Casting figs to englarge dioramas (1 Viewer)

[TomB]

Have been down the track of casting copies to bulk up dio's and for private use......How about.....casting ..non copy write figs ,,,to bulk up dio's...... example....commission a fig yourself (whatever required) ....nothing fancy as long as it fits in with your other figures and lack of expert detail etc would not be noticed amongst a group of similar soldiers .....the original figure is yours to cast and make as many copies as you want and to alter anyway you choose....Now for the hard part.....I am sure there would be many arguments against this idea....okay ...you would be taking business away from the "Big Boys' by enlarging your dio by ...say...10 figures....at a cost of a few hundred dollars compared to apprrox 600 to 700 dollars (you could share costs with your mates)....I could think of more...but the fun part of this forum is being corrected and shown the error's of one's ways by the more informed and serious thinking members of Treefrog......just a thought.....TomB

 

[Mitch]

Why bother looking around for figures without copyright is there any?? the exercise seem futile to me in the depth you concieve. Why not just get on design your own figure cast it and add to your collection? Then you could sell them and make money that you seem to want to save on official figures to buy more.

Seems that the scenarios you design all revolve around stealing someone elses creativity whichever way you try and dress it up.

I don't really care for the last comments which, were rather unecessary but, you do throw them in a lot to your posts
Mitch

 

[Martin Tabony]

If you commision someone to make a master figure for you, then you would be the copyright holder. One warning though be sure to go to a reputable sculptor. I remember one instance where a small company started up with figures they had commisioned, every one of the horses were obviously castings of Historex plastic figures, so although they hadn't personaly recast they were unwittingly breaching copyright and lst all of their investment. I'm sure you could easily find a sculptor though.

Martin

 

[jager7080]

Have been down the track of casting copies to bulk up dio's and for private use......How about.....casting ..non copy write figs ,,,to bulk up dio's...... example....commission a fig yourself (whatever required) ....nothing fancy as long as it fits in with your other figures and lack of expert detail etc would not be noticed amongst a group of similar soldiers .....the original figure is yours to cast and make as many copies as you want and to alter anyway you choose....Now for the hard part.....I am sure there would be many arguments against this idea....okay ...you would be taking business away from the "Big Boys' by enlarging your dio by ...say...10 figures....at a cost of a few hundred dollars compared to apprrox 600 to 700 dollars (you could share costs with your mates)....I could think of more...but the fun part of this forum is being corrected and shown the error's of one's ways by the more informed and serious thinking members of Treefrog......just a thought.....TomB

Tom ,

I have seen pictures of your sculpts , they are quite good...So , I am wondering why you are not just willing to do your own sculpts to castings ?

Joe

 

[theBaron]

Are you looking for figures for your own dioramas? Don't commission anyone, buy yourself some molds from Prins August and modify the castings. Many of us already do, and you can also find a lot of figures on the secondary market, which were cast from Prins August molds.

Prost!
Brad

 

[TomB]

Why bother looking around for figures without copyright is there any?? the exercise seem futile to me in the depth you concieve. Why not just get on design your own figure cast it and add to your collection? Then you could sell them and make money that you seem to want to save on official figures to buy more.

Seems that the scenarios you design all revolve around stealing someone elses creativity whichever way you try and dress it up.

I don't really care for the last comments which, were rather unecessary but, you do throw them in a lot to your posts
Mitch

Is a ww2 soldier the copywrite property of the first firm who made that figure ?...If I make a figure based on a photo of a WW2 soldier...using the euipt..wpn etc...that everyone and their dog has already made their own version off... an .uncountable amount of times... that is stealing? ...I cannot make my own figure of a W!! soldier because someone else has made one...if I do I am stealing someone's Else's Work....therefore the first person to make a WW2 soldier is the only one entitled to make that figure.....anyone else is copying.....I dont follow you.......I appear ..... to upset you Mitch. ......fair enough.....I can see where you are coming from most times but this time I dont.......I have seen very early models of the ALH.....I knew someone since departed who was casting and selling ALH...long before K&C marketed their version ( matter of fact....he hosted a private dinner with the K&C bloke as guest not long before he died ).....who is stealing someone's else's creativity ?......I was making plasticine models of the ALH when I was at school...my uncle was ALH....I am 76...you work it out......I have spent 6 yrs and 90 days on active service for my country.....I think I should be allowed to make figures of the uniform I wore proudly over a twenty year period period. withiout " stealing someone else creativity "...Hey...I aint angry mate....I aint sworn yet...cheers TomB

 

[TomB]

Are you looking for figures for your own dioramas? Don't commission anyone, buy yourself some molds from Prins August and modify the castings. Many of us already do, and you can also find a lot of figures on the secondary market, which were cast from Prins August molds.

Prost!
Brad

Brad...I make my own figures...I dont cast...dont know how....but I dont see why you need to spend heaps to bulk up a dio when you can legally obtain your own fig and use that....Tomb

 

[TomB]

Tom ,

I have seen pictures of your sculpts , they are quite good...So , I am wondering why you are not just willing to do your own sculpts to castings ?

Joe

Jag......I dont cast...so if I do a dio...ALH....I have to make every soldier...every horse...every wpn.......keeps me busy.....what I am suggesting is for the ordinary collector who would like to bulk up his dio without having to pay a fortune.....have whatever fig made....for himself...and cast away happily without being accused of stealing etc...TomB

 

[TomB]

If you commision someone to make a master figure for you, then you would be the copyright holder. One warning though be sure to go to a reputable sculptor. I remember one instance where a small company started up with figures they had commisioned, every one of the horses were obviously castings of Historex plastic figures, so although they hadn't personaly recast they were unwittingly breaching copyright and lst all of their investment. I'm sure you could easily find a sculptor though.

Martin

Good point Martin......something I have noticed...horse's....the same horse is used...X amount of times....by X amount of different sculptures and firms.....same with wpns.....some model horse's seem... to my eye... to be one and the same for any amount of different riders.....I presume the sculpt does the figure but use's horse made by someone else and likewise with wpn...or...am I wrong and the sculpture does the whole lot himself ?.....or put another way....does the bloke who makes the Tank...also make the crew and tank rider's....OR...am I seeing things that aint there ?........TomB

 

[The Military Workshop]

Is a ww2 soldier the copywrite property of the first firm who made that figure ?...If I make a figure based on a photo of a WW2 soldier...using the euipt..wpn etc...that everyone and their dog has already made their own version off... an .uncountable amount of times... that is stealing? ...I cannot make my own figure of a W!! soldier because someone else has made one...if I do I am stealing someone's Else's Work....therefore the first person to make a WW2 soldier is the only one entitled to make that figure.....anyone else is copying.....I dont follow you.......I appear ..... to upset you Mitch. ......fair enough.....I can see where you are coming from most times but this time I dont.......I have seen very early models of the ALH.....I knew someone since departed who was casting and selling ALH...long before K&C marketed their version ( matter of fact....he hosted a private dinner with the K&C bloke as guest not long before he died ).....who is stealing someone's else's creativity ?......I was making plasticine models of the ALH when I was at school...my uncle was ALH....I am 76...you work it out......I have spent 6 yrs and 90 days on active service for my country.....I think I should be allowed to make figures of the uniform I wore proudly over a twenty year period period. withiout " stealing someone else creativity "...Hey...I aint angry mate....I aint sworn yet...cheers TomB

Tom,
I would have to disagree with your comments about K&C ALH and your obvious reference to those made by Craig Pearce under his Wilson Edward brand.

It is true that WE created LH figures before K&C did. To make the comment about "who is stealing someone's else's creativity" is not correct if you are comparing WE with K&C. I previously stocked WE and there were significant differences in size, style and detail to K&C AL's. All K&C figures are clearly unique sculpts and in my opinion your comparison could equally relate to every historical period (ie. ACW, Naps etc). Based on your own argument if you were making ALH at school does that mean Craig was stealing your creativity years later ? Clearly not as the only similarity was the subject matter. You will see many brands have similar subjects. For example four brands curently have 95th Rifles figures and they would have standing firing figures. However they are all different in size and style of sculpt.

You may be interested to know that two years before Andy of K&C met Craig he visited the Australian War Memorial with myself, OzDigger and Northgatewoods (Howard) and saw the Lighthorse diorama and displays there as well as bought up a bunch of relevant books for reference. Lots of photos were also taken. He has also had many ideas for AL figure poses forwarded to him over the last three years.

As regards the dinner with Andy which Craig attended last year I think you will find it was Howard who arranged it. I know Andy was impressed with Craig's range and gave him some suggestions. Craig also collected all the K&C AL series.

Some K&C figures and some from other brands are known to have been based on certain photographs. There is nothing to stop you scultping your own figure based on the same photo.

In my opinion and apparently those of others expressed in your previous similar thread it would be wrong to copy/cast a K&C figure and produce multiples even just for your own use. As the Baron/Brad said there are companies that produce castings but I am guessing the problem is none are producing ALH or other Australian subjects which is your area of interest.

I have not seen anybody say you can not make figures of the uniform you served in and you are free to sculpt any figures you like. Since you say you dont cast I am not sure how else you could bulk up your dios.

I think you should look into casting some of your own figures as that seems to solve the problem. If you are near Obee (John) he might be able to get you started.

All the best with your sculpting and painting. With 31st Oct coming I suspect we might see some new threads on Lighthorse any day now{sm4}.

Regards
Brett

 

[theBaron]

Brad...I make my own figures...I dont cast...dont know how....but I dont see why you need to spend heaps to bulk up a dio when you can legally obtain your own fig and use that....Tomb

Tom, my line of questioning is heading towards the point that you should learn to make your own molds, which is very easy, and cast your own from your own masters, rather than to pay someone to do it for you. If you're not interested in making molds from your own masters, the next most cost-effective alternatives are to make your master, which you already do, but have someone make the molds, or to buy commercially available molds, eg, Prins August, cast those figures, and modify them as required for your diorama.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Mitch]

I am not upset at all and, I cannot for the life of me see what you having served in whatever uniform has to do with it? does that mean because you served you have licence to do whatever you wish as a right?? In return I cannot see where your coming from with this. It does not serve as a cart blanch for using someone else's work. I cannot, see the reasoning behind the attempts to go down the road of asking all of these questions when they are the same and skirting around illegal activity. If you copy a figure from a picture of a WWI WWII soldier then in some way I am sure you are infringing copyright in some technical sense but, that's different to what you seem to be saying here. If you make your own figures from the sources you say and want to pad out a dio then make a mold and do it. It does not have to be metal it could be any medium you choose.

I answered what I thought from your post no more no less. But, yes if a manufacturer makes a figure and its copyrighted only they can use it unless, you have their express authority. You have posted some of your work which you could expand on through casts but, what if someone takes your work and begins to produce multiples in metal and gives you the two fingers? Bet you would be peeved? You should copyright your work and begin production or, copy what you do and pad out yours and your mates dio's. As the little Meerkat says ''simples''
Mitch

Is a ww2 soldier the copywrite property of the first firm who made that figure ?...If I make a figure based on a photo of a WW2 soldier...using the euipt..wpn etc...that everyone and their dog has already made their own version off... an .uncountable amount of times... that is stealing? ...I cannot make my own figure of a W!! soldier because someone else has made one...if I do I am stealing someone's Else's Work....therefore the first person to make a WW2 soldier is the only one entitled to make that figure.....anyone else is copying.....I dont follow you.......I appear ..... to upset you Mitch. ......fair enough.....I can see where you are coming from most times but this time I dont.......I have seen very early models of the ALH.....I knew someone since departed who was casting and selling ALH...long before K&C marketed their version ( matter of fact....he hosted a private dinner with the K&C bloke as guest not long before he died ).....who is stealing someone's else's creativity ?......I was making plasticine models of the ALH when I was at school...my uncle was ALH....I am 76...you work it out......I have spent 6 yrs and 90 days on active service for my country.....I think I should be allowed to make figures of the uniform I wore proudly over a twenty year period period. withiout " stealing someone else creativity "...Hey...I aint angry mate....I aint sworn yet...cheers TomB

 

[TomB]

Tom, my line of questioning is heading towards the point that you should learn to make your own molds, which is very easy, and cast your own from your own masters, rather than to pay someone to do it for you. If you're not interested in making molds from your own masters, the next most cost-effective alternatives are to make your master, which you already do, but have someone make the molds, or to buy commercially available molds, eg, Prins August, cast those figures, and modify them as required for your diorama.

Prost!
Brad

Thanks for the advice.....I have tried with plasticine and resin...casting that is....sort of works....you destroy the mold as you get to the figure...works well on the round bits though.... I am not really interested in casting ...maybe look for someone to make a mold one day just too see what a figure of mine would look like in metal.....but to be totally honest...I like the sculpey because it wont melt..corrode,,etc and is totally maintenance free.....Prins August ..sounds very interesting and would work to bulk up a diorama without the expense of mainline figures....less costly figures that are absorbed into the mass and make up a well populated diorama......I think my idea has been misread by some...thank you for the post...TomB

 

[TomB]

I am not upset at all and, I cannot for the life of me see what you having served in whatever uniform has to do with it? does that mean because you served you have licence to do whatever you wish as a right?? In return I cannot see where your coming from with this. It does not serve as a cart blanch for using someone else's work. I cannot, see the reasoning behind the attempts to go down the road of asking all of these questions when they are the same and skirting around illegal activity. If you copy a figure from a picture of a WWI WWII soldier then in some way I am sure you are infringing copyright in some technical sense but, that's different to what you seem to be saying here. If you make your own figures from the sources you say and want to pad out a dio then make a mold and do it. It does not have to be metal it could be any medium you choose.

I answered what I thought from your post no more no less. But, yes if a manufacturer makes a figure and its copyrighted only they can use it unless, you have their express authority. You have posted some of your work which you could expand on through casts but, what if someone takes your work and begins to produce multiples in metal and gives you the two fingers? Bet you would be peeved? You should copyright your work and begin production or, copy what you do and pad out yours and your mates dio's. As the little Meerkat says ''simples''
Mitch

Mitch...we seem to be going around in circle's.....I cannot understand your view on copywrite.....or for that matter copywrite itself...." If a manufacturer makes a figure and it is copyrighted...only they can use it..."...I can understand that statement.... IF applied to ....Micky Mouse or to the many fantasy figures I have viewed on the net,,,,,stuff like that.....,I cannot understand it as applied to a common WW11 soldier....How can one manufacturer have copywrite on WW11 figures over everyone else?...the ALH for example...who has the copywrite for them.....I made them out of plasticine when I was at school...can I claim copywrite for them ?.......As the little Meerkat says "Simples".....simple to you maybe..... reference copywrite my figures....good advice...but if someone wanted to copy them they are welcome.. I would probably make the figures for them...( not being sarcastic)....anyway...from what I understand ...under Aust copywrite law.....they are automatically copywrited when I make them....all I need to do is show proof they are my work.......Opps !.....we could start an argument again from square one on that ......you are entitled to your opinion,,,as I am to mine.....be a dull world if everyone thought the same......Though it would be a bloody site more peaceful.........TomB

 

[jac28]

I've been following this thread with some interest. This is my take on the question of copyrighting figures...

Let's say 10 different sculptors create a WWII GI, standing, firing.. A common enough pose.. and each sculptor uses the same list of equipment, clothing, etc. to put on the figure. You will get 10 different sculpts.. they will be similar as they are all standing, firing, WWII US GIs with the same equipment, etc. But they will vary (my guess is widely) in terms of style, level of detail, size, etc. They have each created a unique figure... Each of them own the copyright to their own sculpt.. If I come along and pick one the sculpts and make a casting of that exact sculpt to make a bunch of figures - then I have infringed on that particular sculptor's copyright.

Regardless of whether or not that sculptor chooses to pursue legal action, you have illegally copied his or her work.

Additionally, if I choose to sculpt my own WWII US GI with same equipment, then it's no problem. It's my own creation, so I have not infringed upon anyone's copyright.

That's my understanding...

Regards,

Jim

 

[TomB]

Tom,
I would have to disagree with your comments about K&C ALH and your obvious reference to those made by Craig Pearce under his Wilson Edward brand.

It is true that WE created LH figures before K&C did. To make the comment about "who is stealing someone's else's creativity" is not correct if you are comparing WE with K&C. I previously stocked WE and there were significant differences in size, style and detail to K&C AL's. All K&C figures are clearly unique sculpts and in my opinion your comparison could equally relate to every historical period (ie. ACW, Naps etc). Based on your own argument if you were making ALH at school does that mean Craig was stealing your creativity years later ? Clearly not as the only similarity was the subject matter. You will see many brands have similar subjects. For example four brands curently have 95th Rifles figures and they would have standing firing figures. However they are all different in size and style of sculpt.

You may be interested to know that two years before Andy of K&C met Craig he visited the Australian War Memorial with myself, OzDigger and Northgatewoods (Howard) and saw the Lighthorse diorama and displays there as well as bought up a bunch of relevant books for reference. Lots of photos were also taken. He has also had many ideas for AL figure poses forwarded to him over the last three years.

As regards the dinner with Andy which Craig attended last year I think you will find it was Howard who arranged it. I know Andy was impressed with Craig's range and gave him some suggestions. Craig also collected all the K&C AL series.

Some K&C figures and some from other brands are known to have been based on certain photographs. There is nothing to stop you scultping your own figure based on the same photo.

In my opinion and apparently those of others expressed in your previous similar thread it would be wrong to copy/cast a K&C figure and produce multiples even just for your own use. As the Baron/Brad said there are companies that produce castings but I am guessing the problem is none are producing ALH or other Australian subjects which is your area of interest.

I have not seen anybody say you can not make figures of the uniform you served in and you are free to sculpt any figures you like. Since you say you dont cast I am not sure how else you could bulk up your dios.

I think you should look into casting some of your own figures as that seems to solve the problem. If you are near Obee (John) he might be able to get you started.

All the best with your sculpting and painting. With 31st Oct coming I suspect we might see some new threads on Lighthorse any day now{sm4}.

Regards
Brett

Brett.....I did not mention.... by name.... WETS or Craig,,I have a tremendous respect for Craig.....and UN-intentionally have dragged him into it... .I used the ALH because of the number of people who have produced and sold ALH....I was not picking on K&C.....K&C are just the most recent firm producing ALH ....someone suggested that if you make a figure...any fig to bulk up a diorama ...you are stealing someones Else's idea.....I used the ALH as a counter ....other people were using other people's idea's...were they stealing them ???? .......the whole thing has been blown out of proportion.....I can understand you defending Andy...and rightly so.....I was not having a go at Andy...he has done the ALH proud....(though I do like Craigs ALH better).....hope this clears up any misunderstandings that I am having a go at K&C or any other firm... ...sometimes some people seem to think the whole of WW11 is copywritted and if you make a WW!! figure...you are infringing someone's copywrite....or stealing idea's......I am confused...TomB

 

[TomB]

I've been following this thread with some interest. This is my take on the question of copyrighting figures...

Let's say 10 different sculptors create a WWII GI, standing, firing.. A common enough pose.. and each sculptor uses the same list of equipment, clothing, etc. to put on the figure. You will get 10 different sculpts.. they will be similar as they are all standing, firing, WWII US GIs with the same equipment, etc. But they will vary (my guess is widely) in terms of style, level of detail, size, etc. They have each created a unique figure... Each of them own the copyright to their own sculpt.. If I come along and pick one the sculpts and make a casting of that exact sculpt to make a bunch of figures - then I have infringed on that particular sculptor's copyright.

Regardless of whether or not that sculptor chooses to pursue legal action, you have illegally copied his or her work.

Additionally, if I choose to sculpt my own WWII US GI with same equipment, then it's no problem. It's my own creation, so I have not infringed upon anyone's copyright.

That's my understanding...

Regards,

Jim

Jim..agree...I do not see how it is stealing someone's idea to sculpt any WW11 figure...Army..Navy.. Air Force or Marines.....TomB

 

[jager7080]

Mitch...we seem to be going around in circle's.....I cannot understand your view on copywrite.....or for that matter copywrite itself...." If a manufacturer makes a figure and it is copyrighted...only they can use it..."...I can understand that statement.... IF applied to ....Micky Mouse or to the many fantasy figures I have viewed on the net,,,,,stuff like that.....,I cannot understand it as applied to a common WW11 soldier....How can one manufacturer have copywrite on WW11 figures over everyone else?...the ALH for example...who has the copywrite for them.....I made them out of plasticine when I was at school...can I claim copywrite for them ?.......As the little Meerkat says "Simples".....simple to you maybe..... reference copywrite my figures....good advice...but if someone wanted to copy them they are welcome.. I would probably make the figures for them...( not being sarcastic)....anyway...from what I understand ...under Aust copywrite law.....they are automatically copywrited when I make them....all I need to do is show proof they are my work.......Opps !.....we could start an argument again from square one on that ......you are entitled to your opinion,,,as I am to mine.....be a dull world if everyone thought the same......Though it would be a bloody site more peaceful.........TomB

Tom ,

From what i am reading from you , i think you misunderstand what is being said...If say for example you wanted to create a WW2 British Soldier...You can create a sculpt & mold & it is your creation...Nobody has a copyright over creating/sculpting a British WW2 soldier...What is being said is that you cannot take some other manufactors figure & DIRECTLY copy it...You said you used to make ALH in school as a kid , if somebody say stole your sculpt & manufactored them , they would being stealing your work...
I must say Tom , before i started reading your posts i never paid much attention to sculpting or casting...You are causing alot of interest in sculpting & casting threads as of late...
I geuss what my question to you is...You have been sculpting since you were a kid & as i said before you are quite good at it...IMO sculpting is the hardest part of the creation process , not that i have ever sculpted or casted before...I think you should try casting with some advice from some of the members who cast on this site such as Brad who has already been offering you advise you should not have a problem...

Joe

 

[Mitch]

Tom...

Certainly is a merry-go-round but, you have started the circular issue I just jumped on and that's what the forum is about to discuss things. Why do you seem to find it so hard to see what is being said? In your response to me you said you see how copying directly a figure is wrong of say K&C so, your halfway there. Its exactly the same point with the fantasy figures and the mickey mouse you raised and, the common WWII figure. Its someone else's work

Obviously, a theme of say brit commando's or the ALH will have similarities because of weapons and uniforms etc but, each manufacturer or maker will have his/her own little nuances that make them unique to that person and, that's what is being stolen if they are copied by someone these nuances, are their creativity.

Its certainly not, and again, you feel the need to mention certain points of an inflammatory nature that may happen going to cause an argument. we are simply discussing the subject matter that you have raised.

With respect you really are going around the doors trying to find a way to make or, seemingly make copying figures from pre released figures legal and, its just not able to be made so.

How close one sales to the wind when designing figures is up to the individuals ability and integrity its easy to know in ones own mind if they have stepped to far and used too much and, that's what I meant about creativity. the more creative I suppose the less likely one is to steal someone else's work. Sure, be inspired by it but, then after that do ones own thing.

WWII is not copyrighted and you are free to replicate images all day long but, they have to be fresh ideas not derived from pre existing work in the market
Mitch

 

[TomB]

Tom...

Certainly is a merry-go-round but, you have started the circular issue I just jumped on and that's what the forum is about to discuss things. Why do you seem to find it so hard to see what is being said? In your response to me you said you see how copying directly a figure is wrong of say K&C so, your halfway there. Its exactly the same point with the fantasy figures and the mickey mouse you raised and, the common WWII figure. Its someone else's work

Obviously, a theme of say brit commando's or the ALH will have similarities because of weapons and uniforms etc but, each manufacturer or maker will have his/her own little nuances that make them unique to that person and, that's what is being stolen if they are copied by someone these nuances, are their creativity.

Its certainly not, and again, you feel the need to mention certain points of an inflammatory nature that may happen going to cause an argument. we are simply discussing the subject matter that you have raised.

With respect you really are going around the doors trying to find a way to make or, seemingly make copying figures from pre released figures legal and, its just not able to be made so.

How close one sales to the wind when designing figures is up to the individuals ability and integrity its easy to know in ones own mind if they have stepped to far and used too much and, that's what I meant about creativity. the more creative I suppose the less likely one is to steal someone else's work. Sure, be inspired by it but, then after that do ones own thing.

WWII is not copyrighted and you are free to replicate images all day long but, they have to be fresh ideas not derived from pre existing work in the market
Mitch

The circle continues......WW11 is not copyrighted...and you are free to replicate all day long...but....they have to be fresh idea's....not derived from pre existing work in the market....RightO.......fine......I can make WW11 figures.....but I cannot cast copies of other people'e work.....fine...I know that.......where did I say make a copy of X and use it to bulk up your diorama ?........not in the thread we are discussing......I think I suggested ...commission a figure yourself....nothing fancy...as long as it fits in with the other figures....etc etc......how does this make me the Anti-Christ of TS collectors ?....TomB.