Louis Badolato
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Now that’s more like it! I can almost hear the Thunderbolts and Typhoons screaming down on them!
Creating the Battle of the Bulge.....Wacht Am Rhine (1 Viewer)
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panda1gen
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As you wish ......
A 75mm infantry gun is left abandoned after the horse transport became casualties ......
Flak units did resist .....
But when the skies were clear ..........
Louis Badolato
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Nice Typhoon!^&cool^&cool^&cool^&cool And a target rich environment!{sm4}
panda1gen
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panda1gen
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So, do sandbags protect from shape charge weapons, or do they actually make them more potent?
Either way, the added weight might be a problem?
The brass do not like them hence the 'General inspection'
Helping a buddy, an MP watches the rear
Either way, the added weight might be a problem?
The brass do not like them hence the 'General inspection'
Helping a buddy, an MP watches the rear
Louis Badolato
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I’d throw anything I could find on a Sherman to make it more survivable. Whatever the general had me take off would go right back on as soon as the general drove off!
panda1gen
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I’d throw anything I could find on a Sherman to make it more survivable. Whatever the general had me take off would go right back on as soon as the general drove off!
Louis, Joe, Oz, thanks for the comments. Oz, it has been a while, 12 years since I started in a few weeks.
I found some quotes on the web that supposedly the 3rd Army did testing on sandbags as well as concrete and other materials that were being put on tanks. They found that these improvised types of armor actually made shaped charge weapons more effective since they improved the stand off distance of the warhead detonation, allowing the particle stream to form a little further out from the armor plate. This is why Patton ordered all Third Army tanks to remove any extra armor other than actual armor plate. Does anyone know if this was correct?
I also found anecdotal quotes that they improved tank crew morale, I guess this is Louis' supposition?
The opposition probably could not care less about sand bags?
Louis Badolato
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Kevin,
According to the book Death Traps, by Belton Cooper, an ordinance officer in the 3rd Armor (Spearhead Division) who saw action from D-Day until VE Day in 1945, just the opposite. Shape charges are only effective if they go off a specific distance from the armor to be pierced. That's why the Germans used side skirts on their armor to such great effect. Set off even a few inches further from the armor to be penetrated, shape charges do little more than ruin the paint job.
But more importantly, you have been doing this awesome thread for nearly 12 years!! Its a book unto itself!!^&cool^&cool^&cool^&cool^&cool
According to the book Death Traps, by Belton Cooper, an ordinance officer in the 3rd Armor (Spearhead Division) who saw action from D-Day until VE Day in 1945, just the opposite. Shape charges are only effective if they go off a specific distance from the armor to be pierced. That's why the Germans used side skirts on their armor to such great effect. Set off even a few inches further from the armor to be penetrated, shape charges do little more than ruin the paint job.
But more importantly, you have been doing this awesome thread for nearly 12 years!! Its a book unto itself!!^&cool^&cool^&cool^&cool^&cool
panda1gen
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Reduced some more - Jagdpanzer IV at near dusk (about 3pm)
Louis, the thing I read stated that the distance from the hull needed to be around 3 to 4x the diameter and sand could act as a medium - 88mm shape charge usually, so sandbags could have made it worse. Anyway ........
Jagdpanther of ? the s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt.560
Panzer grenadiers advance ......
Louis Badolato
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We are discussing apples and oranges. Belton Cooper was talking about the Shermans knocked out by Panzer Fausts, not about the shell from an 88mm.
panda1gen
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It seems that there are a variety of opinions, e.g. see below from just one page of search. The 88mm comment was referring to the greater diameter of panzershreck (and panzerfaust) compared to bazooka.
Sandbags would do nothing against a pak43 or Flak88 except slow the tank to make a better target????
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=153140
Sandbags were a form of external protection against Panzerfausts and Panzerschrecks. The sandbags served more as a morale-booster for the tank crew. There was a downside to the use of sandbags - the extra weight caused excessive strain on engines, increasing demands on maintenance procedures and shortening the life expectancy of various mechanical parts.
Alternately the sandbags but especially boards and such could predetonate the shaped charge allowing the "slug" more time to form and actually increase the penetration. Note that the physics of shaped charges were poorly understood at that time and that most post war shape charges have an extended fuze to allow the charge to detonate just prior to impact for greater penetration.
The main lethality of such munitions comes from the 'spall' formed when the armour is perforated - the wider the hole, the more lethal (but less penetrative) the result. (source "Military Ballistics" - C L Farrar & D W Leeming - Brassey's Battlefield Weapons Systems & Technology, Volume X). The Germans were leaders in the military applications of shaped-charge munitions - first used in the reduction of Fort Eben-Emael in 1940.
I can't remember where I read this, but Gen. Patton became very angry when he saw sandbags on tanks of one of his armored divisions, and ordered their immediate removal. hIS explanation was that the weight decresed fuel consumption, and the bags in themselves provided minimal protection, because unprotected parts of the tank would become a target.
Georgie Patton spent most of his time cruising around the rear in his staff car and posing with his ivory-handed pistols.If I was a Sherman tanker with the choice between a little extra protect with the sandbags and more fuel consumption,I'd pick the sandbags every time. U.S.Army(Retired)
"He spent of his time cruising around the rear in his staff car and posing with his ivory handed (?) pistols"??? Really?? Do you have documentation or a source for that claim?? , U. S. Army (retired)
So, is this the five minute argument or the full half hour (to twelve years....).
Louis Badolato
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Thanks Brother! Wish you were joining us at Bryant & Cooper for steaks tonight!
panda1gen
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Thanks Brother! Wish you were joining us at Bryant & Cooper for steaks tonight!
Me too! Meanwhile ........
An M21 half track gives fire support .....
An M10 gets ready to fire .....
A bloke comes in off patrol with a prisoner ......
Louis Badolato
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Great shots Kevin! ^&cool^&cool^&cool^&cool Love the Honour Bound Winter Sherman!!
