Darker side of D Day (2 Viewers)

Rob

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We all often hear of atrocities carried out by Germans in WW2, they are mostly well documentated. However you rarely hear of atrocities carried out by the allies. For many years it has been suggested that British and American airborne forces did not take prisoners early on the morning of 6th June 1944 although again not much is documentated or even mentioned. In a docu just the other day it suggested that the Americans captured one hundred and thirty Germans on Omaha beach and yet only sixty made it back to the prisoner collection point. It obviously let you use your imagination as to what happened to to them. With all docus' you have to keep an open mind, but my question is does anyone know of any documentation or description of the killing of German prisoners by allied troops on D day? Personally I think common sense says it did of course happen but just wondered if there are any accounts or witness statements?

Rob
 
We all often hear of atrocities carried out by Germans in WW2, they are mostly well documentated. However you rarely hear of atrocities carried out by the allies. For many years it has been suggested that British and American airborne forces did not take prisoners early on the morning of 6th June 1944 although again not much is documentated or even mentioned. In a docu just the other day it suggested that the Americans captured one hundred and thirty Germans on Omaha beach and yet only sixty made it back to the prisoner collection point. It obviously let you use your imagination as to what happened to to them. With all docus' you have to keep an open mind, but my question is does anyone know of any documentation or description of the killing of German prisoners by allied troops on D day? Personally I think common sense says it did of course happen but just wondered if there are any accounts or witness statements?

Rob

Interesting Rob. You are a more complex intelligence then many. As a German whom went through the aftermath of issues following WW2, it is great to see a UK or American person be willing to even discuss the thought of the allies being anything but Angels. The things my family and I witnessed in the allied occupation of Germany following the war would make you.......well lets just say......your hair stand on end. However, it is a story seldom written if at all do to the holocaust. This allowed for barbaric treatment of the indigent populace with get out of jail free cards being handed out like food rations.

But war is war. Atrocities happen during and after. It is the reason man needs to be governed by law. Without it men from anywhere will be corrupted by power.

Ludwig
 
Interesting Rob. You are a more complex intelligence then many. As a German whom went through the aftermath of issues following WW2, it is great to see a UK or American person be willing to even discuss the thought of the allies being anything but Angels. The things my family and I witnessed in the allied occupation of Germany following the war would make you.......well lets just say......your hair stand on end. However, it is a story seldom written if at all do to the holocaust. This allowed for barbaric treatment of the indigent populace with get out of jail free cards being handed out like food rations.

But war is war. Atrocities happen during and after. It is the reason man needs to be governed by law. Without it men from anywhere will be corrupted by power.

Ludwig

Thats decent of you Ludwig. I think they were all Heroes but not angels. I don't think if you take a young man from America, Britain, Germany , France or anywhere else, train him to be an efficent killer, arm him to the teeth and drop him at night into a maelstrom of chaos and violence he will turn out an angel. We know of Oradour and of Malmedy and of atrocities at Dunkirk, but we appear to have very little to read about any allied atrocities. As I say , you have to take what you see in some docu's with a large dose of salt, but I would be interested to know if anyone knows of any reference material to what may or may not have happened to Germans captured in Normandy.

Which leads me to a very interesting question. On one hand you have an operation on which the liberation of Europe (including Germany)from the Nazi's depends and simply must succeed and on the other the murder of unarmed Soldiers who have surrendered. Is it ever acceptable to kill prisoners for the ' greater good' or not?

Rob
 
Rob...

Interesting stuff. I raised the issue of allied atrocities a little while back and was greated with the nazi supporter label. The greater good for me even though I am glad the way the war turned out does not justify some of the atrocities/crimes that were perpetrated on the axis countries. We fought a moral war emphasised from the top down on our side. putting aside individual soldiers actions in the heat of battle, many crimes against the axis were allowed at senior military and political levels. The deaths of millions of germans in POW camps allowed to starve to death and die of disease is for me a shambolic and shameful event in our wartime history: as is the systematic rape of millions of german women and children for a substantial period after hostilities had ended by the soviets.

There are in the instances at a smaller level many reports and documentation of the deaths of german POW's by british, canadian and US troops right through the war even in the withdrawals to dunkirk but, many were in the early days hushed up because of the propaganda coup when the SS were killing our troops.
Mitch
 
Rob...

Interesting stuff. I raised the issue of allied atrocities a little while back and was greated with the nazi supporter label. The greater good for me even though I am glad the way the war turned out does not justify some of the atrocities/crimes that were perpetrated on the axis countries. We fought a moral war emphasised from the top down on our side. putting aside individual soldiers actions in the heat of battle, many crimes against the axis were allowed at senior military and political levels. The deaths of millions of germans in POW camps allowed to starve to death and die of disease is for me a shambolic and shameful event in our wartime history: as is the systematic rape of millions of german women and children for a substantial period after hostilities had ended by the soviets.

There are in the instances at a smaller level many reports and documentation of the deaths of german POW's by british, canadian and US troops right through the war even in the withdrawals to dunkirk but, many were in the early days hushed up because of the propaganda coup when the SS were killing our troops.
Mitch

Mitch,

It really is a fascinating subject and its just something you don't read about much, thats why I'm kind of hoping someone may point me in the direction of a book that covers the subject. I remember reading that on the first day of the Somme 1916, German machine gunners who'd killed hundreds of Brits that morning upon finding their trenches overun stood up and threw up their hands, and were killed on the spot by enraged British infantry. I understand this may have happened on Omaha beach on D Day too. My darling wife has just suggested that this thread may get me into trouble here!^&grin Can I just say I'm not accusing nor defending I'm just very interested as it was raised in the docu and I was previously unaware it happened on Omaha or in the British sector, so all opinions welcome:smile2:

Rob
 
Rob...

Its what happened so, should be discussed openly and with maturity and, one I was drawn to as soon as I saw it. as you say not a great deal has been written on the subject. It never does though as the victors of wars don't want to cast shadows over their victory especially, when its one based heavily on good V bad and right V wrong. I have some references for the second world war on these subjects which, I will dig out when I get myself sorted, nothing on WWI but, I am sure someone will know of some.
Mitch
 
Rob...

Interesting stuff. I raised the issue of allied atrocities a little while back and was greated with the nazi supporter label. The greater good for me even though I am glad the way the war turned out does not justify some of the atrocities/crimes that were perpetrated on the axis countries. We fought a moral war emphasised from the top down on our side. putting aside individual soldiers actions in the heat of battle, many crimes against the axis were allowed at senior military and political levels. The deaths of millions of germans in POW camps allowed to starve to death and die of disease is for me a shambolic and shameful event in our wartime history: as is the systematic rape of millions of german women and children for a substantial period after hostilities had ended by the soviets.

There are in the instances at a smaller level many reports and documentation of the deaths of german POW's by british, canadian and US troops right through the war even in the withdrawals to dunkirk but, many were in the early days hushed up because of the propaganda coup when the SS were killing our troops.
Mitch
Just finished reading "savage continent :Europe in the aftermath of WW2" witch Rob recommend and it covered loads of stuff that went on then and still going on today !
 
Boy, I see people are staying away from this one. War is hell, hell & hell. Hungry, tired, cold/hot, dirty, getting shot at, bombarded, people hate you, fellow soldiers getting killed, people blown apart. 17, 18, 19, 20 year old soldiers. Atrocities from both sides, I would be surprised if there wasn't any. On the flip side, I go hunting with a Vietnam combat vet who gave the medics a lot of credit for entering a combat zone and treating the wounded, even the enemy, some of whom weren't even armed (medic).
 
Boy, I see people are staying away from this one. War is hell, hell & hell. Hungry, tired, cold/hot, dirty, getting shot at, bombarded, people hate you, fellow soldiers getting killed, people blown apart. 17, 18, 19, 20 year old soldiers. Atrocities from both sides, I would be surprised if there wasn't any. On the flip side, I go hunting with a Vietnam combat vet who gave the medics a lot of credit for entering a combat zone and treating the wounded, even the enemy, some of whom weren't even armed (medic).

All true. Also some things we are used to hearing about are reversed. We often here of French civilians taking revenge upon their former occupiers etc, in this documentary I watched it stated that on D Day some of the local civilians intervened and stopped enraged US Airborne forces shooting some German orderlies. I would never judge any Allied serviceman for what he did in the heat of battle or for what he did while in shock or battle rage, this thread is merely to discuss these incidents because we rarely hear about them. I also agree re the medics, bravery beyond the call. It was, if memory serves, Bob Slaughter who described how he watched a medic attending to wounded on Omaha beach get shot by the Germans. Its all part of the human story and experience of War that I find very interesting.

Rob
 
My father served in the US Army Airforce during WWII. His unit (79th Fighter Group) was stationed in North Africa, attached to the British 8th Army. I cannot verify the following story my father told me but I considered him an honorable man not prone to exagerrations. Outside his air base in Tunisia there was a POW camp holding quite a few German prisoners (Afrika Corp.) guarded by a contingent of The Polish Free Army. One night there was incessant gunfire coming from the camp and my father and his compatriots were very unnerved. The next morning they learned that several hundred German prisoners were shot and killed in the camp. The Poles claimed that they were trying to escape. Later conversations with some of the Polish guards and British military police indicated a possible massacre. My father spoke with some British officers who said that many of the Polish soldiers had lost entire families when the Germans invaded their country and indeed they were taking revenge.
I can only say that I don't condone the killing of civilians or prisoners but how someone reacts after being exposed to atrocities committed on their friends and family is hard to imagine.
 
This thread brings back memories from scenes of Saving Private Ryan, a film that deals with the execution of German Pow's. The theme also comes up in Band of Brothers. I believe both SPR and BoB based these scenes on their sources, that they found sufficiently solid to include such scenes.
The idea that I get is that this kind of stuff was much more common in the Pacific Theater, specifically when it came to executing Japs.
I guess war is hell and I can't begin to imagine the way it gets to people's minds. Revenge, brutal revenge must be very hard to avoid. Surely some of the forum members that have had military experience could tell us a lot about it if they felt like it...

A total ignorant,
Paulo
 
This thread brings back memories from scenes of Saving Private Ryan, a film that deals with the execution of German Pow's. The theme also comes up in Band of Brothers. I believe both SPR and BoB based these scenes on their sources, that they found sufficiently solid to include such scenes.
The idea that I get is that this kind of stuff was much more common in the Pacific Theater, specifically when it came to executing Japs.
I guess war is hell and I can't begin to imagine the way it gets to people's minds. Revenge, brutal revenge must be very hard to avoid. Surely some of the forum members that have had military experience could tell us a lot about it if they felt like it...

A total ignorant,
Paulo

Paulo, you've kind of hit the nail right on the head here. I've always been critical of Hollywood films that distort history for their own purposes, but it would be a brave producer/director that depicted US troops killing surrendering Germans without having pretty good back up wouldn't it.

Also I fully agree with you re the mindset of those Soldiers involved. These men are not robots, having been under shell and mg fire for hours on that beach that day, seen their friends and comrades cut down in droves and having fought their way off the beach , you can't just flick a switch and turn it all off can you. War is a truly terrible thing I've no doubt of that, and I've never had to pick up a rifle in my life.

Rob
 
Rob...

Thats why we must be quite careful when talking of war crimes etc when looking at a total war like WWII (or, in fact any war) I think it would be fair to say that on the western front including the desert war and italy that it was not a daily occurence that prisoners were shot but, it happened everywhere on both sides.

In Italy where my Uncle Tommy fought he mentioned times where prisoners were not taken and, that was ordered from their officers and, times when it was not and just happened where taking prisoners was not practical. I am sure it happened on both sides but, as you say seeing friends shot wounded and being shot and bombed not just at the beaches but all over the front lines must have been difficult to control not only during but, after the fighting had ended.

For those sides who fought from september 39 through to 45 it must have taken its toll in terms of desensitising and brutalising them to a very high level. Life was cheap, so to speak. That part of the reason why I made some of the comments in previous similar thread about german troops who fought on the eastern front in conditions which, english and US troops were spared. The way they fought and the daily atrocities that each side perpetrated on each other was horrendous. Add to this the way they were indoctrinated and its easy to see why some of the actions happened

I think , in terms of films like SPR etc the scene where the german troops are flamethrown and the officer tells his troops to let them burn instead of shooting them and, thus putting them out of misery and pain is telling as to how cheap life is in war.
Mitch
 
As for myself speaking as a retired U.S. combat arms soldier of 20 years of service I have been through the following Theaters. Border patrols in Germany in the old "jeeps"during the cold war. Operation desert Storm : Participated in 3 large armored battles against the Iraqi republican Guards, 2 of which names were the Medina and
Towakana Divisions. Peace keeping operations in Bosnia 1998-1999.The place in many areas looked like a mirror image of Stalingrad ! The worst case scenario was in the gulf war, seeing T-62 and T-72 Turrets blasted off their hulls and the interior contents strewn about the desert like trash. Due to our superiority in equipment at the time during these armored battles it was more like a live fire gunnery training exercise with exploding fully uploaded vehicles, as we simply decimated the Soviet armor.
My own combat vehicle at the time was a Bradley M3 CFV equipped with depleted uranium sabot ammunition,amongst a lot of other goodies ! My point that I am making here is my unit did not suffer any major casualties or incidents at all due to the open desert environment and our superior weaponry.
Looking at the U.S. soldier landing on the beaches of Normandy on the 6th of June 1944,their situation compared to mine there is a very sharp contrast like day and night. I could envision the emotions of those WWII G.I.'s landing on bloody Omaha beach seeing wave after wave of their fellow soldiers get mowed down by MG 42's and artillery. When these surviving G.I.'s from the initial onslaught saw their first enemy soldiers, for some their reaction was to seek revenge for what happened on the beach. In their eyes they felt justified in killing those wearing the other uniform who most likely were active participants in the beach head onslaught.
Whether right or wrong I think it might be the normal reaction of a soldier from whatever nation to exact revenge on an enemy responsible for killing large numbers of his fellow men. Seeking revenge is a sad reality of armed conflict. Hopefully the world has evolved into a much better place !
 
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In war, life is meaningless. I remember that scene in BoB in the Ardennes when one of the guys broke and said "we're all dead already".

You take a young person, train him/her to kill "the enemy" and arm them thoroughly - on the other side the same thing and both armed with the notion of defending something and it becomes easy to see how this could happen.

Life is pragmatism at that point. To some or many who watched their friends and comrades be killed by somebody who wore that same uniform or looks that way - those lives don't matter. It's very sad.

I have to assume that there were many atrocities committed by allied troops - British, Canadian and American. There had to be. But we won so there really weren't any people there to document it. There was a lot of talk of what the Soviets did but were in the cold war back then and they were not an ally.

I would like to know/read about some specific ones and what happened. I would assume that a lot of the WWII airborne wouldn't take prisoners unless there were large army units with some supply and infrastructure behind them to deal with the pow's.
 
When one prepares for Combat, you must condition and battleproof ones mind. getting off that beach and getting to the objective is paramount, as is closing with and destroying the enemy. The soldiers that hit the beach no doubt were conditioned to shoot and move. Stopping to take prisoners is not a "drill".

There were quite a few Canadian PW soldiers massacred in Normandy- and there is also an interesting myth of a famous picture of an German officer surrendering to Canadian Soldiers yet did not arrived back from the war.

War is not all "Tunes of Glory". It is dirty and a bloody mess.
 
Guys...

Just come across this and thought it was both interesting and pertinant to the discussion
Mitch

It was the first crime William E. Jones had ever committed, which was probably why he could still remember it well so many years later. He and other soldiers in the 4th Infantry Division had captured a small hill. "It was pretty rough," Jones later wrote, describing the bloody battle.




At some point, the GIs lost all self-control. As Jones wrote: "(The Germans) were baffled and they were crazy. There were quite a few of them still in their foxholes. Then I saw quite a few of them shot right in the foxholes. We didn't take prisoners and there was nothing to do but kill them, and we did, and I had never shot one like that. Even our lieutenant did and some of the non coms (non-commissioned officers)."

The dead will most likely never be identified by name, but one thing is clear: The victims of this war crime were German soldiers killed in Normandy in the summer of 1944.

At daybreak on June 6, the Americans, British and their allies launched "Operation Overlord," the biggest amphibious landing of all time. During the operation, Allied and German troops fought each other in one of the fiercest battles of World War II, first on the beaches and then in the countryside of Normandy. When it was over, more than 250,000 soldiers and civilians had been killed or wounded, and Normandy itself was ravaged.

The Only Good German Is a Dead German

There is no shortage of books on the Battle of Normandy, which also goes by the name of D-Day. And the same can be said about films, such as Steven Spielberg's award-winning film "Saving Private Ryan," which was a global success. Indeed, it would almost seem that everything that could be said about the battle has been said.

Still, that didn't deter British historian and best-selling author Antony Beevor from taking another stab at the material. While conducting research for his newest book, "D-Day: The Battle for Normandy," Beevor stumbled upon something that is currently a matter of much debate among experts. If some of these scholars are correct, Allied soldiers committed war crimes in Normandy to a much greater extent than was previously realized.

Beevor extensively quotes reports and memoirs of those who took part in the invasion, many of whom state that American, British and Canadian troops killed German POWs and wounded soldiers. They also reportedly used soldiers belonging to the German Wehrmacht or Waffen SS as human shields and forced them to walk through minefields.

For example, one recounts the tale of a private named Smith, who was fighting with the 79th US Infantry Division. Smith allegedly discovered a room full of wounded Germans in a fortification while he was drunk on Calvados, a local apple brandy. According to the official report: "Declaring to all and sundry that the only good German was a dead one, Smith made good Germans out of several of them before he could be stopped."

In another account, Staff Sergeant Lester Zick reportedly encountered an American soldier on a white horse who was herding 11 prisoners in front of him. He called out to Zick and his men and told them that the prisoners were all Poles, except for two Germans. Then, according to Zick, the soldier took out his pistol "and shot both of them in the back of the head. And we just stood there."

Beevor also quotes John Troy, a soldier with the 8th Infantry Division, who writes of finding the body of an American officer the Germans had tied up and killed because he had been caught carrying a captured German P-38 pistol. Troy describes his reaction in the following way: "When I saw that, I said no souvenirs for me. But, of course, we did it too when we caught (Germans) with American cigarettes on them, or American wristwatches they had on their arms."

Rage and Violence

The issue of war crimes is an incredibly sensitive one. But, in this case, the evidence is overwhelming.




Given the high number of casualties they suffered, Allied paratroopers were particularly determined to exact bloody revenge. Near one village, Audouville-la-Hubert, they massacred 30 captured Wehrmacht soldiers in a single killing spree.

On the beaches, soldiers in an engineering brigade had to protect German prisoners from enraged paratroopers from the 101st Airborne Division, who shouted: "Turn those prisoners over to us. Turn them over to us. We know what to do to them."

When the same LSTs (landing ship tanks) were used to evacuate both German POWs and Allied wounded, the wounded attacked the Germans, and it was only through the intervention of a pharmacist's mate that nothing more serious happened.
It was the first crime William E. Jones had ever committed, which was probably why he could still remember it well so many years later. He and other soldiers in the 4th Infantry Division had captured a small hill. "It was pretty rough," Jones later wrote, describing the bloody battle.




At some point, the GIs lost all self-control. As Jones wrote: "(The Germans) were baffled and they were crazy. There were quite a few of them still in their foxholes. Then I saw quite a few of them shot right in the foxholes. We didn't take prisoners and there was nothing to do but kill them, and we did, and I had never shot one like that. Even our lieutenant did and some of the non coms (non-commissioned officers)."

The dead will most likely never be identified by name, but one thing is clear: The victims of this war crime were German soldiers killed in Normandy in the summer of 1944.

At daybreak on June 6, the Americans, British and their allies launched "Operation Overlord," the biggest amphibious landing of all time. During the operation, Allied and German troops fought each other in one of the fiercest battles of World War II, first on the beaches and then in the countryside of Normandy. When it was over, more than 250,000 soldiers and civilians had been killed or wounded, and Normandy itself was ravaged.

The Only Good German Is a Dead German

There is no shortage of books on the Battle of Normandy, which also goes by the name of D-Day. And the same can be said about films, such as Steven Spielberg's award-winning film "Saving Private Ryan," which was a global success. Indeed, it would almost seem that everything that could be said about the battle has been said.

Still, that didn't deter British historian and best-selling author Antony Beevor from taking another stab at the material. While conducting research for his newest book, "D-Day: The Battle for Normandy," Beevor stumbled upon something that is currently a matter of much debate among experts. If some of these scholars are correct, Allied soldiers committed war crimes in Normandy to a much greater extent than was previously realized.

Beevor extensively quotes reports and memoirs of those who took part in the invasion, many of whom state that American, British and Canadian troops killed German POWs and wounded soldiers. They also reportedly used soldiers belonging to the German Wehrmacht or Waffen SS as human shields and forced them to walk through minefields.

For example, one recounts the tale of a private named Smith, who was fighting with the 79th US Infantry Division. Smith allegedly discovered a room full of wounded Germans in a fortification while he was drunk on Calvados, a local apple brandy. According to the official report: "Declaring to all and sundry that the only good German was a dead one, Smith made good Germans out of several of them before he could be stopped."

In another account, Staff Sergeant Lester Zick reportedly encountered an American soldier on a white horse who was herding 11 prisoners in front of him. He called out to Zick and his men and told them that the prisoners were all Poles, except for two Germans. Then, according to Zick, the soldier took out his pistol "and shot both of them in the back of the head. And we just stood there."

Beevor also quotes John Troy, a soldier with the 8th Infantry Division, who writes of finding the body of an American officer the Germans had tied up and killed because he had been caught carrying a captured German P-38 pistol. Troy describes his reaction in the following way: "When I saw that, I said no souvenirs for me. But, of course, we did it too when we caught (Germans) with American cigarettes on them, or American wristwatches they had on their arms."

Rage and Violence

The issue of war crimes is an incredibly sensitive one. But, in this case, the evidence is overwhelming.




Given the high number of casualties they suffered, Allied paratroopers were particularly determined to exact bloody revenge. Near one village, Audouville-la-Hubert, they massacred 30 captured Wehrmacht soldiers in a single killing spree.

On the beaches, soldiers in an engineering brigade had to protect German prisoners from enraged paratroopers from the 101st Airborne Division, who shouted: "Turn those prisoners over to us. Turn them over to us. We know what to do to them."

When the same LSTs (landing ship tanks) were used to evacuate both German POWs and Allied wounded, the wounded attacked the Germans, and it was only through the intervention of a pharmacist's mate that nothing more serious happened.
 
Not sure how I missed this thread before. I've read a lot of memoirs by US and British soldiers and most mention the execution of German prisoners. A few authors even admitted to doing the killing themselves. Given the numbers of instances I've come across, I would say it was rife. Max Hastings concluded, aside from mass surrenders, Germans surrendering making it to a POW camp was at best 50%. I think he implied it was similar the other way but there were fewer opportunities for the Germans to take prisoners.
 
Not sure how I missed this thread before. I've read a lot of memoirs by US and British soldiers and most mention the execution of German prisoners. A few authors even admitted to doing the killing themselves. Given the numbers of instances I've come across, I would say it was rife. Max Hastings concluded, aside from mass surrenders, Germans surrendering making it to a POW camp was at best 50%. I think he implied it was similar the other way but there were fewer opportunities for the Germans to take prisoners.

Interesting thread.
My father served in the 1st Armored Division from 1942-1945, that is to say from North Africa to the Po Valley. He never mentioned the shooting of pow's although there were apparently opportunities to do so. He did mention that there were sadists in the unit. For example, at the closing of the North Africa campaign, his unit was on a train, I think to Oran, and a couple of soldiers were shooting Arabs for kicks from the train as if they were paper targets.
Benjamin
 

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