China: how can this be legal?!?!? (1 Viewer)

[jazzeum]

I mean you can't take my sculpture, make a mold of it, cast it and sell it
Abe is not protected, but my version of Abe is

Correct.

On whether you can copyright a pose, I believe you could if it's not a common pose.

On another point, Walsingham asked what if a person copies a figure but intends to use it only for himself. Although that would constitute an infringement if the original figure was copyrighted, it's probably subject to the fair use exception.

 

[theBaron]

...On whether you can copyright a pose, I believe you could if it's not a common pose...

That makes me wonder if the distillers of Captain Morgan rum copyrighted their mascot's "trademark" pose, one foot resting on the treasure chest. They did film a commercial in which various people getting schnockered on Captain Morgan would strike the pose.

Prost!
Brad

 

[jazzeum]

The label would probably disclose that information.

 

[FirstLegion]

this is going over my head...I'm just missing it...

I just don't understand how anybody would know these are illegal black market knock offs...

except the manufacturer himself...

and not even sure if Matt or Andy could tell the difference...

in some cases coming in original manufacturer's box...

I'm confused...missing the telltale giveaways that Average Joe can spot...

they all seem like pretty good deals...

plus free shipping from China to US...

It's very easy to know when illegal products are being sold because we as MFR's know who has our products and who doesn't and know where those products were made. Every item from that seller all come from a single source which, as I understand it, no one does business with any longer (or they're foolish if they do). I suspect they are selling overruns, samples, etc... not necessarily producing new figures (though that's possible as well). They can sell them so cheaply because they have ZERO cost. They are in original boxes because extra boxes are provided to factories for drop testing etc...

Basically, if it comes from that seller in the case of First Legion, it's a stolen product, not an authorized/legitimate product. We joined EBAY's VERO program and had our products removed from that seller's ebay listings.

It's crazy, but you can't really stop them from doing it, all you can do is prevent them from getting to the market and depend on the individual collectors not to purchase them. Basically, it's no different than purchasing any stolen good. So sure it's a good deal, buying stolen/unauthorized goods usually is if your personal ethics has no trouble with it and you don't mind stealing (for lack of a better word) from whoever the rightful owner is. Sorry to put it that way as it does sound dramatic, but that's the reality.

Best,

Matt

 

[mikemiller1955]

It's very easy to know when illegal products are being sold because we as MFR's know who has our products and who doesn't and know where those products were made. Every item from that seller all come from a single source which, as I understand it, no one does business with any longer (or they're foolish if they do). I suspect they are selling overruns, samples, etc... not necessarily producing new figures (though that's possible as well). They can sell them so cheaply because they have ZERO cost. They are in original boxes because extra boxes are provided to factories for drop testing etc...

Basically, if it comes from that seller in the case of First Legion, it's a stolen product, not an authorized/legitimate product. We joined EBAY's VERO program and had our products removed from that seller's ebay listings.

It's crazy, but you can't really stop them from doing it, all you can do is prevent them from getting to the market and depend on the individual collectors not to purchase them. Basically, it's no different than purchasing any stolen good. So sure it's a good deal, buying stolen/unauthorized goods usually is if your personal ethics has no trouble with it and you don't mind stealing (for lack of a better word) from whoever the rightful owner is. Sorry to put it that way as it does sound dramatic, but that's the reality.

Best,

Matt

Matt...

appreciate your taking the time with the detailed reply...

I'm sure you know who your dealers are...
and I know you offer a public list of your authorized dealers on your website's resource page...

but there are literally 1,000's of FL figures on Ebay...
the vast majority of them being genuine authentic FL releases...
being sold by toy soldier collectors that want to sell them for one reason or another...

what about the "average guy"...how does he identify them as bogus...is there some telltale giveaway?

one sure way to spot them?

 

[jazzeum]

Mike,

There are only a handful of auctions (as opposed to buy it nows) on eBay for First Legion. The BINs come from authorized dealers.

Brad

 

[FirstLegion]

Matt...

appreciate your taking the time with the detailed reply...

I'm sure you know who your dealers are...
and I know you offer a public list of your authorized dealers on your website's resource page...

but there are literally 1,000's of FL figures on Ebay...
the vast majority of them being genuine authentic FL releases...
being sold by toy soldier collectors that want to sell them for one reason or another...

what about the "average guy"...how does he identify them as bogus...is there some telltale giveaway?

one sure way to spot them?

I understand that it can be much more difficult for a collector to identify this on their own, but generally speaking if it's FL being sold out of China as "new in box", it's illegal. If it's FL being sold out of pretty much anywhere else on the planet, it's most probably authorized product from a dealer or a collector. Plus, some common sense can factor in as well - if "new in box" products are being sold at less than retail prices, then it's not one of our authorized dealers and if it's a collector, well, then it's not new because it's already been purchased once. There is no absolute telltale that you will be able to recognize on your own, which is why we do what we can to prevent it and make folks aware of it.

 

[mikemiller1955]

I understand that it can be much more difficult for a collector to identify this on their own, but generally speaking if it's FL being sold out of China as "new in box", it's illegal. If it's FL being sold out of pretty much anywhere else on the planet, it's most probably authorized product from a dealer or a collector. Plus, some common sense can factor in as well - if "new in box" products are being sold at less than retail prices, then it's not one of our authorized dealers and if it's a collector, well, then it's not new because it's already been purchased once. There is no absolute telltale that you will be able to recognize on your own, which is why we do what we can to prevent it and make folks aware of it.

that is a very specific and detailed reply...which makes sense...how sad that it has boiled down to this...I think I understand that it's easy to get duped by these guys...best recommendation would be to buy from authorized dealers or direct from you...

I think someone earlier referred to the term...."over runs".....does that mean you contract for lets say 500 of a certain piece and they run off 525?

if so...why do they run off extras?

and if there are extras...should you buy them up if possible?

 

[Bill Moore]

My guess is that any over runs produced by the factory are designed to be used for any replacements or defects created during the MFG Process. Just my two cents worth!

 

[Toy Soldier Brigade]

When I was mainly a 1/6th action figure dealer, a certain model company would order say 2000 of an item like a German tunic from a factory. Then they would only make 1500 of an action figure and just leave the balance at the factory. And when I say factory I use the term loosely. A factory in China can be a family sitting on the floor of their house making these items. So if they have 500 that most likely weren't paid for they just sell them off. Most of the remaining action figure manufactuers now only make enough figures to fill their dealer preorders. If your a dealer and are missing or have a damaged peice your screwed. I am constantly contacted by dealers in China that want me to buy lot's of action figure gear. Say 200 German Helmets. I know where they originally came from.

I know of one 1/6th manufacturer who is a mom & pop business. He has a small factory in China and he always catches them using his patterns and materials to make extra product, which then ends up going out the back door to the secondary market.

Now the new favorite business model is to make a figure from say a DC movie and just give it a different name. IE. They make a figure of the "Flash" and call him the "Speedster". Then the manufacturer's doesn't have to pay licensing fees.

I hate to say it but the Chinese Government could care less. They are probably encouraging it.

 

[Desertkiwi]

There are obvious risks involved when using other 'parties' during the manufacturing of a product such as TS. Having a certain level of control over your intellectual property rights during this process is the key, but as Matt from FL outlines it's not an easy thing to manage and there are many pitfalls to negotiate, especially when much of the work is being done in a foreign country, with different laws and dare I say it a different way of doing business.

This 'control' and constant monitoring, costs time and money and of course adds to the over all cost of the final product.

No one likes rising prices, but when you consider the effort that goes into producing TS from scratch and transporting it without damage to the consumer then it gives you a better appreciation of this niche hobby and those who make it happen.

You'd have to be suspicious of cheap TS products being offered out of places like China, particularly if they look identical to other brands.

Everyone loves a good deal and sure there is nothing stopping you from buying them, but you should at least consider where these items have originated from.

It's a dirty business pinching someone else's 'property' and profiting from it at the best of times.

 

[King Tiger II]

Its already welll known that The reputation of Chinese peoples in counterfeiting stuff are #1 in the world. And nothing can be done about that.
They dont have any respect to those who have copyright on their products.

I see that everyday.

Just look at Lego vs Le Pin on Youtube.
No respect
Serge

 

[Vicknor]

It's a good job that no one here is using streaming sites, KODI, downloaded Microsoft Office, cheap DVDs from Asia (or elsewhere), let alone knock-off Photoshop (large number of users) and that all their office computers are all fully licenced with full paid up non-pirated software.

It's a problem yes but I can name half a dozen people from this site (some very prominent) who fall into the above categories, and I'm including myself in some old laptops, some of whom if they were to check their office software would blush.

I personally would not buy 'leftover' TS stuff, however the amateur dramatics from some regarding 'pirated' stuff is laughable.

 

[theBaron]

It's a good job that no one here is using streaming sites, KODI, downloaded Microsoft Office, cheap DVDs from Asia (or elsewhere), let alone knock-off Photoshop (large number of users) and that all their office computers are all fully licenced with full paid up non-pirated software.

It's a problem yes but I can name half a dozen people from this site (some very prominent) who fall into the above categories, and I'm including myself in some old laptops, some of whom if they were to check their office software would blush.

I personally would not buy 'leftover' TS stuff, however the amateur dramatics from some regarding 'pirated' stuff is laughable.

Please cite an example of any post in this thread rising to the level of "amateur dramatics".

 

[Vicknor]

Please cite an example of any post in this thread rising to the level of "amateur dramatics".

....

 

[Poppo]

Its already welll known that The reputation of Chinese peoples in counterfeiting stuff are #1 in the world.

I can tell you that number one in counterfeiting in the world are the neapolitans. When they start entering the toysoldier business copy, then the manufacturers will tremble.....

 

[King & Country]

I can tell you that number one in counterfeiting in the world are the neapolitans. When they start entering the toysoldier business copy, then the manufacturers will tremble.....

...And their ice cream is great too!!!
Andy.

 

[Desertkiwi]

It's a good job that no one here is using streaming sites, KODI, downloaded Microsoft Office, cheap DVDs from Asia (or elsewhere), let alone knock-off Photoshop (large number of users) and that all their office computers are all fully licenced with full paid up non-pirated software.

It's a problem yes but I can name half a dozen people from this site (some very prominent) who fall into the above categories, and I'm including myself in some old laptops, some of whom if they were to check their office software would blush.

I personally would not buy 'leftover' TS stuff, however the amateur dramatics from some regarding 'pirated' stuff is laughable.

Nothing like throwing a hand grenade in the room and running for the hills, dragging your pirated software with you.......{sm4}

 

[enricoquinto]

...And their ice cream is great too!!!
Andy.

...Sicilians can make the best ice cream and some terrific puppet, as you can see below, but they can't make toysoldiers!!!




Best regards

Enrico

 

[hotel3alpha]

All,

I sent a link to Andy last year about a guy in China selling replicas of K&C World War I warbirds...specifically the newer Albatrosses...the green ones. I was searching for some planes and boom these planes came up that were suspect. I don't remember if I got a response back from Andy or not, but I did send him the alert as a courtesy. I got this whole philosophy on the copy cat-ers of China, but won't delve into that here. But the jest of it is this: when a country or peoples fail to create and rely on other minds and talents from other countries or peoples to do the creating for them they become stunted in their intellectual growth as a society. Furthermore, they become beholden to other countries and peoples for technology and are extremely vulnerable to being hoodwinked. So, how do you stop a copy cat-er from cheating off your paper? Give him the wrong answers.

That's China's achilles heel.

So, we all need to contact ole Y-wierdo and tell him we need to order like 100 soldiers each because you are thinking about opening a Toy Soldier shop in your hometown and need a "manufacturer" that produces toy soldiers. Have him send you a "example" (to a PO BOX) piece and see if he can guarantee future orders of 100 plus figures in the future. In fact, you would like to order a 100 right now and "let me know when they are ready" so you can purchase them. Oh, and ask for a bulk rate too and get a side email address so we can cut ebay out of the loop while we are at it. Have him send pictures of the 100 soldiers he made and then when it is time to pay... give him a fake credit card number.

That will teach his dumb ***.

John from Texas

PS: I had a knucklehead on ebay copy my text of my written words on to his listing and call it his own. I followed the VeRO instructions on eBay and they took down his listing (with bids on it) for copy cat-ing my written work. So, if said manufacturers got a beef with ole Y-wierdo they can contact eBay and straighten him out by shutting ALL of his listings down.