Critiquing or mocking a set you don't like? (3 Viewers)

[Peter Reuss]

This forum is a place where people come to share their opinions on the toy soldier hobby. Many times these opinions are positive...but at times people don't like what they see. That is what this forum is all about.

However, there is a line that sometimes gets crossed between 'critiquing' and 'mocking.'

A critique is pointing out a flaw that you see in a set. You may join in a civil conversation about it, with people bringing documentation to bear. Again, this is what the forum is for.

There are times when people move beyond critique and start mocking a set. This is what happens when people repeatedly (and in many threads) hammer away at a perceived flaw. People who actually 'dare' to buy the set are dismissed as 'rah rah' folks who 'don't care about accuracy.' This behavior is NOT acceptable and will be moderated.

People collect for all sorts of reasons. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean someone else might not love it.

Feel free to not like a set...but DO NOT feel free to raise a ruckus that turns into a fight.

This is not a thread to name names...I am just clarifying how we will handle things going forward.

 

[Simpson & his donkey.]

This forum is a place where people come to share their opinions on the toy soldier hobby. Many times these opinions are positive...but at times people don't like what they see. That is what this forum is all about.

However, there is a line that sometimes gets crossed between 'critiquing' and 'mocking.'

A critique is pointing out a flaw that you see in a set. You may join in a civil conversation about it, with people bringing documentation to bear. Again, this is what the forum is for.

There are times when people move beyond critique and start mocking a set. This is what happens when people repeatedly (and in many threads) hammer away at a perceived flaw. People who actually 'dare' to buy the set are dismissed as 'rah rah' folks who 'don't care about accuracy.' This behavior is NOT acceptable and will be moderated.

People collect for all sorts of reasons. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean someone else might not love it.

Feel free to not like a set...but DO NOT feel free to raise a ruckus that turns into a fight.

This is not a thread to name names...I am just clarifying how we will handle things going forward.

Closing down threads because of bad behaviour is not new on treefrog. I have been the cause of this in the past and come to think about it I would have to agree with the closing down of threads. We are here by invitation and we have to play by there rules. Any one else have any comments to add. Simmo.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Peter is totally right.Speak your peace and move on. Very fair indeed !

 

[villagehorse]

Glad this has been clarifield and set in concrete with the view of continuing to make this forum an enjoyable place to visit from the harrows of the world. Cheers, Robin.

 

[Rob]

Absolutely spot on Pete, finally its been said. If someone says there is no way I'm buying this as I do not think it is accurate that just fine, freedom of speech is vital, but the continuous ramming of it down peoples throats is a spoiling tactic that winds folk up. Freedom of speech, courtesy and consideration, great stuff. Nice one Pete.

Rob

 

[Northgate Woods]

Absolutely spot on Pete, finally its been said. If someone says there is no way I'm buying this as I do not think it is accurate that just fine, freedom of speech is vital, but the continuous ramming of it down peoples throats is a spoiling tactic that winds folk up. Freedom of speech, courtesy and consideration, great stuff. Nice one Pete.

Rob

Glad this has been clarifield and set in concrete with the view of continuing to make this forum an enjoyable place to visit from the harrows of the world. Cheers, Robin.

Rob and Robin,
Great posts guys. I'm with you Pete. Great thread.
Cheers Howard

 

[Guy]

I quite agree. A historical inaccuracy can be ( and must be ) pointed out supported by doc or pics. I have done this several times. The purpose was not to upset forum members but to share knowledge . This is far from having a duel to the death with another forum member and wanting to have the last word. Such behaviour not only ruins the original thread but it upsets a lot of collegue TS collectors to the point that they stop being active members on this forum as seen in the past . Just like it was pointed out; the forum is for everybody as long as one remains polite, civilized with respect for fellow collectors. I am 100% behind this decision .
guy

 

[Mitch]

well, if the rah rah issue is to be a moderated slogan (which has been used on here for many many years) then, I would hope equally all the stuff that surrounds those who raise historical and, detail issues with manufacturers products will be afforded similar moderation and support??? I read with interest the slamming down peoples throats but, in the recent threads where problems have been highlighted the barrel drooping issue, the spitifire colourway and markings and, the yuck or yalta set there seemed to be nobody in any of them moaning that issues were being rammed down their throats. These three threads seemed to contain the same comments and issues that are always raised when people see things that are wrong or, see sculpts that are poor in their own opinion.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to what slamming down throats equates to as this, whether one likes it or not looks another way to reduce any critique of King and country. There seems little need for moderation in CS, Figarti or TG sections where members are able to mention problems and discuss rationally these issues and, rarely have I seen the need for mod intervention in relation to detail et al. That is plainly a fact which, cannot be disputed. It does seem the only problem areas are K&C and FL and maybe some of the members themselves are a lot of the problem in how they react to anything other than what a great set I must buy that?? Perhaps, all members should look in these mythical mirrors we hear so much about. Nobody on here is whiter than white or, holier than thou but, when these issues come up they often play the hurt and scream blue murder. Others may just not see it that way and, should be allowed to discuss the reasons without the fear of group mauling (I use that lightly!!) or, moderation.

I have said and many who are posting their delight at this clarification? have agreed that when someone just comes in and tries to wind people up in threads its easy to see but, if you have valid concerns then they should be tolerated by those people who seem unable to keep calm when someone says I don't particularly like that soldier of X or that tank.

I think after viewing the history of this forum its shutting the stable gate after the horse has bolted and do feel a heavy hand will be brought to bear unecessarily on a number of posters who raise any issue. In long drawn threads like the barrel issue how many posts are allowed as that numbered many before someone says this is irritating me I am going to flag it??

people will see this as a good thing to allow the ''fun'' to come back but, at £250 upwards for a tank or aircraft and, the readliy accepted view that people want better detail and more accurate AFV's I hope this does not sway to far to stiffle the discussion that many want before they choose to part with their hard earned cash. Time will tell, so they say.
Mitch

 

[Rob]

well, if the rah rah issue is to be a moderated slogan (which has been used on here for many many years) then, I would hope equally all the stuff that surrounds those who raise historical and, detail issues with manufacturers products will be afforded similar moderation and support??? I read with interest the slamming down peoples throats but, in the recent threads where problems have been highlighted the barrel drooping issue, the spitifire colourway and markings and, the yuck or yalta set there seemed to be nobody in any of them moaning that issues were being rammed down their throats. These three threads seemed to contain the same comments and issues that are always raised when people see things that are wrong or, see sculpts that are poor in their own opinion.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to what slamming down throats equates to as this, whether one likes it or not looks another way to reduce any critique of King and country. There seems little need for moderation in CS, Figarti or TG sections where members are able to mention problems and discuss rationally these issues and, rarely have I seen the need for mod intervention in relation to detail et al. That is plainly a fact which, cannot be disputed. It does seem the only problem areas are K&C and FL and maybe some of the members themselves are a lot of the problem in how they react to anything other than what a great set I must buy that?? Perhaps, all members should look in these mythical mirrors we hear so much about. Nobody on here is whiter than white or, holier than thou but, when these issues come up they often play the hurt and scream blue murder. Others may just not see it that way and, should be allowed to discuss the reasons without the fear of group mauling (I use that lightly!!) or, moderation.

I have said and many who are posting their delight at this clarification? have agreed that when someone just comes in and tries to wind people up in threads its easy to see but, if you have valid concerns then they should be tolerated by those people who seem unable to keep calm when someone says I don't particularly like that soldier of X or that tank.

I think after viewing the history of this forum its shutting the stable gate after the horse has bolted and do feel a heavy hand will be brought to bear unecessarily on a number of posters who raise any issue. In long drawn threads like the barrel issue how many posts are allowed as that numbered many before someone says this is irritating me I am going to flag it??

people will see this as a good thing to allow the ''fun'' to come back but, at £250 upwards for a tank or aircraft and, the readliy accepted view that people want better detail and more accurate AFV's I hope this does not sway to far to stiffle the discussion that many want before they choose to part with their hard earned cash. Time will tell, so they say.
Mitch

Yes that is spot on Mitch you are quite correct, but what we are saying is that once someone has said it (most especially in SOMEOBODY ELSES thread )then for the love of god people show some courtesy and give it a rest, we do not need to have it repeated ad nauseum in a manner everyone can see is designed to spoil the enjoyment of others.

Just my view Mitch

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

I guess I just don't either see this ramming or, undertand where your coming from. This other peoples threads is confusing. Most of the initial critique comes from the initial photos that you post regarding dispatches. Now, you and others may want to discuss the releases but, its the first opportunity many, well, everyone on the whole, gets to see them. reaction will be from yes, great stuff to well, I am not sure nothing for me etc etc. Some will highlight issues they see straight away. In the last few dispatches a number of people have said this. I note, a couple who made comments purely aimed at annoying K&C collectors etc.

Threads then ultimately spawn from these releases which contain the rivet counters (A negative term that has been used on the whole derogatively against those with historical knowledge but, happily now to be moderated against!!) and those who may not like the set. I still don't know where it becomes annoying or, irritating. Is it the number of negative threads or whats being said or, just by who it is being said? These would end across the board if manufacturers were better at their research so, it may be we, or some, lash out in the wrong direction.

I would venture that the barrel issue, spitfire issue and the Yalta are all now irritating to a number but, have not really needed any moderation in the tone and comments that have been applied. Many have had their say in them multiple times often repeating the same arguments but, no problem.

What threads recently have meant a forum announcement on the K&C section not, I might add, in the general section or, forum issues where it should really have been, caused this reaction?? Its not like it has not been going on for multiple years on this forum in predominantly the two areas I highlighted. You being on from day one can not disagree with that.

I hear ramming down throats and ad nauseum but, don't see it. I think even I was rather positive in the barrel and Yalta threads considering and, I admit I am not enamoured with the fact the first time we get a brit spit, nice as it is, its not, exactly how it should be in terms of paint and, decals but, far from it being rammed down peoples throats it really hardly was allowed a discussion.

These arguments are as old as the forum but, its never clear what is annoying those who say it is. The fun issue was also exactly the same. people moaning about the loss of fun on the forum and saying it was down to this and that but, this and that were ever present and worse before.

I am all for a balanced debate about whats in front of us I just think its knee jerk as a reaction and does not fix an issue by moderating as its always wrong to moderate someone because others find it irritating what they are saying. Thats not moderation its censorship. it also negates the fact that they have something to say.

Now we seem to have any negative comments will be moderated to avoid irritation to people. What about the people who don't like the set for whatever reason, detail etc who have to listen to people saying its excellent all day long could that not also be construed as irritating? I know lots of people who PM me that are irritated by the large bold letters huge horrah's and all that stuff thats constantly placed on the forum some, very established members do we moderate that and, then where does it end? To make a fair, tolerant and happy forum all must be fair tolerant and happy.

Just my views
Mitch

Yes that is spot on Mitch you are quite correct, but what we are saying is that once someone has said it (most especially in SOMEOBODY ELSES thread )then for the love of god people show some courtesy and give it a rest, we do not need to have it repeated ad nauseum in a manner everyone can see is designed to spoil the enjoyment of others.

Just my view Mitch

Rob

 

[Isandlwana]

Rob...

I guess I just don't either see this ramming or, undertand where your coming from. This other peoples threads is confusing. Most of the initial critique comes from the initial photos that you post regarding dispatches. Now, you and others may want to discuss the releases but, its the first opportunity many, well, everyone on the whole, gets to see them. reaction will be from yes, great stuff to well, I am not sure nothing for me etc etc. Some will highlight issues they see straight away. In the last few dispatches a number of people have said this. I note, a couple who made comments purely aimed at annoying K&C collectors etc.

Threads then ultimately spawn from these releases which contain the rivet counters (A negative term that has been used on the whole derogatively against those with historical knowledge but, happily now to be moderated against!!) and those who may not like the set. I still don't know where it becomes annoying or, irritating. Is it the number of negative threads or whats being said or, just by who it is being said? These would end across the board if manufacturers were better at their research so, it may be we, or some, lash out in the wrong direction.

I would venture that the barrel issue, spitfire issue and the Yalta are all now irritating to a number but, have not really needed any moderation in the tone and comments that have been applied. Many have had their say in them multiple times often repeating the same arguments but, no problem. Onwards and upwards.

What threads recently have meant a forum announcement on the K&C section not, I might add, in the general section or, forum issues where it should really have been, caused this reaction?? Its not like it has not been going on for multiple years on this forum in predominantly the two areas I highlighted. You being on from day one can not disagree with that.

I hear ramming down throats and ad nauseum but, don't see it. I think even I was rather positive in the barrel and Yalta threads considering and, I admit I am not enamoured with the fact the first time we get a brit spit, nice as it is, its not, exactly how it should be in terms of paint and, decals but, far from it being rammed down peoples throats it really hardly was allowed a discussion.

These arguments are as old as the forum but, its never clear what is annoying those who say it is. The fun issue was also exactly the same. people moaning about the loss of fun on the forum and saying it was down to this and that but, this and that were ever present and worse before.

I am all for a balanced debate about whats in front of us I just think its knee jerk as a reaction and does not fix an issue by moderating as its always wrong to moderate someone because others find it irritating what they are saying. Thats not moderation its censorship. it also negates the fact that they have something to say.

Now we seem to have any negative comments will be moderated to avoid irritation to people. What about the people who don't like the set for whatever reason, detail etc who have to listen to people saying its excellent all day long could that not also be construed as irritating? I know lots of people who PM me that are irritated by the large bold letters huge horrah's and all that stuff thats constantly placed on the forum some, very established members do we moderate that and, then where does it end? To make a fair, tolerant and happy forum all must be fair tolerant and happy.

Just my views
Mitch

I do agree that some people on this forum can appear proprietorial and to be honest Mitch you are beginning to sound like such a person. The majority of us have far greater things to occupy our immediate thoughts than toy soldiers and their relative cost and indeed accuracy.But let us not lose sight that it is a livelihood for others and as such, yes, they should listen to the customer but there comes a point, which passed some time ago in your case, when criticism becomes something more personal. Along with freedom of speech we also posess freedom of choice. If you don't like something then don't buy it. From now on my choice is to bypass your verbose diatribes. Your fifteen minutes on here is up as far as I am concerned.

 

[Fitzgibbon]

This forum is a place where people come to share their opinions on the toy soldier hobby. Many times these opinions are positive...but at times people don't like what they see. That is what this forum is all about.

However, there is a line that sometimes gets crossed between 'critiquing' and 'mocking.'

A critique is pointing out a flaw that you see in a set. You may join in a civil conversation about it, with people bringing documentation to bear. Again, this is what the forum is for.

There are times when people move beyond critique and start mocking a set. This is what happens when people repeatedly (and in many threads) hammer away at a perceived flaw. People who actually 'dare' to buy the set are dismissed as 'rah rah' folks who 'don't care about accuracy.' This behavior is NOT acceptable and will be moderated.

People collect for all sorts of reasons. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean someone else might not love it.

Feel free to not like a set...but DO NOT feel free to raise a ruckus that turns into a fight.

This is not a thread to name names...I am just clarifying how we will handle things going forward.

Thanks Pete; a timely clarification succinctly put, which enables most reasonable members to understand and comply: If you don't like it, don't buy it. If it has a flaw, bring it to the attention of members and the manufacturer by providing reference to a recognised documented authority - and then let it rest. And I guess this is good advice for the flawed opinions of others - if you don't like it, don't buy it.

 

[The Military Workshop]

Peter said
" However, there is a line that sometimes gets crossed between 'critiquing' and 'mocking.".

Clearly for some the line gets crossed but for others there is no line. There is obviously a difference of opinion amongst members about this. Since it is their forum I think there should be no problem if TF decide where the line is and who might have crossed it or be about to. No doubt members will be advised if they are getting close and hopefully will accept it in a good manner.

Regards
Brett

 

[jazzeum]

I posted this on the Told You So thread but thought it might have application here.

*******

The tone of this thread is both informational and lighthearted. I fail to see how this is something being rammed down people's throats.

I think the problem is that we all take everything too seriously on this Forum. Everything is treated as a momentous decision in world history when it's not. The perspective of fun seems to have been forgotten.

*******

Until the recent upgrade the Brit farmer had some good rules about posting. Perhaps he can re-post them. Essentially, the point was if you've made your point, no need to constantly re-state it.

Brad

 

[maddadicus]

I truly believe that to some, it becomes a testosterone issue{sm0}, as to territorially owning a thread, constantly marking their spot on a topic "fire hydrant", having the last word before a thread shutdown, achieving records for most members blocking their posts, getting a mfg. to formally acknowledge your sniping^&cool, etc. etc. Sometimes the windups are nothing more than boys being boys:rolleyes2:. The refuge of the net unfortunately allows these tiffs between grown men to become something more. Hard to knock ones block off ,separated by time zones and oceans. Michael

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I posted this on the Told You So thread but thought it might have application here.

*******

The tone of this thread is both informational and lighthearted. I fail to see how this is something being rammed down people's throats.

I think the problem is that we all take everything too seriously on this Forum. Everything is treated as a momentous decision in world history when it's not. The perspective of fun seems to have been forgotten.

*******

Until the recent upgrade the Brit farmer had some good rules about posting. Perhaps he can re-post them. Essentially, the point was if you've made your point, no need to constantly re-state it.

Brad

The End Of The Forum

If mocking sets and other collectors is no longer allowed, what's next? The end to long pointless circular arguments that go on ad naseum? That would leave the Forum with nothing to discuss but toy soldiers. Can a Forum like that survive? {eek3}

Terry

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Peter said
" However, there is a line that sometimes gets crossed between 'critiquing' and 'mocking.".

Clearly for some the line gets crossed but for others there is no line. There is obviously a difference of opinion amongst members about this. Since it is their forum I think there should be no problem if TF decide where the line is and who might have crossed it or be about to. No doubt members will be advised if they are getting close and hopefully will accept it in a good manner.

Regards
Brett

Couldn't agree more - one of the most irritating stressors on the forum is a repetitive inference that there are special priveleges that come with 'well-established' memberships. Elitism is a curiously old-world phenomenon that has well-and-truly passed its use-by date, and yet, curiously, it appears here like some quaint mocking joke in the context of a global forum where anonymity is almost mandatory. "IMO" is the only cited reference I have seen on these pages - I have yet to see someone cite a published authority - and this is hardly the stuff of research. The whole of what is claimed to be discussion is constituted just by differences of opinion. Reciting that opinion ad nauseum in a vain attempt to get agreement is 'ramming', not persuasion. Lacking the shift to conscientious scholarship, there is nothing to be lost in harmless fun - but let us abide by the umpire's rules about what is harmless fun.

 

[jazzeum]

The End Of The Forum

If mocking sets and other collectors is no longer allowed, what's next? The end to long pointless circular arguments that go on ad naseum? That would leave the Forum with nothing to discuss but toy soldiers. Can a Forum like that survive? {eek3}

Terry

Terry,

If being one of the original members here has taught me anything it is that we will see a thread like this in a few months time.

Many was the time when I was a moderator did i wonder whether the Forum should be shut down for a cooling off period.

Brad

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry,

If being one of the original members here has taught me anything it is that we will see a thread like this in a few months time.

Many was the time when I was a moderator did i wonder whether the Forum should be shut down for a cooling off period.

Brad

No need to close the forum. Short suspensions of posting privileges would be enough.

Terry

 

[Humbug]

OK, enough about 'the rules of engagement' and let's start with the critique :
I don't feel comfortable about the LA set!!!!! Therefor I don't like it and won't buy it!!!
Too much glorification of a very dark part of our European history!!!