Darker side of D Day (3 Viewers)

[larso]

"They also reportedly used soldiers belonging to the German Wehrmacht or Waffen SS as human shields and forced them to walk through minefields."

Donald Burgett in his 'A Screaming Eagle at Normandy' wrote of hearding a group of POWs towards enemy machine-guns in an effort to dissuade the gunners from shooting - they weren't!


"Beevor also quotes John Troy, a soldier with the 8th Infantry Division, who writes of finding the body of an American officer the Germans had tied up and killed because he had been caught carrying a captured German P-38 pistol. Troy describes his reaction in the following way: "When I saw that, I said no souvenirs for me. But, of course, we did it too when we caught (Germans) with American cigarettes on them, or American wristwatches they had on their arms." "

I've come across this in at least two memoirs - Frank Irgang's 'Etched in Purple' and I think also Michael Bilder's 'Foot Soldier for Patton'.

A similarily outrageous thing was the turning over of German POWs to French Resistance groups for 'guarding'. No prizes for guessing what often happened next...

I must learn how to use the quote function....

 

[Rob]

"They also reportedly used soldiers belonging to the German Wehrmacht or Waffen SS as human shields and forced them to walk through minefields."

Donald Burgett in his 'A Screaming Eagle at Normandy' wrote of hearding a group of POWs towards enemy machine-guns in an effort to dissuade the gunners from shooting - they weren't!


"Beevor also quotes John Troy, a soldier with the 8th Infantry Division, who writes of finding the body of an American officer the Germans had tied up and killed because he had been caught carrying a captured German P-38 pistol. Troy describes his reaction in the following way: "When I saw that, I said no souvenirs for me. But, of course, we did it too when we caught (Germans) with American cigarettes on them, or American wristwatches they had on their arms." "

I've come across this in at least two memoirs - Frank Irgang's 'Etched in Purple' and I think also Michael Bilder's 'Foot Soldier for Patton'.

A similarily outrageous thing was the turning over of German POWs to French Resistance groups for 'guarding'. No prizes for guessing what often happened next...

I must learn how to use the quote function....

Very interesting post, thanks for posting. I guess we should take into consideration how high feelings and anger were running very high in France at that time, when we consider what their country suffered at the hands of the Germans and the pure joy of the thought of liberation then its not surprising there was retribution to be meted out. I understand as the Germans gradually retreated from Normandy French, resistance and just plain old civilians came out and took their revenge on groups or single fleeing Germans. I doubt it will ever be known how many were murdered as they tried to leave the area on foot, bike, truck wagon or however they could get away. It must have been a frightening end for many Germans as they were hunted down like animals by groups of enraged Frenchman.

Rob

 

[Bayern]

Very interesting post, thanks for posting. I guess we should take into consideration how high feelings and anger were running very high in France at that time, when we consider what their country suffered at the hands of the Germans and the pure joy of the thought of liberation then its not surprising there was retribution to be meted out. I understand as the Germans gradually retreated from Normandy French, resistance and just plain old civilians came out and took their revenge on groups or single fleeing Germans. I doubt it will ever be known how many were murdered as they tried to leave the area on foot, bike, truck wagon or however they could get away. It must have been a frightening end for many Germans as they were hunted down like animals by groups of enraged Frenchman.

Rob

...To go a little off subject they apparently just caught up with Lazlo Csatary whom was the police chief in the Slovakian city of Kosice, at the time part of Hungary, and played a "key role" in the deportation of 300 Jews in the summer of 1941 to Ukraine, where they were killed. Csatary also is suspected of helping organize the 1944 deportation of some 15,700 Jews to the Auschwitz death camp. The Hungarian's are preparing their investigation right now for Csatary, I believe he is the highest Nazi on the SW Foundations list.

If it is him.....let justice be served.

Ludwig

 

[Rob]

...To go a little off subject they apparently just caught up with Lazlo Csatary whom was the police chief in the Slovakian city of Kosice, at the time part of Hungary, and played a "key role" in the deportation of 300 Jews in the summer of 1941 to Ukraine, where they were killed. Csatary also is suspected of helping organize the 1944 deportation of some 15,700 Jews to the Auschwitz death camp. The Hungarian's are preparing their investigation right now for Csatary, I believe he is the highest Nazi on the SW Foundations list.

If it is him.....let justice be served.

Ludwig

Ludwig, thanks for posting this.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

I think we are broadening the original question that Rob posed but, its a fascinating topic. I remember reading a very pertinant article in the journal of historical review by a Martin Brech. He was a camp guard in a large POW camp for germans and was appalled at the way these POW's (actually due to eisenhowers declassification they were not covered by the geneva convention) were treat.

I remember reading this and then a few more accounts and, some bibliography work that further supported the way that allied personal and, military commanders allowed almost 2 million german prisoners to die of starvation and diesese. This was after the end of hostilities!!!

This was probably one of the worst atrocities played against POW's in the western theatre of war and, was done so expressly on the orders of the allied high command.

For me, I can see no other reason than wanting to eradicate a substantial number of germans by just letting them die for the sake of it. Its beyond comprehension when the allies waged a moral crusade and, an almost viceral good V evil campaign that it could happen.

I cannot think of a comparable german atrocity against POW's and have to go to the far east to see such barabaric treatment. When we talk of killing POW's what we saw on all sides really pales into insignificance when we discuss this episode
Mitch

 

[Bayern]

I think we are broadening the original question that Rob posed but, its a fascinating topic. I remember reading a very pertinant article in the journal of historical review by a Martin Brech. He was a camp guard in a large POW camp for germans and was appalled at the way these POW's (actually due to eisenhowers declassification they were not covered by the geneva convention) were treat.

I remember reading this and then a few more accounts and, some bibliography work that further supported the way that allied personal and, military commanders allowed almost 2 million german prisoners to die of starvation and diesese. This was after the end of hostilities!!!

This was probably one of the worst atrocities played against POW's in the western theatre of war and, was done so expressly on the orders of the allied high command.

For me, I can see no other reason than wanting to eradicate a substantial number of germans by just letting them die for the sake of it. Its beyond comprehension when the allies waged a moral crusade and, an almost viceral good V evil campaign that it could happen.

I cannot think of a comparable german atrocity against POW's and have to go to the far east to see such barabaric treatment. When we talk of killing POW's what we saw on all sides really pales into insignificance when we discuss this episode
Mitch

Wow Mitch. In all my life I have never seen anyone talk about this type of thing...like this thread has. When you are German, you still have to deal with the...OH, your German...and the looks as you travel about. I have people flat out ask me are you a Nazi and often when they hear my accent or see my passport...I can liken it only to how different races of people must feel when they are looked down upon because of the color of their skin.

These are stories that need to be told if we are going to really have learned from the tragedy that is War.
Not many will go there but I am proud someone is doing this.

It boils down to this. We can not let anyone have power to do this. Power corrupts even the best of us. We need laws governing to prevent. Maybe someday we can help to end this in so many countries where genocide and starvation is still occurring. Can you even imagine standing there and watching people starve to death. I saw it happen in the occupation. Women in my family resorting to prostitution to feed everyone. Men being killed because someone wanted their girlfriend or wife. When questioned they would say he was a war criminal.....and that was it. You cannot give any man this kind of power. Why....because this is the kind of thing any one of us is capable of.....if we have it.

Ludwig

 

[larso]

"I remember reading this and then a few more accounts and, some bibliography work that further supported the way that allied personal and, military commanders allowed almost 2 million german prisoners to die of starvation and diesese. This was after the end of hostilities!!!"

The mass deaths of Germans POWs is a hoax - at least in the case of prisoners held by the Western Allies. Those held by the Russians is a different story...

 

[Mitch]

I would have to disagree about hoax. There is substantial evidence even after refuting some of Basque's early claims that the numbers are reasonably accurate and, there is no denial about the declassification of german POWs to DEF's which allowed their treatment to be shockingly poor and for large number to die in appalling conditions after hostilities had ended well into 1948.

The scientific commision for the history of german prisoners more commonly refered to as the Maschke commision is a reliable source from that period. They produced 22 volumes of work over a sixteen year period. but, of the 6 million or so POW's the allies (western) held substantial numbers over 1 million have just fallen off the map and could not be traced from the allied side not the russians.

Even if we accept ambrose et al and their claim that between one and five per cent died in this manner after being reclassified its still a huge number and allowing them to be stripped of POW status ensured their deaths.
Mitch

"I remember reading this and then a few more accounts and, some bibliography work that further supported the way that allied personal and, military commanders allowed almost 2 million german prisoners to die of starvation and diesese. This was after the end of hostilities!!!"

The mass deaths of Germans POWs is a hoax - at least in the case of prisoners held by the Western Allies. Those held by the Russians is a different story...

 

[Bayern]

I think we are broadening the original question that Rob posed but, its a fascinating topic. I remember reading a very pertinant article in the journal of historical review by a Martin Brech. He was a camp guard in a large POW camp for germans and was appalled at the way these POW's (actually due to eisenhowers declassification they were not covered by the geneva convention) were treat.

I remember reading this and then a few more accounts and, some bibliography work that further supported the way that allied personal and, military commanders allowed almost 2 million german prisoners to die of starvation and diesese. This was after the end of hostilities!!!

This was probably one of the worst atrocities played against POW's in the western theatre of war and, was done so expressly on the orders of the allied high command.

For me, I can see no other reason than wanting to eradicate a substantial number of germans by just letting them die for the sake of it. Its beyond comprehension when the allies waged a moral crusade and, an almost viceral good V evil campaign that it could happen.

I cannot think of a comparable german atrocity against POW's and have to go to the far east to see such barabaric treatment. When we talk of killing POW's what we saw on all sides really pales into insignificance when we discuss this episode
Mitch

Agreed. There is always this theory that every German knew about and condoned what was going on in the concentration camps. Because so many were made to believe this......these atrocities occurred; were allowed and condoned. The level of the Holocaust atrocity so shocking had to find a place to go. It was leveled at the German people.........there was apparently not enough action at the Nuremberg Trials.

Changing POW's classifications for the purpose of killing them turned the victors into the same aggressors that did not hold to the Geneva Convention during the war.

Great posts. Those that lived this are becoming less and less every year. Was the treatment deserved? You young men can ponder this for years to come.

Ludwig

 

[Rob]

Agreed. There is always this theory that every German knew about and condoned what was going on in the concentration camps. Because so many were made to believe this......these atrocities occurred; were allowed and condoned. The level of the Holocaust atrocity so shocking had to find a place to go. It was leveled at the German people.........there was apparently not enough action at the Nuremberg Trials.

Changing POW's classifications for the purpose of killing them turned the victors into the same aggressors that did not hold to the Geneva Convention during the war.

Great posts. Those that lived this are becoming less and less every year. Was the treatment deserved? You young men can ponder this for years to come.

Ludwig

Have to raise one point here Ludwig, I don't think many people really think all Germans knew about the Holocaust and all condoned it. I think the real suspicion is that some people who lived in villages and towns near the camps must have known what was going on and did nothing about it. Exactly what they COULD have done about it is unclear, unarmed civilians marching up the road against their regime would have probably ended up as guests in the aforementioned camps, if they hadn't been machine gunned first of course.

The trouble is Ludwig is that the world watched as millions of ordinary Germans all but worshipped Hitler during his rise and early victories, it appeared the whole of Germany loved him when he was winning, so a lot of people have blamed the German people of that generation as a whole. 'Millions loved him so they must of approved of the Holocaust' type of thing, its not true, its incorrect but its a human reaction of millions tired from two wars started by Germany. Whilst I can fully understand why the US and Brits who liberated the camps shot dead guards and forced locals at gunpoint to clear bodies, I'm not sure what a handful of locals could have done.

Its another terrible element of a terrible war, thank God the Allied Nations came together to remove that piece of filth and his cohorts and free Europe and of course Germany.

Rob

 

[waynepoo]

Have to raise one point here Ludwig, I don't think many people really think all Germans knew about the Holocaust and all condoned it. I think the real suspicion is that some people who lived in villages and towns near the camps must have known what was going on and did nothing about it. Exactly what they COULD have done about it is unclear, unarmed civilians marching up the road against their regime would have probably ended up as guests in the aforementioned camps, if they hadn't been machine gunned first of course.

The trouble is Ludwig is that the world watched as millions of ordinary Germans all but worshipped Hitler during his rise and early victories, it appeared the whole of Germany loved him when he was winning, so a lot of people have blamed the German people of that generation as a whole. 'Millions loved him so they must of approved of the Holocaust' type of thing, its not true, its incorrect but its a human reaction of millions tired from two wars started by Germany. Whilst I can fully understand why the US and Brits who liberated the camps shot dead guards and forced locals at gunpoint to clear bodies, I'm not sure what a handful of locals could have done.

Its another terrible element of a terrible war, thank God the Allied Nations came together to remove that piece of filth and his cohorts and free Europe and of course Germany.

Rob

One thing we must always remember Hitler could not have risen to power without the support of the greater part of the German people in the 1930's, some may not like it but it is a fact.
Wayne.

 

[Bayern]

Have to raise one point here Ludwig, I don't think many people really think all Germans knew about the Holocaust and all condoned it. I think the real suspicion is that some people who lived in villages and towns near the camps must have known what was going on and did nothing about it. Exactly what they COULD have done about it is unclear, unarmed civilians marching up the road against their regime would have probably ended up as guests in the aforementioned camps, if they hadn't been machine gunned first of course.

The trouble is Ludwig is that the world watched as millions of ordinary Germans all but worshipped Hitler during his rise and early victories, it appeared the whole of Germany loved him when he was winning, so a lot of people have blamed the German people of that generation as a whole. 'Millions loved him so they must of approved of the Holocaust' type of thing, its not true, its incorrect but its a human reaction of millions tired from two wars started by Germany. Whilst I can fully understand why the US and Brits who liberated the camps shot dead guards and forced locals at gunpoint to clear bodies, I'm not sure what a handful of locals could have done.

Its another terrible element of a terrible war, thank God the Allied Nations came together to remove that piece of filth and his cohorts and free Europe and of course Germany.

Rob

Rob, just love reading your posts as with Mitch's. It is the fact that we are discussing this...is a tribute to the world, our children, and so on. May the world never forget the horrors.

The problem is we all apparently did................or what are we doing about this.....Why is America, France all allies UN and the UK ...etc.....not ending this similar genocides occurring right now in the world. Like in Darfur, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Korbia, the Kurds still being genocided in Syria and Iran etc....? Is it because it is not happening on the European continent?

Heck of a question is it not. Is it because we do not care.....or the money....not enough oil there...????

Not to cool our we. We did not learn jack diddly squat as they in the south..

What is it. Apparently the Holocaust was not enough? Think about it.

The world watched while millions of ordinary people in Africa and the middle east genocide their people......we are still watching...and doing NOTHING.

Ludwig

 

[Mitch]

I think if we are going down the holocaust road we are on a slippery slope as some will not be able to hold their emotions in however, while its calm. I think Rob raises some interesting points on the subject. We know how things panned out but, after the serious problems germany faced after the first world war as ludicrous as it sounds today Hitler roused national pride with both hands and invigorated a proud nation that was on its knee's in terms of the defeat and, financially. Hitler cleverly offered a stable platform for the common german bread and meat on their plates and, work.

Was it all a real or, a charade? of course it was the latter but, Hitler did not happen without the support of the vast majority of germans, not even those who were party members, just normal german citizens. He was also hugely helped on his way to start the second world war by the allies themselves.

It will always be a contentious issue who knew what in relation to the camps. I would venture from what we know now that many thousands if not millions would have known but, in a totalitarian state what can you do, as Rob states. Mouth off and your one of the inmates and, whether we now scorn their neglect self preservation is a massive factor in their reactions. I always could never believe germans I have spoken to or, have read who did not know. Its been written of residents who lived next to a camp that at certain times of the day a acrid smell would envelope the area and, peoples homes would be covered in a thin layer of dust (undoubtedly, human remains that was difficult to remove) When you see people entering an area and a camp have those sorts of smells and physical evidence on your property what other conclusion is there to draw? Hell, even the allies knew about the death camps and, what was going on as they discussed, in detail, whether to divert bomber command to bomb the camps.

The camps, murder of POW's and other atrocities are all easier to deny knowledge of for some for fear of implication but, again its easy to point the finger today and say this or that. it is great that we can discuss this though as its what interests all of us on here
Mitch

 

[waynepoo]

Rob, just love reading your posts as with Mitch's. It is the fact that we are discussing this...is a tribute to the world, our children, and so on. May the world never forget the horrors.

The problem is we all apparently did................or what are we doing about this.....Why is America, France all allies UN and the UK ...etc.....not ending this similar genocides occurring right now in the world. Like in Darfur, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Korbia, the Kurds still being genocided in Syria and Iran etc....? Is it because it is not happening on the European continent?

Heck of a question is it not. Is it because we do not care.....or the money....not enough oil there...????

Not to cool our we. We did not learn jack diddly squat as they in the south..

What is it. Apparently the Holocaust was not enough? Think about it.

The world watched while millions of ordinary people in Africa and the middle east genocide their people......we are still watching...and doing NOTHING.

Ludwig

The reason is as it has always been...politics, and don't forget to add China and Russia to the above list.
Wayne.

 

[VIRIATO]

With all due respect I think that this idea that we the «good guys» can and should get anywhere and correct all the atrocities/wrongdoing everywhere by throwing armies around is nothing more than a fantasy. Here we can get into nation building by foreigners, trying to change old cultures suddenly, imposing our will on others, etc... A proven recipe for failure, just look at History. I am not saying nothing should be done, but armed force is sometimes just not the way, neither right nor effective, other ways can be explored I guess...
Call it RealPolitik if you'd like...

My 2 cents,
Paulo

 

[Rob]

One thing we must always remember Hitler could not have risen to power without the support of the greater part of the German people in the 1930's, some may not like it but it is a fact.
Wayne.

Very true indeed.

Rob, just love reading your posts as with Mitch's. It is the fact that we are discussing this...is a tribute to the world, our children, and so on. May the world never forget the horrors.

The problem is we all apparently did................or what are we doing about this.....Why is America, France all allies UN and the UK ...etc.....not ending this similar genocides occurring right now in the world. Like in Darfur, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Korbia, the Kurds still being genocided in Syria and Iran etc....? Is it because it is not happening on the European continent?

Heck of a question is it not. Is it because we do not care.....or the money....not enough oil there...????

Not to cool our we. We did not learn jack diddly squat as they in the south..

What is it. Apparently the Holocaust was not enough? Think about it.

The world watched while millions of ordinary people in Africa and the middle east genocide their people......we are still watching...and doing NOTHING.

Ludwig

The reason is as it has always been...politics, and don't forget to add China and Russia to the above list.
Wayne.

Ludwig I think Wayne has nailed it, politics.

With all due respect I think that this idea that we the «good guys» can and should get anywhere and correct all the atrocities/wrongdoing everywhere by throwing armies around is nothing more than a fantasy. Here we can get into nation building by foreigners, trying to change old cultures suddenly, imposing our will on others, etc... A proven recipe for failure, just look at History. I am not saying nothing should be done, but armed force is sometimes just not the way, neither right nor effective, other ways can be explored I guess...
Call it RealPolitik if you'd like...

My 2 cents,
Paulo

Paulo I think you are right here in that we cannot go sticking our noses in anywhere, however I do think WW2 was a different world altogether. The civilized world was under imminent danger and a cloud of racism, hatred and bigotry hung across Europe , if it was to be stopped from spreading even further it had to be eradicated.

Rob

 

[Rob]

I think if we are going down the holocaust road we are on a slippery slope as some will not be able to hold their emotions in however, while its calm. I think Rob raises some interesting points on the subject. We know how things panned out but, after the serious problems germany faced after the first world war as ludicrous as it sounds today Hitler roused national pride with both hands and invigorated a proud nation that was on its knee's in terms of the defeat and, financially. Hitler cleverly offered a stable platform for the common german bread and meat on their plates and, work.

Was it all a real or, a charade? of course it was the latter but, Hitler did not happen without the support of the vast majority of germans, not even those who were party members, just normal german citizens. He was also hugely helped on his way to start the second world war by the allies themselves.

It will always be a contentious issue who knew what in relation to the camps. I would venture from what we know now that many thousands if not millions would have known but, in a totalitarian state what can you do, as Rob states. Mouth off and your one of the inmates and, whether we now scorn their neglect self preservation is a massive factor in their reactions. I always could never believe germans I have spoken to or, have read who did not know. Its been written of residents who lived next to a camp that at certain times of the day a acrid smell would envelope the area and, peoples homes would be covered in a thin layer of dust (undoubtedly, human remains that was difficult to remove) When you see people entering an area and a camp have those sorts of smells and physical evidence on your property what other conclusion is there to draw? Hell, even the allies knew about the death camps and, what was going on as they discussed, in detail, whether to divert bomber command to bomb the camps.

The camps, murder of POW's and other atrocities are all easier to deny knowledge of for some for fear of implication but, again its easy to point the finger today and say this or that. it is great that we can discuss this though as its what interests all of us on here
Mitch

I do agree, Hitler caught Germany at a very low ebb and made the most of it exploiting the fears of the people and promising them a glorious future, he duped them and ruined their country.

Rob

 

[Bayern]

With all due respect I think that this idea that we the «good guys» can and should get anywhere and correct all the atrocities/wrongdoing everywhere by throwing armies around is nothing more than a fantasy. Here we can get into nation building by foreigners, trying to change old cultures suddenly, imposing our will on others, etc... A proven recipe for failure, just look at History. I am not saying nothing should be done, but armed force is sometimes just not the way, neither right nor effective, other ways can be explored I guess...
Call it RealPolitik if you'd like...

My 2 cents,
Paulo

The reason is as it has always been...politics, and don't forget to add China and Russia to the above list.
Wayne.

I think if we are going down the holocaust road we are on a slippery slope as some will not be able to hold their emotions in however, while its calm. I think Rob raises some interesting points on the subject. We know how things panned out but, after the serious problems germany faced after the first world war as ludicrous as it sounds today Hitler roused national pride with both hands and invigorated a proud nation that was on its knee's in terms of the defeat and, financially. Hitler cleverly offered a stable platform for the common german bread and meat on their plates and, work.

Was it all a real or, a charade? of course it was the latter but, Hitler did not happen without the support of the vast majority of germans, not even those who were party members, just normal german citizens. He was also hugely helped on his way to start the second world war by the allies themselves.

It will always be a contentious issue who knew what in relation to the camps. I would venture from what we know now that many thousands if not millions would have known but, in a totalitarian state what can you do, as Rob states. Mouth off and your one of the inmates and, whether we now scorn their neglect self preservation is a massive factor in their reactions. I always could never believe germans I have spoken to or, have read who did not know. Its been written of residents who lived next to a camp that at certain times of the day a acrid smell would envelope the area and, peoples homes would be covered in a thin layer of dust (undoubtedly, human remains that was difficult to remove) When you see people entering an area and a camp have those sorts of smells and physical evidence on your property what other conclusion is there to draw? Hell, even the allies knew about the death camps and, what was going on as they discussed, in detail, whether to divert bomber command to bomb the camps.

The camps, murder of POW's and other atrocities are all easier to deny knowledge of for some for fear of implication but, again its easy to point the finger today and say this or that. it is great that we can discuss this though as its what interests all of us on here
Mitch

One thing we must always remember Hitler could not have risen to power without the support of the greater part of the German people in the 1930's, some may not like it but it is a fact.
Wayne.

I do agree, Hitler caught Germany at a very low ebb and made the most of it exploiting the fears of the people and promising them a glorious future, he duped them and ruined their country.

Rob

I tried to catch everyone's GREAT input. If I missed I apologize. I am out of one meeting and on the way to another. Only a few minutes. Be back on later.

This is so important that we write this stuff on places like this forum. Perhaps this can be our stamp on the world instead of just our carbon footprint....of adding to waste at the landfill. I spent quite a bit of time in Tanzania and Kenya etc in the past and just fell in love with Africa. I wish there was something that I could do. I fear what has been said is right. Today things are so entwined....what can you do. You do this then that happens to them to him to her to that...it is unbelievable....you cannot seem to move on anything. Did we do right in Iraq? Or will it just go back to how it was? I shudder to think.
A great sadness indeed.
Keep talking about it...keep this post going for the new young ones to read......that is what we old guys need do....that could be a legacy in itself.

Ludwig all of yours friend.

 

[uksubs]

Have to raise one point here Ludwig, I don't think many people really think all Germans knew about the Holocaust and all condoned it. I think the real suspicion is that some people who lived in villages and towns near the camps must have known what was going on and did nothing about it. Exactly what they COULD have done about it is unclear, unarmed civilians marching up the road against their regime would have probably ended up as guests in the aforementioned camps, if they hadn't been machine gunned first of course.



Rob

You make a very good point Rob , when we went to the concention camp near Munich the tour guide raised the same point that many. Germans said they never know of the camps and then pointed out all the smaller camps all over Munich made you think

 

[Bayern]

You make a very good point Rob , when we went to the concention camp near Munich the tour guide raised the same point that many. Germans said they never know of the camps and then pointed out all the smaller camps all over Munich made you think

I have an interesting read for you uksubs.

Pick up Imperial Reckoning by Caroline Elkins.

Here is the basics of it As part of the Allied forces, thousands of Kenyans fought alongside the British in World War II. But just a few years after the defeat of Hitler, the British colonial government detained nearly the entire population of Kenya's largest ethnic minority, the Kikuyu-some one and a half million people.

The compelling story of the system of prisons and work camps where thousands met their deaths has remained largely untold-the victim of a determined effort by the British to destroy all official records of their attempts to stop the Mau Mau uprising, the Kikuyu people's ultimately successful bid for Kenyan independence.

Caroline Elkins, an assistant professor of history at Harvard University, spent a decade in London, Nairobi, and the Kenyan countryside interviewing hundreds of Kikuyu men and women who survived the British camps, as well as the British and African loyalists who detained them.

I suppose since this was not in Munchen...and no tour guide to point it out............no one new about it in the UK.

When you finish the book let us comment on it.

Ludwig