Darker side of D Day (1 Viewer)

Poppo...

You are quite right Harris was wanting to bomb germany into submission and, he thought, advocated and had the means to try and do this.

I am not sure if the motives behind were exactly the same Harris was wanting to win a war against an enemy that had invaded other countries that we were allied to causing us to declare war on them. I think when you take the gloves off in a world war that was classified readily and quickly by the germans as total war then, civillians always will bear the brunt. Your argument rest with two wrongs don't make a right and, while I agree with you to a certain extent germany was still a potent enemy even at that late stage in the war.

Where does one draw the line with carpet bombing? we know from the spirit and endurance of the brits in the blitz that bombing does not break a population but, Harris and many others at that time had to do something to show we were taking the fight to the enemy. I know that masses of forces both ground and in the air were restricted from fighting on fronts because of the air war and, the appalling loss of life for the air crews would probably have been doubled or more had germans had this available resources at the front. I think though you should remember that Hitler said there were no civillians in total war and, if thats good enough for him and the way they waged war on other then, surely, he could and nor could the german people expect anything less

As for Historians some say the bombing was wrong some don't many stay away from it. I have read Beevor's work and spoken many times with him but, again we are blinded by the fact that we address these events with hindsight that was not available to those taking the decisions. Its terrible that civillians died but, they did. Hitler and his command acted in the way they saw fit and we and the rest of the allies did the same. We can now with the freedom these people gave us crawl all over their actions and say 70 years later they were wrong but, tough decisions are made in war and we had tough men making them.

Does not make it right or wrong but, they are the ones fighting for their country. What is good is that we are debating these issues and accepting each others comments in the right spirit
Mitch

Yes, at least the 50 millions dead of second war have changed the world into a civilized one....Since the roman times, the aim of the states was to invade other nations...till second war. Now, the price of a single human life is very expensive and no nation would dare to start a real war;
 
Bloody interesting thread. Everything from Colonial brit acts, to POW's, to the political era of nazi germany and the holocaust to carpet bombing and, not a cross word.
Mitch

Mitch, it can be done!^&grin

I started this thread because we rarely hear of the killing of German POW's on D Day, but it must have happened.Its then gone onto all points west up to WW2 bombing. All WW2 Bombing was terrible for those killed whatever country they were in, we can debate the ethics of it but its perhaps unfair to berate those who carried it out because at the end of the day the world stood on the edge of total darkness and the weight we put on these people's shoulders was something we can't really comprehend.

Never though this thread would last so long or get so interesting Mitch!

Rob
 
Yes, at least the 50 millions dead of second war have changed the world into a civilized one....Since the roman times, the aim of the states was to invade other nations...till second war. Now, the price of a single human life is very expensive and no nation would dare to start a real war;

Mitch, it can be done!^&grin

I started this thread because we rarely hear of the killing of German POW's on D Day, but it must have happened.Its then gone onto all points west up to WW2 bombing. All WW2 Bombing was terrible for those killed whatever country they were in, we can debate the ethics of it but its perhaps unfair to berate those who carried it out because at the end of the day the world stood on the edge of total darkness and the weight we put on these people's shoulders was something we can't really comprehend.

Never though this thread would last so long or get so interesting Mitch!

Rob

Never though this thread would last so long or get so interesting Mitch!

All the points of view and differing posts go to show that people are questioning; discussing; arguing and what does that do? That puts this out there for the world to stumble on and read. Heck, who knows.....we may change something yet!

There is no one of us from any color, creed, walk of life any better then anyone else. I can tell you this......once one accepts this their life will improve 100%...doors will open and blessings will come.

However....I still do not trust a man....without a woman and a dog. Now get in the frickin chat room and post on my "dog thread...go figure!!!

PS; If no dog go get one at a shelter.

Ludwig!!! von Bayern
 
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Very true indeed.





Ludwig I think Wayne has nailed it, politics.



Paulo I think you are right here in that we cannot go sticking our noses in anywhere, however I do think WW2 was a different world altogether. The civilized world was under imminent danger and a cloud of racism, hatred and bigotry hung across Europe , if it was to be stopped from spreading even further it had to be eradicated.

Rob

Yes, WW2 was something different, the threat was just on another level so no choice...

Paulo
 
I agree with the total war argument, total war brought gloves off and total reprisal. Were Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki necessary? The discussion will go on forever, but very probably the people in charge at the time thought that they were absolutely necessary and had to decide without the benefit of hindsight.
Today's Western war standards are certainly different, but there are those that are still willing to make war on the West without regard for such standards. Can we fight them and respect our standards? I guess there is a point in war when standards just become secondary stuff, probably when the wall gets nearer to one's back...^&grin But still, trying to wipe out an entire race is something I find impossible to come from the «good guys»...


Paulo
 
I agree with the total war argument, total war brought gloves off and total reprisal. Were Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki necessary? The discussion will go on forever, but very probably the people in charge at the time thought that they were absolutely necessary and had to decide without the benefit of hindsight.
Today's Western war standards are certainly different, but there are those that are still willing to make war on the West without regard for such standards. Can we fight them and respect our standards? I guess there is a point in war when standards just become secondary stuff, probably when the wall gets nearer to one's back...^&grin But still, trying to wipe out an entire race is something I find impossible to come from the «good guys»...


Paulo

Great post.
The point I try to make clear is it so no less an evil to try and destroy an entire sect then a race, just because they did not get as far. Many countries have attempted this and still are. I tire so of the what I call German bashing over what Hitlers regime did, then when someone brings up what the bashers country did, they go all ape over it and go into size comparisons.
However, this is what Germans will have to deal with.....forever apparently.

Keep this post alive. Good things being said and felt and learned.

No matter what know that I just love everyone's point of view here.

I wont be around forever and God knows most Germans will not even discuss this issue.

Ludwig
 
Great post.
The point I try to make clear is it so no less an evil to try and destroy an entire sect then a race, just because they did not get as far. Many countries have attempted this and still are. I tire so of the what I call German bashing over what Hitlers regime did, then when someone brings up what the bashers country did, they go all ape over it and go into size comparisons.
However, this is what Germans will have to deal with.....forever apparently.

Keep this post alive. Good things being said and felt and learned.

No matter what know that I just love everyone's point of view here.

I wont be around forever and God knows most Germans will not even discuss this issue.

Ludwig

I think Germans have shown to be a great people...They totally turned the page of those terrible times, very clearly con****ed the nazi period in all aspects and now Germany is maybe the most civilized, modern, open minded country in the world...Unfortunatley, other countries like Italy haven' t been able to turn the page, and in italy are still many who have communism or fascism nostalgia. A country who can' t turn the page and still live with the ghosts of the past, can not enter the future.
 
Once the op orders come down, every soldier takes a moment to reflect inwardly on two age old questons- will I be able to kill another man and will I surrender?? Lots of bravado and chest thumping goes on but no one really knows till the metal hits the meat. The decision to raise the white flag and stand tall with hands in the air is a calculated gamble at best. Trigger fingers can be jumpy given the heat of the moment, as well as the fact that 18-20 year old men are generally on the other end of the equation- they may be stressed out to the point of irrationality and simply fire out of gut instinct, or perhaps it could be something even less mechanical- Jody may have sent me a letter breaking up with me, my mom may have sent me a letter telling me my brother totaled my car or even the fact that Cocoa puffs werent offered this morning and woe unto whatever German soldier crosses my sights this morning, he's gonna meet his maker.

Irrespective, Rob, I think you hit the nail on the head- Germany was the architect of their own demise. Every American citizen I have ever spoken with is pretty confident of that position and fully accepting of the battlefield justice that was metted out by our boys. I cannot recall one person gasping in horror as German soldiers were shot up when surrendering when we were all watching Saving Private Ryan, in fact, it seemed quite the opposite, especially when Tom Hanks character made the decision to let the one German return to the rear when he surrendered.

I could personally care less what happened to the German soldiers when they surrendered. Would I have shot em up??? More than likely not, really isnt the conclusion I ever reached when I had to answer the questions above. The men who lived, fought and died in that conflict settled their own issues on their own terms. Saints??? maybe not, but heroes, you better believe it- every last one to a man. And their legacy should always be remembered as that. You may/may not believe in a religious ideology, I do, but I do know for a fact the sacrifices that those guys made at places called Normandy, Point du Hoc, Iwo, Okinawa, etc etc mean that I am able to arise in the morning and live my life and love my family however I see fit- not idol worshipping some megalomanical corporal.

It does sadden me deeply to think of the women and children who suffered at Dresden and subsequently with the use of the atom bombs. But the United States has learned from those mistakes- anyone care to read how stringent the ROE (Rules of Engagement) are today. It would make your mind dizzy with the EXTRAORDINARY measures we undertake to ensure that civilian casualties are minimized. If there is one good thing that came from Dresden and the atomic weapons, it is that!!

I cannot say I go out of my way to be especially kind to any German I meet today. I accept that as my character flaw, nothing more. I certainly do not raise my children to reflect my thoughts. Why?? Well, I saw what the effects of WW2 (Korea and Nam) did to my hero- my grandfather. I look around at all the monuments decorating the landscapes of my nation and can honestly think of the exponential pain and suffering that those families went through because of one undisputed fact- GERMANY SENT US OVER THERE AGAIN!!! History proved Pershing correct- the German had to know he was beaten and in May 1945, with Berlin in utter ruins, he knew it and we haven't had to do it a third time.

So,thats my thought on the subject- put em against the wall, two in the chest and one in the head or send them to the pen....these HEROES settled things on their terms and I have learned to live with and fully accept that. THey made their choices. Anyone who sees it differently might want to pull their noses out of a book and look at human nature and be ETERNALLY grateful they never EVER had to be placed in the horrific situations that 1939-1945 placed so many of them in.
 
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Amen, Chris. Best post I have read. The 'Greatest Generation' did what had to be done, and I for one have never questioned or ever will question the methods that were neccesary to win a war that threatened the very existence of man and freedom. -- Al
 
This thread is testament to the fact that history cannot simply be understood through the rose colored glasses a particular nation's memory. Forums like this bring the world together in interesting ways. No longer can we post our nation's 'rhetoric' as hard and fast truth, since it is human nature to put yourself in the best light (especially in times of war). We come up against people with vastly different understandings of the world...and history.

For example, Brits and Germans will see Dresden quite differently. Americans north and south will differ on whether Sherman's march to the sea was a good thing (or evil). I don't see either side 'convincing' the other that they are wrong.

The challenge is to hear 'opposing' viewpoints without insisting that they see it the same way as you do. Frankly, I have enjoyed seeing that happen on this thread.

Sometimes, at the end of the day, we agree to disagree.
 
This thread is testament to the fact that history cannot simply be understood through the rose colored glasses a particular nation's memory. Forums like this bring the world together in interesting ways. No longer can we post our nation's 'rhetoric' as hard and fast truth, since it is human nature to put yourself in the best light (especially in times of war). We come up against people with vastly different understandings of the world...and history.

For example, Brits and Germans will see Dresden quite differently. Americans north and south will differ on whether Sherman's march to the sea was a good thing (or evil). I don't see either side 'convincing' the other that they are wrong.

The challenge is to hear 'opposing' viewpoints without insisting that they see it the same way as you do. Frankly, I have enjoyed seeing that happen on this thread.

Sometimes, at the end of the day, we agree to disagree.

Great post Peter. I agree with many points of yours and everyone's thread.

I like your synopsis of the rhetoric. It is always the fashion of the winners of wars to write the history in their favor. Some people believe the Americans waged genocide against the American Indian...other do not. It is all relative to who you are, where you are from and how you were raised and what you were taught. In America for two hundred years they were taught that Columbus discovered America. We all know that not to be true now. However, I think they may still be teaching it in schools or just recently changed it if so.

It is unfortunate, that only a minority of people study beyond family and school curriculum to learn and grow and confront their own face in a mirror......and change.

I also think it is a tribute to mankind that this post is happening. Let it continue.

Ludwig
 
Once the op orders come down, every soldier takes a moment to reflect inwardly on two age old questons- will I be able to kill another man and will I surrender?? Lots of bravado and chest thumping goes on but no one really knows till the metal hits the meat. The decision to raise the white flag and stand tall with hands in the air is a calculated gamble at best. Trigger fingers can be jumpy given the heat of the moment, as well as the fact that 18-20 year old men are generally on the other end of the equation- they may be stressed out to the point of irrationality and simply fire out of gut instinct, or perhaps it could be something even less mechanical- Jody may have sent me a letter breaking up with me, my mom may have sent me a letter telling me my brother totaled my car or even the fact that Cocoa puffs werent offered this morning and woe unto whatever German soldier crosses my sights this morning, he's gonna meet his maker.

Irrespective, Rob, I think you hit the nail on the head- Germany was the architect of their own demise. Every American citizen I have ever spoken with is pretty confident of that position and fully accepting of the battlefield justice that was metted out by our boys. I cannot recall one person gasping in horror as German soldiers were shot up when surrendering when we were all watching Saving Private Ryan, in fact, it seemed quite the opposite, especially when Tom Hanks character made the decision to let the one German return to the rear when he surrendered.

I could personally care less what happened to the German soldiers when they surrendered. Would I have shot em up??? More than likely not, really isnt the conclusion I ever reached when I had to answer the questions above. The men who lived, fought and died in that conflict settled their own issues on their own terms. Saints??? maybe not, but heroes, you better believe it- every last one to a man. And their legacy should always be remembered as that. You may/may not believe in a religious ideology, I do, but I do know for a fact the sacrifices that those guys made at places called Normandy, Point du Hoc, Iwo, Okinawa, etc etc mean that I am able to arise in the morning and live my life and love my family however I see fit- not idol worshipping some megalomanical corporal.


It does sadden me deeply to think of the women and children who suffered at Dresden and subsequently with the use of the atom bombs. But the United States has learned from those mistakes- anyone care to read how stringent the ROE (Rules of Engagement) are today. It would make your mind dizzy with the EXTRAORDINARY measures we undertake to ensure that civilian casualties are minimized. If there is one good thing that came from Dresden and the atomic weapons, it is that!!

I cannot say I go out of my way to be especially kind to any German I meet today. I accept that as my character flaw, nothing more. I certainly do not raise my children to reflect my thoughts. Why?? Well, I saw what the effects of WW2 (Korea and Nam) did to my hero- my grandfather. I look around at all the monuments decorating the landscapes of my nation and can honestly think of the exponential pain and suffering that those families went through because of one undisputed fact- GERMANY SENT US OVER THERE AGAIN!!! History proved Pershing correct- the German had to know he was beaten and in May 1945, with Berlin in utter ruins, he knew it and we haven't had to do it a third time.

So,thats my thought on the subject- put em against the wall, two in the chest and one in the head or send them to the pen....these HEROES settled things on their terms and I have learned to live with and fully accept that. THey made their choices. Anyone who sees it differently might want to pull their noses out of a book and look at human nature and be ETERNALLY grateful they never EVER had to be placed in the horrific situations that 1939-1945 placed so many of them in.

Absolutely spot on here mate. Let no one be in doubt, when I started this thread it was to say that we don't often hear of the execution of German soldiers on D Day, but it was certainly not condemning the men who did it. These guys had the weight of the liberation of Europe from the detestable regime in Nazi Germany , we live a free happy life because of what those guys did and they have my ever lasting gratitude, admiration and respect. Also when you've been machine gunning people all morning and then throw up your hands to the friends of those you killed...well your chances are slim aren't they!{eek3} (it happened in WW1too)

As Paulo said, this was total War , total war against the filth that had spilled out across Europe infecting country after country with its racism and hatred. And what strikes you is how much this was planned to the last detail by the paper hanger and his cohorts in Nazi Germany. In the Imperial War museum there is a book that lists all the prominant Jewish people in England to be killed if they ever dirtied these shores with their presence, and to think there are people who still try and deny the Holocaust ever happened or was organized. Funny thing isn't it, the good countries of the world came together to defeat the Nazi regime and yet we question our behaviour in that war sometimes as if we even had a choice in a war against the people who came up with the Holocaust, killing babies born with learning difficulties, robot missiles designed to kill at random, and medical experiments on children........yeah, call it how you will, but all these guys did a fine job, God bless them.
Rob
 
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Absolutely spot on here mate. Let no one be in doubt, when I started this thread it was to say that we don't often hear of the execution of German soldiers on D Day, but it was certainly not condemning the men who did it. These guys had the weight of the liberation of Europe from the detestable regime in Nazi Germany , we live a free happy life because of what those guys did and they have my ever lasting gratitude, admiration and respect. Also when you've been machine gunning people all morning and then throw up your hands to the friends of those you killed...well your chances are slim aren't they!{eek3} (it happened in WW1too)

As Paulo said, this was total War , total war against the filth that had spilled out across Europe infecting country after country with its racism and hatred. And what strikes you is how much this was planned to the last detail by the paper hanger and his cohorts in Nazi Germany. In the Imperial War museum there is a book that lists all the prominant Jewish people in England to be killed if they ever dirtied these shores with their presence, and to think there are people who still try and deny the Holocaust ever happened or was organized. Funny thing isn't it, the good countries of the world came together to defeat the Nazi regime and yet we question our behaviour in that war sometimes as if we even had a choice in a war against the people who came up with the Holocaust, killing babies born with learning difficulties, robot missiles designed to kill at random, and medical experiments on children........yeah, call it how you will, but all these guys did a fine job, God bless them.
Rob

Great post Rob
 
I would think that the next time we hear comments about german atrocities and similar we will remember Chris' words about settling scores and heroes. They may well have been but, equally those comments can be laid at the doors of the germans and the many other countries that have fought against the allied forces.

Mitch
 
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Great post.
The point I try to make clear is it so no less an evil to try and destroy an entire sect then a race, just because they did not get as far. Many countries have attempted this and still are. I tire so of the what I call German bashing over what Hitlers regime did, then when someone brings up what the bashers country did, they go all ape over it and go into size comparisons.
However, this is what Germans will have to deal with.....forever apparently.

Keep this post alive. Good things being said and felt and learned.

No matter what know that I just love everyone's point of view here.

I wont be around forever and God knows most Germans will not even discuss this issue.

Ludwig

Hi Ludwig, thanks,
I think under the right circunstances any people/country on Earth, including the so called «good guys», can provoke something like the Holocaust. Yes there is a dark side to mankind, regardless of race, borders, etc... It's just there for the taking at the right moment.{eek3} The line no one wants to cross is easily crossable unfortunately. At the moment I don't see anything like that about to happen in the Western world, but they say History repeats itself, so let's keep our fingers crossed. So in my view this kind of thing is not just a German problem, if you take a look at History in depth nobody can boast fully clean hands I guess.

Regards,
Paulo
 
Hi Ludwig, thanks,
I think under the right circunstances any people/country on Earth, including the so called «good guys», can provoke something like the Holocaust. Yes there is a dark side to mankind, regardless of race, borders, etc... It's just there for the taking at the right moment.{eek3} The line no one wants to cross is easily crossable unfortunately. At the moment I don't see anything like that about to happen in the Western world, but they say History repeats itself, so let's keep our fingers crossed. So in my view this kind of thing is not just a German problem, if you take a look at History in depth nobody can boast fully clean hands I guess.

Regards,
Paulo

Thank you Paulo. These things are very true.

The problem that I see is that with all other things the racial attitudes keep making it to the next generations. Most of the children today do not have even a grandfather that was in WW2. They do not know much of the history but they sure know who to hate and profile. I spend much time with businesses in America and migrated family. Most family here do not know past their great grand parents if not just Grand parents. But the stigma carries on.

I have really studied the plight of the American Indian and the African American Slaves. I forever posed the question in my mind why is there still such an issue with the African American racial thing in USA. It has been a long time ago. No one alive in America for generations even has had slaves.

I think I have figured it out at least in part. It is as simple as you cannot have different rules, regulations and even benefits for any one class or race or people.....or the other ones will hate and envy. The ones that had no benefits hate the ones that do. Then when it switches hands the same ugly problem kept on going. It keeps on going.........and going...

Too sad.

Ludwig
 
Thank you Paulo. These things are very true.

The problem that I see is that with all other things the racial attitudes keep making it to the next generations. Most of the children today do not have even a grandfather that was in WW2. They do not know much of the history but they sure know who to hate and profile. I spend much time with businesses in America and migrated family. Most family here do not know past their great grand parents if not just Grand parents. But the stigma carries on.

I have really studied the plight of the American Indian and the African American Slaves. I forever posed the question in my mind why is there still such an issue with the African American racial thing in USA. It has been a long time ago. No one alive in America for generations even has had slaves.

I think I have figured it out at least in part. It is as simple as you cannot have different rules, regulations and even benefits for any one class or race or people.....or the other ones will hate and envy. The ones that had no benefits hate the ones that do. Then when it switches hands the same ugly problem kept on going. It keeps on going.........and going...

Too sad.

Ludwig

2 very interesting historical subjects:

Regarding the indians, honestly I have a strong sympathy for them even if they were killed more than one century ago, because they were persecuted and destroyed sistematically for one century or more and especially after the end of the "war between states". The Union after the civil war hunted and destroyed all the indians while the confederates wanted for assimilate the indians in a more civil way...But the big finance of north needed lands fast, new businesses and so on...They even arrived to use "biological weapons" we can say: giving infected blankets to indians, and the US governments not even respected one single treaty of the several made with indians...

Regarding the african american slaves, it is today a question of "politically correctness".....Amazingly, the US still accuse and blame the southern states for the question of slavery, probably to let forget their faults in social politics, ghettos in big northern cities, segregation of fact...I mean all what happened consequently the sudden liberation of slaves ( this also another responsibility of the big finance, industry of the " New england")
 
This thread is testament to the fact that history cannot simply be understood through the rose colored glasses a particular nation's memory. Forums like this bring the world together in interesting ways. No longer can we post our nation's 'rhetoric' as hard and fast truth, since it is human nature to put yourself in the best light (especially in times of war). We come up against people with vastly different understandings of the world...and history.

For example, Brits and Germans will see Dresden quite differently. Americans north and south will differ on whether Sherman's march to the sea was a good thing (or evil). I don't see either side 'convincing' the other that they are wrong.

The challenge is to hear 'opposing' viewpoints without insisting that they see it the same way as you do. Frankly, I have enjoyed seeing that happen on this thread.

Sometimes, at the end of the day, we agree to disagree.
Forums like this go against freedom of speech. Censoring legitimate points and critisism of products is nothing short of what we fought against.
 
Forums like this go against freedom of speech. Censoring legitimate points and critisism of products is nothing short of what we fought against.

Shouting people down, baiting, deliberate repetitive posts in same thread etc also are an attempt to kill free speech and stop people voicing a different point of view. Both sides views are free speech. Its just whether we have the common decency and courtesy for others when we put our side.

I think the censoring of insults and baiting is essential so everybody and not just those with an agenda of either persuasion for or against can put their point in peace, its an absurd reaction to compare it to Nazism.

Rob
 
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This thread is testament to the fact that history cannot simply be understood through the rose colored glasses a particular nation's memory. Forums like this bring the world together in interesting ways. No longer can we post our nation's 'rhetoric' as hard and fast truth, since it is human nature to put yourself in the best light (especially in times of war). We come up against people with vastly different understandings of the world...and history.

For example, Brits and Germans will see Dresden quite differently. Americans north and south will differ on whether Sherman's march to the sea was a good thing (or evil). I don't see either side 'convincing' the other that they are wrong.

The challenge is to hear 'opposing' viewpoints without insisting that they see it the same way as you do. Frankly, I have enjoyed seeing that happen on this thread.

Sometimes, at the end of the day, we agree to disagree.

Well said Peter, I agree with you, nice synhtesis...
 

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