Conte's Rome at War (5 Viewers)

I know you'll be happy to receive them Michael. Here's the Legionaries Attacking Set 1

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Very impressed with these figures , the dioramas and the photos. I ordered mine today. What is really amazong is how good they look even when enlarged on my screen. Most figures suffer and show their failings when displayed much larger than actual size but not these.{sm4}
 
Spent a little time featuring my axe wielding Barbarian taking on my newly arrived Romans one on one and shown in a different photo format. I agree with your take on the figures and I'm sure LordAnhausen you'll enjoy your new figures as much as I am enjoying mine. To be continue...The Lt.

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Why the "Conan the Barbarian" costumes. The "Germans" had figured out pants and shirts by then.

It seems you are always disputing Conte clothing choices and criticize as though you are an authority on all they have done incorrectly. I recall your finding their female sculpts too beautiful in the past.
I respectfully disagree with you and am buying the Conte Barbarians as I think they have done them more correctly than other manufacturers. As these Germans are my peeps, I feel the need to respond about my forefathers.[/I]
I have a copy of Commentaries by Julius Caesar and he makes a very clear reference to animal skins and nakedness when describing the Germans. Tacitus in his volume Germania, which i also own, also makes reference to the preponderance of animal skins and exposed skin and even mentions things such as antlers being worn. There is a very good but usually hard to get book called Costume or Dress in Anglo-Saxon England by Owen-Crocker which describes the Germans during Roman times and which contrasts the Germanics with the Celts and Saxons and such. He also makes clear the common view that animal skins and bare skin were the norm for the Germans but not others. As I recall he makes a key point that the Germans believed that in some talisman like way that they wore animal skins so as to inherit the powers of the beasts they had slain in addition to appearing more threatening.
I appreciate a toy soldiercompany taking the time to go to the contemporaneous accounts for their costuming decisions. Said differently, you say Conte got it wrong while Caesar and tacitus say they got it right. I think I'll defer to Caesar and Tacitus
 
It seems you are always disputing Conte clothing choices and criticize as though you are an authority on all they have done incorrectly. I recall your finding their female sculpts too beautiful in the past.
I respectfully disagree with you and am buying the Conte Barbarians as I think they have done them more correctly than other manufacturers. As these Germans are my peeps, I feel the need to respond about my forefathers.[/I]
I have a copy of Commentaries by Julius Caesar and he makes a very clear reference to animal skins and nakedness when describing the Germans. Tacitus in his volume Germania, which i also own, also makes reference to the preponderance of animal skins and exposed skin and even mentions things such as antlers being worn. There is a very good but usually hard to get book called Costume or Dress in Anglo-Saxon England by Owen-Crocker which describes the Germans during Roman times and which contrasts the Germanics with the Celts and Saxons and such. He also makes clear the common view that animal skins and bare skin were the norm for the Germans but not others. As I recall he makes a key point that the Germans believed that in some talisman like way that they wore animal skins so as to inherit the powers of the beasts they had slain in addition to appearing more threatening.
I appreciate a toy soldiercompany taking the time to go to the contemporaneous accounts for their costuming decisions. Said differently, you say Conte got it wrong while Caesar and tacitus say they got it right. I think I'll defer to Caesar and Tacitus

First off let me just say I really like Contes Romans and thank Lt. for displaying some terrific pictures of them. With that said I must counter the above argument seeing that the Romans that Conte have made are clearly not the troops that Caesar would have fought the Germans with. The armor is way off base for one. The lorica segmentata did not even make its 1st appearance until the early 1st century and wasn't fully utilized by all the soldiers until the mid to late first century. Seeing that Caesar was killed in 44BC this armor wasn't even around for almost another 50yrs. So I think its fair that Caesar shouldn't even be used in this scenario. With that said I have to agree with Scott on this one. By the time the lorica segementata was developed the Germans had established clothing but as you say Lord Anahausen they still utilized animal skins, antlers etc.... but probably in addition to clothing. As for Tacitus you have to keep in mind that he was a Roman so he is gonna describe the Germans in a barbarian fashion and be biased. I like to refer to Teutoburg forest in 9AD, at this battle most of the Germans were fully clothed.

With all this said these are toy soldiers and I like them. I think Conte went for the traditional barbarian look that we all are use to seeing in movies etc... and there is nothing wrong with that.
 
Great Caesars Ghost

I made no comment implying that the Roman armor was of a BC vintage nor did I in any way imply that these Romans were those of Julius Caesar's Legions. You've made that connection.

I provided 3 well known and highly respected references, 2 Ancient and one modern which clearly discuss animal skins, furs and bare skin. You've made the leap to disagree and shift a discussion of Germanic fur and bare skin to a red herring discussion of Roman armor and mighty Julius. Roman armor is a separate discussion.

The Roman references I made span a period of 1 1/2 centuries starting with Caesar and culminating with GERMANIA written by Tacitus which is reported as being written in 98 A.D.
By My reckoning a good 89 years AFTER 9AD and the cavortings of Arminius. There were a great variety of tribes and peoples which made up the so called Barbarians and while Arminius was highly "Romanized", other groups were undoubtedly less so. The fact that Tacitus was writing almost a century after your referenced campaign of 9 AD must be taken into account.
The three things you've said which I can agree with are (1) caesars legions would not have been armored like this, (2) the Romans were likely to embellish accounts and (3) people (including me ) like the lorica look for the Romans and the wild fur look for the Germans and for many of us suppose this has been fueled by the movies.
 
German Haberdashery

I just spent a few minutes looking at the various Conte German pics which they have sent me or which have been on their site in the past year and I should point out that quite a few of the Germans do have pants.
The Lt even pictured one charging with an ax overhead ( i really like the detail on the head of the ax) which was in the first grouping of product released. I even have seen a picture of one wearing some kind of scale armor (along with pants) who is carrying a flag and there is another guy charging with an animal skin on his head who has pants and another guy attacking with some kind of hammer overhead who has shirt and pants
so ye who fear a Germanic tribe completely without pants can stop fretting.

I think there were two or 3 others that were wearing more than furs but I can't find the photos .
 
Heres one which is listed as set 020
 

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Great Caesars Ghost

I made no comment implying that the Roman armor was of a BC vintage nor did I in any way imply that these Romans were those of Julius Caesar's Legions. You've made that connection.

You are correct when you say that you made no mention of the armor belonging to that of Julius Caesars legions however you used Julius Caesar as a reference to try and make your point about the Germans. You took information directly from Caesars writings to support the German figures portrayed by Conte. You and I know that if your looking to have a good source to support this then you need to find someone that fits within the time frame of the Romans that are depicted as well. Does it really make since for a 54AD Romans to go up against 55BC Germans, of course not. Its sorta like looking at how people dress now compared to how they dressed in the 50's. Its easy to tell the difference and like anything else things change over time. Your reference to Germans fighting bare skinned or with little to no clothing did happen but not so much with the Romans that are featured by Conte. Once again when it comes to Tacitus remember the old saying that "The winner writes the history books". Do you really think Tacitus is going to write that the Germans are a civilized people that have established themselves and can run a economy trade etc.. on par with Rome. Of course not, it benefits the emperor, rome and himself if he depicts the Germans as this Barbaric people. With that said Conte did release German figures that are appropriately dressed for a confrontation with Contes Romans. But we were addressing the 4 figures that Scott mentioned.
 
Re: German Haberdashery

The Lt even pictured one charging with an ax overhead ( i really like the detail on the head of the ax) which was in the first grouping of product released.

The figure with the axe is indeed a nice figure and fits nicely.

 
Spent a little time featuring my axe wielding Barbarian taking on my newly arrived Romans one on one and shown in a different photo format. I agree with your take on the figures and I'm sure LordAnhausen you'll enjoy your new figures as much as I am enjoying mine. To be continue...The Lt.

007-12_zpsfa43783c.jpg

Great picture Joe {bravo}}{bravo}}{bravo}}{bravo}}

Cheers mate

Martyn:)
 
Great picture Joe {bravo}}{bravo}}{bravo}}{bravo}}

Cheers mate

Martyn:)

Here's the photo Martyn I created the above picture with and agree Sahara the axe wieldig Barbarian fits in well and nicely done.


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Here's the photo Martyn I created the above picture with and agree Sahara the axe wieldig Barbarian fits in well and nicely done.


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Another winner Joe, this puts me in the mood to watch Spartacus that I recorded last night {bravo}}{bravo}}{bravo}}{bravo}}

Cheers mate

Martyn:)
 
It seems you are always disputing Conte clothing choices and criticize as though you are an authority on all they have done incorrectly. I recall your finding their female sculpts too beautiful in the past.
I respectfully disagree with you and am buying the Conte Barbarians as I think they have done them more correctly than other manufacturers. As these Germans are my peeps, I feel the need to respond about my forefathers.[/I]
I have a copy of Commentaries by Julius Caesar and he makes a very clear reference to animal skins and nakedness when describing the Germans. Tacitus in his volume Germania, which i also own, also makes reference to the preponderance of animal skins and exposed skin and even mentions things such as antlers being worn. There is a very good but usually hard to get book called Costume or Dress in Anglo-Saxon England by Owen-Crocker which describes the Germans during Roman times and which contrasts the Germanics with the Celts and Saxons and such. He also makes clear the common view that animal skins and bare skin were the norm for the Germans but not others. As I recall he makes a key point that the Germans believed that in some talisman like way that they wore animal skins so as to inherit the powers of the beasts they had slain in addition to appearing more threatening.
I appreciate a toy soldiercompany taking the time to go to the contemporaneous accounts for their costuming decisions. Said differently, you say Conte got it wrong while Caesar and tacitus say they got it right. I think I'll defer to Caesar and Tacitus


While I'm not a reader of the classics, I did search [FONT=arial, sans-serif]The Battle of the T[/FONT]eutoburg Forest, assuming that this is what Conte is producing, sampling modern interpretations of Germanic costume as interpreted by current model makers, war gamers, reenactors, and uniform plate artists. Trousers and shirts appear to be the overwhelming interpretations with bare chests and trousers next. We might take into consideration that Roman historians may propagandize their enemies as more "barbarian" than themselves. Also considering the liberties with the Barbarian Queen and other Hollywood female figures Conte makes, I was suspicious of the "Kull the Conqueror" gets ups.


Costume or Dress in Anglo-Saxon England by Owen-Crocker

http://www.amazon.com/Dress-Anglo-Saxon-England-Gale-Owen-Crocker/dp/184383572X
 
While I'm not a reader of the classics, I did search The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, assuming that this is what Conte is producing, sampling modern interpretations of Germanic costume as interpreted by current model makers, war gamers, reenactors, and uniform plate artists. Trousers and shirts appear to be the overwhelming interpretations with bare chests and trousers next. We might take into consideration that Roman historians may propagandize their enemies as more "barbarian" than themselves. Also considering the liberties with the Barbarian Queen and other Hollywood female figures Conte makes, I was suspicious of the "Kull the Conqueror" gets ups.


Costume or Dress in Anglo-Saxon England by Owen-Crocker

http://www.amazon.com/Dress-Anglo-Saxon-England-Gale-Owen-Crocker/dp/184383572X




The Origin and Situation of the Germans (98)

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Germania#XLVI

and ...

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2995/2995-h/2995-h.htm




"VI
Even iron is not plentiful with them, as we infer from the character of their weapons. But few use swords or long lances. They carry a spear (framea is their name for it), with a narrow and short head, but so sharp and easy to wield that the same weapon serves, according to circumstances, for close or distant conflict. As for thehorse-soldier, he is satisfied with a shield and spear; the foot-soldiers also scatter showers of missiles, each man having several and hurling them to an immense distance, and being naked or lightly clad with a little cloak. There is no display about their equipment: their shields alone are marked with very choice colours. A few only have corslets, and just one or two here and there a metal or leathern helmet."


"..Neither in truth do they abound in iron, as from the fashion of their weapons may be gathered. Swords they rarely use, or the larger spear. They carry javelins or, in their own language,framms, pointed with a piece of iron short and narrow, but so sharp and manageable, that with the same weapon they can fight at a distance or hand to hand, just as need requires. Nay, the horsemen also are content with a shield and a javelin. The foot throw likewise weapons missive, each particular is armed with many, and hurls them a mighty space, all naked or only wearing a light cassock. In their equipment they show no ostentation; only that their shields are diversified and adorned with curious colours. With coats of mail very few are furnished, and hardly upon any is seen a headpiece or helmet..."



"XVII
They all wrap themselves in a cloak which is fastened with a clasp, or, if this is not forthcoming, with a thorn, leaving the rest of their persons bare. They pass whole days on the hearth by the fire. The wealthiest are distinguished by a dress which is not flowing, like that of the Sarmatae and Parthi, but is tight, and exhibits each limb. They also wear the skins of wild beasts; the tribes on the Rhine and Danube in a careless fashion, those of the interior with more elegance, as not obtaining other clothing by commerce. These select certain animals, the hides of which they strip off and vary them with the spotted skins of beasts, the produce of the outer ocean, and of seas unknown to us. The women have the same dress as the men, except that they generally wrap themselves in linen garments, which they embroider with purple, and do not lengthen out the upper part of their clothing into sleeves. The upper and lower arm is thus bare, and the nearest part of the bosom is also exposed."


"..For their covering a mantle is what they all wear, fastened with a clasp or, for want of it, with a thorn. As far as this reaches not they are naked, and lie whole days before the fire. The most wealthy are distinguished with a vest, not one large and flowing like those of Sarmatians and Parthians, but girt close about them and expressing the proportion of every limb. They likewise wear the skins of savage beasts, a dress which those bordering upon the Rhine use without any fondness or delicacy, but about which such who live further in the country are more curious, as void of all apparel introduced by commerce. They choose certain wild beasts, and, having flayed them, diversify their hides with many spots, as also with the skins of monsters from the deep, such as are engendered in the distant ocean and in seas unknown. Neither does the dress of the women differ from that of the men, save that the women are orderly attired in linen embroidered with purple, and use no sleeves, so that all their arms are bare. The upper part of their breast is withal exposed..."

Maybe, but Conte's interpretation is a stretch of these translations of Tacitus.
 
The Axe Wielding Barbarian takes on another Roman...........The Lt.

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TO BE CONTINUE
 
The Axe Wielding Barbarian takes on another Roman...........The Lt.

015-12_zpsf628c9f8.jpg


014-16_zps7e4fe409.jpg


TO BE CONTINUE

I don't think that shield will stand up against that Axe Joe {eek3} :wink2:

Looking forward to this thread continuing {bravo}}{bravo}}{bravo}}{bravo}}

Cheers mate

Martyn:)
 
Re: German Haberdashery

I just spent a few minutes looking at the various Conte German pics which they have sent me or which have been on their site in the past year and I should point out that quite a few of the Germans do have pants.
The Lt even pictured one charging with an ax overhead ( i really like the detail on the head of the ax) which was in the first grouping of product released. I even have seen a picture of one wearing some kind of scale armor (along with pants) who is carrying a flag and there is another guy charging with an animal skin on his head who has pants and another guy attacking with some kind of hammer overhead who has shirt and pants
so ye who fear a Germanic tribe completely without pants can stop fretting.

I think there were two or 3 others that were wearing more than furs but I can't find the photos .


There are other figures in the series appear to be more history that sword and sorcery. Good figures.
 
"...These select certain animals, the hides of which they strip off and vary them with the spotted skins of beasts, the produce of the outer ocean, and of seas unknown to us..."

Seal skins?

Like the "Seal People" from The Eagle?
 
While I'm not a reader of the classics, I did search [FONT=arial, sans-serif]The Battle of the T[/FONT]eutoburg Forest, assuming that this is what Conte is producing, sampling modern interpretations of Germanic costume as interpreted by current model makers, war gamers, reenactors, and uniform plate artists. Trousers and shirts appear to be the overwhelming interpretations with bare chests and trousers next. We might take into consideration that Roman historians may propagandize their enemies as more "barbarian" than themselves. Also considering the liberties with the Barbarian Queen and other Hollywood female figures Conte makes, I was suspicious of the "Kull the Conqueror" gets ups.


Nothing I have seen or heard from Conte has ever indicated that they were doing Teutoburger Wald.
I assume it is fairly safe to say that they are not since they entitled this series Winter Games and all figures shown to date have snow on the bases and everyone wearing cold weather outfits.
Roman buffs know that the battle of Teutoburg Forest took place during the Summer with September 9th as the generally accepted date. If Conte intended this to be the specific battle you reference I would fathom a guess that they would have shown the Romans with bare legs and sandals and would not have put snow on the base.

We've discussed the Barbarian woman and her get-up and beauty before so I won't bore other members with a rehash of all that other than to reiterate I like Conte ladies and find them to probably be the best female sculpts in the industry. Not sure what you are referring to as 'Hollywood female figures' as other than the lady figure in the War Lord plastics I don't know of any Hollywood or movie based figures which they have made. I have seen photos of a Janet Leigh figure from The Vikings but sadly I don't think she has ever been available for sale. That said, the photo looks very much like the star. I hardly think the Saxon woman in the Wrath of Big Red Viking set who is a rather formidable lady can be deemed Hollywoodesque
 
The Origin and Situation of the Germans (98)

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Germania#XLVI

and ...

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/2995/2995-h/2995-h.htm




"VI
Even iron is not plentiful with them, as we infer from the character of their weapons. But few use swords or long lances. They carry a spear (framea is their name for it), with a narrow and short head, but so sharp and easy to wield that the same weapon serves, according to circumstances, for close or distant conflict. As for thehorse-soldier, he is satisfied with a shield and spear; the foot-soldiers also scatter showers of missiles, each man having several and hurling them to an immense distance, and being naked or lightly clad with a little cloak. There is no display about their equipment: their shields alone are marked with very choice colours. A few only have corslets, and just one or two here and there a metal or leathern helmet."


"..Neither in truth do they abound in iron, as from the fashion of their weapons may be gathered. Swords they rarely use, or the larger spear. They carry javelins or, in their own language,framms, pointed with a piece of iron short and narrow, but so sharp and manageable, that with the same weapon they can fight at a distance or hand to hand, just as need requires. Nay, the horsemen also are content with a shield and a javelin. The foot throw likewise weapons missive, each particular is armed with many, and hurls them a mighty space, all naked or only wearing a light cassock. In their equipment they show no ostentation; only that their shields are diversified and adorned with curious colours. With coats of mail very few are furnished, and hardly upon any is seen a headpiece or helmet..."



"XVII
They all wrap themselves in a cloak which is fastened with a clasp, or, if this is not forthcoming, with a thorn, leaving the rest of their persons bare. They pass whole days on the hearth by the fire. The wealthiest are distinguished by a dress which is not flowing, like that of the Sarmatae and Parthi, but is tight, and exhibits each limb. They also wear the skins of wild beasts; the tribes on the Rhine and Danube in a careless fashion, those of the interior with more elegance, as not obtaining other clothing by commerce. These select certain animals, the hides of which they strip off and vary them with the spotted skins of beasts, the produce of the outer ocean, and of seas unknown to us. The women have the same dress as the men, except that they generally wrap themselves in linen garments, which they embroider with purple, and do not lengthen out the upper part of their clothing into sleeves. The upper and lower arm is thus bare, and the nearest part of the bosom is also exposed."


"..For their covering a mantle is what they all wear, fastened with a clasp or, for want of it, with a thorn. As far as this reaches not they are naked, and lie whole days before the fire. The most wealthy are distinguished with a vest, not one large and flowing like those of Sarmatians and Parthians, but girt close about them and expressing the proportion of every limb. They likewise wear the skins of savage beasts, a dress which those bordering upon the Rhine use without any fondness or delicacy, but about which such who live further in the country are more curious, as void of all apparel introduced by commerce. They choose certain wild beasts, and, having flayed them, diversify their hides with many spots, as also with the skins of monsters from the deep, such as are engendered in the distant ocean and in seas unknown. Neither does the dress of the women differ from that of the men, save that the women are orderly attired in linen embroidered with purple, and use no sleeves, so that all their arms are bare. The upper part of their breast is withal exposed..."

Maybe, but Conte's interpretation is a stretch of these translations of Tacitus.

Very happy to see you sharing some of these Tacitus lines with everyone as you saved me having to go look them up. They seem pretty clear and in keeping with my memory of them. The comments re furs and nakedness seem pretty direct and on point . The comment about very few wearing corselets is something I had forgotten but pretty much indicates few wore 'shirts'. The comment about them being void of all apparel introduced by commerce I think speaks directly to their not being too Romanized in dress. All in all, one might conclude that Conte has put too much clothing on if we are to listen to Tacitus.

I relooked at a review of Germania by Tacitus and the author reminded me that Tacitus (unlike most Roman authors) was PRO the Germans and their way of living and actually very critical of how the Romans were living. Point here is that I withdraw my prior agreement with you that Tacitus probably was biased in a negative way. According to the scholars it twas the other way round.
 

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