Check out NEW Bulge stuff! (2 Viewers)

[Kurt]

That 105 really blows away the howitzer as does this new halftrack compared to the old one. I wasn't too crazy about last years Bulge releases ,except for that German Medics Set & King Tiger, but this year I'm interested in all the American items plus the Pakwagen and Funkytownwagen. I hope Santa's in a good mood this year.

 

[forlornhoper]

Phantom Warrior,i have had this debate with others for years and my view remains the same,we do not know with any certainty what armour and vehicles the germans had at their disposal after Normandy and Bagration,so much of their armoury were lost and damaged by late 1944,in defence of the Reich Any and all available resourses were put into the field regardless of base coat and or camo but many of us read books which regards the info within to be accurate,then we read books that dispute the info we have just read.My take on this subject is to be open minded, unless we were there,we can never be sure our info is correct,even photographic evidence can and has been proved incorrect.

 

[Cyber Field Marshall]

Phantom and Tullock both clearly illustrate just how interesting history is! Their knowledge is terrific. I agree with Forlornhoper however that when it comes to history its like philosophy, " What do we really know?" With that in mind these historical debates are interesting but ultimately solve nothing. I don't believe K&C's research is "sloppy", I believe they are deliberately making generic vehicles to be used in a greater variety of campaigns. I think the K&C marketing even suggests that often their vehicles are only composites that could be used in any winter campaign not just the Bulge. With that in mind the vehicles #s and unit designations etc don't bother me if not "historically accurate". To me they only serve to add a little more interest and realism on already spectacular models. They certainly don't detract from the overall appeal of the vehicle to me. However I will say a thank you to our resident TREEFROG historians for keeping us and manufacturers aware of these issues.

 

[Jagdpanther]

These new Americans are definitely on my list! Especially the 105...

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Phantom Warrior...

Have to disagree on this one.The jagdpanzers issued to the attacking Panzer Divisions in the Ardennes were factory fresh and delivered 'en masse'.Divisions such as 1SS 2SS 9SS 12SS Lehr 9th and 116 all recieved 21 new vehicles in the late Autumn/early Winter period.Regarding the jagdpanzer,what's with the 116 number?This would denote the 6th vehicle of the 1st Platoon of the 1st Company.Platoons were only issued 5 vehicles,so again sloppy research.
As for the Steyr....all German softskin vehicles were ordered to change to dunkelgelb on 18 02 43.There were no exceptions,especially nearly two years later.
As for late war vehicles being issued in grey.It just didn't happen.It is an urban myth.
Another gripe I have is with all the white camo on the German vehicles and the white camo German uniforms.Very,very limited indeed.If the K&C designers had checked Ardennes film footage and photos carefully they would have seen virtually none,especially in the initial attacks.

Phantom Warrior,i have had this debate with others for years and my view remains the same,we do not know with any certainty what armour and vehicles the germans had at their disposal after Normandy and Bagration,so much of their armoury were lost and damaged by late 1944,in defence of the Reich Any and all available resourses were put into the field regardless of base coat and or camo but many of us read books which regards the info within to be accurate,then we read books that dispute the info we have just read.My take on this subject is to be open minded, unless we were there,we can never be sure our info is correct,even photographic evidence can and has been proved incorrect.

The weight of evidence is certainly on the side of your arguments Tullock - all good points, but as Forlornhoper points out, there are lots of exceptions. I am positive there were Jagdpanzer IVs with zimmerit. It is also likely that an old grey Kraftwaggon was still running 2 years after dunkelgelb was the base colour - they tended not to repaint vehicles just to change the base colour. I have the most trouble with the grey 251 Ausf D. I have read where factories sometimes had to use paint on hand late in the war. I don't know if it is an urban myth or not. I do strongly agree the underlying colours should have been 2 or 3 colour camo and that 116 is not a good number.

Terry

 

[tullock]

Phantom Warrior,i have had this debate with others for years and my view remains the same,we do not know with any certainty what armour and vehicles the germans had at their disposal after Normandy and Bagration,so much of their armoury were lost and damaged by late 1944,in defence of the Reich Any and all available resourses were put into the field regardless of base coat and or camo but many of us read books which regards the info within to be accurate,then we read books that dispute the info we have just read.My take on this subject is to be open minded, unless we were there,we can never be sure our info is correct,even photographic evidence can and has been proved incorrect.

I know with absolute certainty exactly what the Germans had as regards to armoured vehicles,softskins,weapons etc.Each Division and Divisional sub-unit forwarded highly detailed strength documents (Meldung) to higher HQ every month of the war.These documents are still in existence in the archives in Frieburg and in my own extensive collection.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I know with absolute certainty exactly what the Germans had as regards to armoured vehicles,softskins,weapons etc.Each Division and Divisional sub-unit forwarded highly detailed strength documents (Meldung) to higher HQ every month of the war.These documents are still in existence in the archives in Frieburg and in my own extensive collection.

Excellent data source for AFV and soft skin vehicle types. But even the Meldung didn't list the camo of each vehicle.

Terry

 

[tullock]

Excellent data source for AFV and soft skin vehicle types. But even the Meldung didn't list the camo of each vehicle.

Terry

Obviously I was referring to vehicle types with regards to the Meldung.Many contemporary publications,such as the excellent 'Duel in the Mist', give detailed data on late war camo,especially the different 'factory applied' camo schemes.It seems each factory had their own little idiosyncrasies.
Jeff

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Obviously I was referring to vehicle types with regards to the Meldung.Many contemporary publications,such as the excellent 'Duel in the Mist', give detailed data on late war camo,especially the different 'factory applied' camo schemes.It seems each factory had their own little idiosyncrasies.
Jeff

Yes, I know you were referring to only vehicle types using the Meldung, but we were discussing camo colours of the 251, and as you say, each factory had their own little idiosyncrasies and I did hear stories of paint shortages for given colours at various times. So nothing is certain regarding camo in late war Germany. And as Cyber Field Marshall says, Andy does use generic markings on some of the vehicles, and some he probably just makes up He never has claimed historical accuracy for the markings and designations on all of his vehicles.

Terry

 

[arnhem44mad]

Wow!

That's freaking amazing!

Halftrack and capptured German set are a must have!

Maybe the cannan and motorbike too!

 

[tullock]

Yes, I know you were referring to only vehicle types using the Meldung, but we were discussing camo colours of the 251, and as you say, each factory had their own little idiosyncrasies and I did hear stories of paint shortages for given colours at various times. So nothing is certain regarding camo in late war Germany. And as Cyber Field Marshall says, Andy does use generic markings on some of the vehicles, and some he probably just makes up He never has claimed historical accuracy for the markings and designations on all of his vehicles.

Terry

The 'little idiosyncrasies' I was referring to regard the way that the two and three tone camo schemes were applied,not what colours were used.Documents show clearly that grey was not used in 44/45.Freiburg documentation show exactly how many litres of paint were delivered to each factory,right up until the end of the war.
Jeff

 

[forlornhoper]

Tullock

The jagdpanzers issued to the attacking Panzer Divisions in the Ardennes were factory fresh and delivered 'en masse'.Divisions such as 1SS 2SS 9SS 12SS Lehr 9th and 116 all recieved 21 new vehicles in the late Autumn/early Winter period.
As for late war vehicles being issued in grey.It just didn't happen.It is an urban myth.

Your quote of figures makes interesting reading but how can we be sure the info quoted is correct? Are you saying the units in your quote had no jagdpanzers in their existing armour stocks prior to the ardennes ?Even if you could obtain an armour inventory of units committed in the ardennes,doesnt mean they will be actual,for many reasons, unless you were actually there and seen every piece of armour in stock and which ones seen actual combat,you cannot be certain of your info.We cannot be certain what armour was gathered for the offensive,so how can you ? The elite divisions you quoted were all a shadow of their former self and it is doubtful that their armoured regiments actually had their quota of armour visa vee their inventory,they didnt even have the necessary fuel for the movement of their tanks they had in service.As for your urban myth,re grey and other colours being used as base coat,where did that come from?

 

[maddadicus]

I am definitely getting the halftrack and de-icing it. Kinda wish I knew ahead of time if Andy planned on saving me the effort down the road..Michael

 

[Phantom Warrior]

The 'little idiosyncrasies' I was referring to regard the way that the two and three tone camo schemes were applied,not what colours were used.Documents show clearly that grey was not used in 44/45.Freiburg documentation show exactly how many litres of paint were delivered to each factory,right up until the end of the war.

I agree, grey was very unlikely to be used in 1944-1945 but lots of strange thinks happened in production late in the war. It would have been better to use 2 or 3 colour camo on the 251, and and I do agree grey is very unlikely, but I can't say it was impossible.

Terry

 

[tullock]

I agree, grey was very unlikely to be used in 1944-1945 but lots of strange thinks happened in production late in the war. It would have been better to use 2 or 3 colour camo on the 251, and and I do agree grey is very unlikely, but I can't say it was impossible.

Terry

Nice talking to you.I'm off to bed now as it's nearly midnight over here.
Jeff

 

[sammy719]

Finally!!!!!!!Andy told me awhile back stay tuned on the artillery pieces, I know I bring it up almost monthly but glad to see we are getting some much needed American artillery!!! the halftrack and all of this years bulge sets are winners, thanks Andy...Sammy

 

[forlornhoper]

Tullock,you can quote from archives all day long does not make the info contained within the archives accurate,on the other hand if the archival info makes you happy then good for you ,but i have been in the history game too long to just rely on archives for accuracy,especially late war german archives.I am the johnny on the spot type of historian,flaws an all,so unless you were there on the spot ,we should remain open minded to all possibilities however unlikely they may seem,we cannot seriously believe that as germany disintegrated people remained fully informed of the volume of paint being used throughout the reich and what colours were being applied to AFVs and softskins,the high command could not have known the actual number of men at arms,nevermind the actual number of vehicles available in such a fluid situation as a collapse of a system,so quoting military figures of the time as accurate is frankly misguided and clearly misrepresents the truer picture of the time.

 

[noli-poli]

Is the US Half Track M3A1 or M3A2? The ladder on the side looks like the Tamiya M3A2 which never came out of production.

Anyway, a great Christmas coming ahead. I just sent Santa my list for multiple orders (need to re-badge some HT's for the British Tommies of the 13/18 Hussars).

Here's what I'll be driving in 2010 (this model gets good gas mileage and very "green" too! I am sure it will pass California's stringent emission law!). With all the releases between Andy & Rick, i need to sell my cars to finance this addictive hobby.

BTW, is the MG guy removable?

Thanks ANDY

N-P

 

[Obee]

So being as you have seen that now Andy has said the artillery piece attaches to the half track and can be towed.

Andrew,

I do hope that the gun doesn't get dragged along behind the half track, because towing eye on the 105mm needs to rotates 180 deg for towing, because the current postion shown is the firing position, like it should be. I served on these gun in the RAA, so I have a deatiled knowledge of them, and from what I see, this looks like a great gun !!!

I do hope that the Vietnam era is revived by K&C and this gun can then be used ina firebase, but with tropical uniformed gunners. I'm glad I don't collect WW2, or I'd want a whole battery !!!!!

Well done Andy,

John

 

[binder001]

Wow...

I remember last year at Chicago Andy mentioned that he picked up a kit of a 105 howitzer and I was wondering what he was going to do with it.

I NEED the 105 and the crewmen! 1) That's a fantastic piece, 2) I've been bothering Andy for one for a long time and 3) I grew up around 105s. My dad was an officer in a National Guard field artillery battalion before he started moving up the ladder.

The halftrack looks to be a late M3A1. I agree that (unfortunately) Andy seems to have used the Tamiya M3A2 as a starting point. The M3A2 never entered production, BUT a number of features did show up in late M3A1s (like the rear stowage racks). I don't think the M3A1 ever had the side stowage rails (those aren't "ladders" they are racks for external stowage). The US needs an APC - I like the open top version best.

FYI - the proper towing vehicle for a US Army 105mm howitzer is the 2 1/2 ton 6X6 truck - specifically the CCKW352 "short wheelbase" version. Halftracks in late 1944 towed AT guns or cargo trailers.

I see SERIOUS wallet damage coming this winter!

Gary B.