garage kits are usually short-run kits produced by a sculptor/caster, operating out of a small workshop, as opposed to kits produced by larger, better-funded companies.

Though it is true that sci-fi and anime kits are often the target of piracy, the sheer number of such copies suggests that the pirates are operating on a larger scale than the garage kit producer, and many copies come out of the People's Republic of China, where copyright infringement is almost a business "best practice".

My understanding of the term "garage kit" matches yours. They were small run kits initially produced by someone in their garage. Now, it's a legitimate business, and they are not usually unauthorized copies.

International copyright infringement is a huge problem. There are havens, such as China, where infringement is not only tolerated but encouraged - partly for political purposes. Manufacturers can't chase every infringer, and these guys are often in and out of business too fast to prosecute. We see this happen time and time again in the miniature figure kit world. The best way to fight these parasites is simply not to buy their product. If it's not profitable, they'll move on to some other scam. My goal here is to help create and reinforce that ethic.

I don't think the guys here who copy are intending to do harm, but they do not realize that they are doing great harm to manufacturers and dealers when they copy. I really hope that they will re-think this. And I really hope that we in this community will develop a zero-tolerance policy of not copying, or buying illegal copies or tolerating those who do this. If we all practice this ethic, the infringers will find their efforts unprofitable, and move on to some other activity.

I love my toy soldiers and miniatures. They have enriched my life in good times and bad. I would never do anything to endanger those who provide them to me. I think we are living in the "golden age" of toy soldier production and collecting. We need to do all we can to keep it going as long as possible by making sure that those who give us this great stuff find it economically worthwhile to do so.

 

[John Tremelling]

As a new boy to this forum I have been scanning past subjects. This particular one caught my eye and I have just spent some time reading it in whole. Consequently I offer this for consideration.

I enjoy renovating old toys, repairing/repainting them to original 'as sold' condition. These are invariably 'low tech' toys of my childhood and before, and I would think not now commercially available. I do this for pleasure, buying decrepit toys at junk sales, and renovating them to the beloved status which many, hopefully most enjoyed when new. I do not have the funds to buy originals, even if they were available, and quite frankly I would not enjoy doing so because anyone with money can produce a cheque book and buy a collection of anything, there is no skill, love or devotion in that. I have quite recently branched out into toy soldiers, buying examples, often without heads or arms. I do have a very few in good condition, which I use as examples and where necessary patterns to cast any necessary parts, and repair and repaint originals. By toy soldiers I mean lead soldiers, pre 1966 Britain’s and before as well as other mainly UK manufacturers. Whilst I repaint them to the 'as sold' style and standard, I would think that anyone with any knowledge would tell them apart from original condition, thus after my passing I doubt that they would ever pass as originals or 'fakes'.

To date I have never sold anything, sometimes giving them away as gifts but generally keeping them to play with my grandchildren.

I do not know if any previous posters to this thread will read this post, but if they do I wonder if they would comment on either the morality or legality of my actions? Whilst I fully realise that I am copying some probably long dead sculptor or painters work, morally I would hope that they would be pleased at my extending the lifespan of their products. I do also believe that, particularly with music, there is a 50 year limitation to copyright? Does the same apply to toys?

Regards

John T

 

[jazzeum]

John,

As a Jazz collector, I am familiar with the 50 year limitation for copyright holders that exists in the EU. Unfortunately, I can't tell you what the limiation might be for other artistic creations. However, I think the Internet should be able to give you a ready answer.

As far as morality, a Professor in law school told me the two concepts should never be uttered in the same breath as one has nothing to do with the other.

 

[theBaron]

Well, at a high level, doesn't the law flow from morality in this case? Generally, in the West, we accept the moral rule, "Thou shalt not steal", whether we believe it divinely inspired or otherwise, and we define stealing as taking another's property without permission or remuneration. Whether the value is high or low doesn't remove the moral violation, though it has bearing on the law that flows from that moral rule. So, copying is wrong, but as far as the law goes, we recognize that some violations are more serious than others. Generally, it seems the line is drawn at selling your copies, and the more visibly you do, the more likely you are to attract the attention of those who enforce the laws, and the original proprietors.

Prost!
Brad

 

[John Tremelling]

Another of my hobbies is recreating historic military images, particulary equestrian. As an example, I have copied armour from the Royal Armouries collection, and re created images from contempory artwork. Is this plagiarism? Where does one draw the line? I am confident that the legal profession do not want a line. Cynic? Moi?

The law is an ***, and I say this as an ex policeman. I abhor the complications which have been generated in Western legal systems, but do admire and ahere to the simplicity of the juror system as used in many Western legal systems. The law should in this simplicity consist only of the 10 Commandments, and should derive from morality. Please be assured that I sympathise with modern sculptors whose work is copied, and would support any action which they might take against pirating as I would consider that to be theft, but I am also confident that I could convince 12 of my peers, in this case any 12 selected from this forum’s community, that my actions are reasonable, and I would not expect to have to pay some lawyer huge fees to argue my point for me.

I did say that I am a new boy, and I have no wish to be confrontational. Having been a soldier, sailor and policeman I have seen enough of that. Thus if my views are considered out of place please say so, and I shall leave this forum.

Sincerely,

John T

 

[1879fanatic]

Another of my hobbies is recreating historic military images, particulary equestrian. As an example, I have copied armour from the Royal Armouries collection, and re created images from contempory artwork. Is this plagiarism? Where does one draw the line? I am confident that the legal profession do not want a line. Cynic? Moi?

The law is an ***, and I say this as an ex policeman. I abhor the complications which have been generated in Western legal systems, but do admire and ahere to the simplicity of the juror system as used in many Western legal systems. The law should in this simplicity consist only of the 10 Commandments, and should derive from morality. Please be assured that I sympathise with modern sculptors whose work is copied, and would support any action which they might take against pirating as I would consider that to be theft, but I am also confident that I could convince 12 of my peers, in this case any 12 selected from this forum’s community, that my actions are reasonable, and I would not expect to have to pay some lawyer huge fees to argue my point for me.

I did say that I am a new boy, and I have no wish to be confrontational. Having been a soldier, sailor and policeman I have seen enough of that. Thus if my views are considered out of place please say so, and I shall leave this forum.

Sincerely,

John T

John,
From the same background as you, I heartily concur!
Mike

 

[Wraith]

Agree with Mike.
That's 2 out of your 12 for a 'Not Guilty' verdict.

Simon

 

[John Tremelling]

I do like your signature quote Mike, "We've built a world safe for fools, and are overrun by them".

Yours? May I repeat it, or will you sue me?

My favourite quote being “If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it” Albert Einstein.

I shall now view other threads about 'Toy Soldiers, after all, that is what I joined this forum for.

John T

 

[Igor]

I do not like direct copying of old soldiers
Let they remain as is.
Now there are no problems to make a new figure in any style.
Moreover it is possible to make a figure in style of any company.
Besides it became now difficult to define authorship of figures:
the uniform, pose... undertake from the same sources

 

[theBaron]

Hi, John, I don't think you ruffled anyone's feathers. I just wanted to provide clarity about the distinction between the morality and any specific laws.

Prost!
Brad