Firefly question (2 Viewers)

[Mitch]

I did not know it was an old issue and, it has been brought up by a few on the figarti section in only the last few days so, that is why I responded when it was mentioned on here a few moments ago
Mitch

 

[OzDigger]

Yeah, the Figarti paint job really sold me on that tank. It's a keeper. Just hope the paint stays on!

I also hope the paint stays on

Btw, I didn't know the Figarti version came with a .50 cal mounted on top of the turret, my understanding is that Brit tanks didn't have them fitted.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I also hope the paint stays on

Btw, I didn't know the Figarti version came with a .50 cal mounted on top of the turret, my understanding is that Brit tanks didn't have them fitted.

They did have a 0.50 cal Browning fitted but the crews usually removed it because the mounting was awkward making it difficult to use and it's position near the commanders hatch partly blocked his view.

Terry

 

[Blowtorch]

I suspect the Figarti Firefly is a bit undersized compared to their bulldozer and stack Sherman when it should actually be a bit bigger (longer).

I was just doing some reading on this topic (length of the Firefly) and it appears this is yet another one of those problem areas (ex. what style were Wittman's final road wheels, etc.). Reading some modeler's notes, several plastic kits on the market were actually too long & have only recently been corrected, so one has to be careful if a model kit is used for comparison. Looking at George Bradford's books on line drawings, the difference between an M4A4 hull, and a shorter one such as an M4A3 is not so obvious looking at the superstructure. It is only noticeable by carefully looking at the lower hull. And by careful, I mean I could only do it by physcially measuring the distance between the front drive wheel & rear idler wheel. It's amazingly deceptive.

 

[OzDigger]

They did have a 0.50 cal Browning fitted but the crews usually removed it because the mounting was awkward making it difficult to use and it's position near the commanders hatch partly blocked his view.

Terry

Terry, I suspect you are confusing the Firefly with the (Brit) Sherman. The Firefly lacked a hull machine-gun and I understand it was issued with a .30 cal machine gun for turret top mounting rather than a .50 cal. The Figarti mg looks to me like a .50 cal, when it should imho be a .30 cal. That said I'm no expert on armor, and there are exceptions to such rules.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Terry, I suspect you are confusing the Firefly with the (Brit) Sherman. The Firefly lacked a hull machine-gun and I understand it was issued with a .30 cal machine gun for turret top mounting rather than a .50 cal. The Figarti mg looks to me like a .50 cal, when it should imho be a .30 cal. That said I'm no expert on armor, and there are exceptions to such rules.

The hull machine gun was removed to have more space for ammo. The 0.30 cal coaxial MG was retained as was the 0.50 cal. turret MG for anti-aircraft protection, but typically was dismounted by the crew as not being too useful.

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

The three M4 variants converted to Sherman Fireflys were:
M4 - Sherman IC
M4 Hybrid - Sherman IC Hybrid
M4A4 - Sherman VC

The M4A4 had a hull that was 11" (28cm) longer than other M4 models to accomodate the Chrysler multi-bank engine. This meant that the Vertical Volute Suspension (VVSS) bogies were spaced farther apart. The gap between the bogies on the M4A4 is roughly three track teeth and connectors compared to two on other M4s.

Here are the Firefly holdings bu unit, Twenty First Army group North-West Europe, June 30 1944.

7th Armored Division - 36 x VC
11th Armored Division - 36 x VC
Guards Armored Division - 36 x VC
4th Armored Brigade - 36 x VC
8th Armored Brigade - 22 x VC
27th Armored Brigade - 29 x VC
29th Armored Brigade - Included with 11th Armored Div.
33rd Armored Brigade - 36 x VC
1st Polish Armored Division - 23 x VC, 2 x IC
4th Canadian Armored Division - 36 x VC
2nd Canadian Armored Brigade - 22 x VC
Czech Armored Brigade - 0

This tells us that pretty much all the Fireflys in action in Normandy in the first month were VCs based on the longer hull.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

The three M4 variants converted to Sherman Fireflys were:
M4 - Sherman IC
M4 Hybrid - Sherman IC Hybrid
M4A4 - Sherman VC

The M4A4 had a hull that was 11" (28cm) longer than other M4 models to accomodate the Chrysler multi-bank engine. This meant that the Vertical Volute Suspension (VVSS) bogies were spaced farther apart. The gap between the bogies on the M4A4 is roughly three track teeth and connectors compared to two on other M4s.

Here are the Firefly holdings bu unit, Twenty First Army group North-West Europe, June 30 1944.

7th Armored Division - 36 x VC
11th Armored Division - 36 x VC
Guards Armored Division - 36 x VC
4th Armored Brigade - 36 x VC
8th Armored Brigade - 22 x VC
27th Armored Brigade - 29 x VC
29th Armored Brigade - Included with 11th Armored Div.
33rd Armored Brigade - 36 x VC
1st Polish Armored Division - 23 x VC, 2 x IC
4th Canadian Armored Division - 36 x VC
2nd Canadian Armored Brigade - 22 x VC
Czech Armored Brigade - 0

This tells us that pretty much all the Fireflys in action in Normandy in the first month were VCs based on the longer hull.

That's why I posed a PM to Binder001 as to what versions the Figarti Firefly, Figarti bulldozer and K&C Firefly are. The Figarti Firefly is a bit shorter than both other Shermans which would be the case if it is an M4 and the others are the longer M4A4 versions. Most Fireflies were M4A4 models and not too many were M4.

Terry

 

[OzDigger]

The hull machine gun was removed to have more space for ammo. The 0.30 cal coaxial MG was retained as was the 0.50 cal. turret MG for anti-aircraft protection, but typically was dismounted by the crew as not being too useful.

Terry

Not only was the .50 cal dismounted and sometimes handed on to Canadian regiments, the bracket for it was often removed as it interfered with the Brit installed visions ports. The bottom line is that the .50 cal was a very rare item on a Brit Firefly, so why include it But I guess it does look

 

[Blowtorch]

I checked the Figarti...superstructure measurements come out to about 1:30.7...pretty good. The tracks are 1:31.7...so that may make the tank look smaller

 

[Rob]

Can't underestimate the phycological effect this machine had on both its operators and enemies, finally the Allies had a tank that could destroy the mighty Tiger at decent ranges.Those German aces were no longer invulnerable inside their machines, that 17 pounder was some weapon

Both K&C and Figarti have done a great job on this Tank,it must be one of the most requested Allied AFV's and both companies have answered in style.

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I checked the Figarti...superstructure measurements come out to about 1:30.7...pretty good. The tracks are 1:31.7...so that may make the tank look smaller

Was that scale for a 19' 4" Sherman M4 or a 20' M4A4? It is difficult to measure a difference that small. I think the side by side photo of Easy showing the difference is telling, if the Sherman version can be identified.

Terry

 

[uksubs]

I also hope the paint stays on

Btw, I didn't know the Figarti version came with a .50 cal mounted on top of the turret, my understanding is that Brit tanks didn't have them fitted.[/QUOTE
well spotted oz never know that about the firefly !

 

[binder001]

Guys, I was involved in other activities and am now back at the computer device.

Personally, I give the 1:30th guys more slack in true scale than I give the 1:35th guys. As far as size and color, Andy has always approached tank models as an artist and not a scale modeler. He doesn't care if the size is dead on or if the color is historically correct, as long as his model gives you the impression of being right for that time and place.

In looking at the compared view of the two tanks I was suddenly frightened by the driver's hatch on the K&C "Firefly" - that part never existed in that shape or form on any M4 variant ever built! A Grade of "F" on research and sculpting. Very disappointing.

As mentioned above, each Sherman tank went to its respective Lend-Lease recipients with all of the tools, accessories, etc. The tanks received by the British should have each had a .50 caliber HMG, but they were rarely used by the Commonwealth forces. Different views of a tank commander's job and priorities.

Gary B.

 

[jazzeum]

What about the Figarti one Gary?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Gary identified the Shermans. Both the K&C and Figarti Firelies are M4A4 (Sherman V) versions and should be the same size, but obviously are not. They both should be larger (longer) than the Figarti bulldozer or stack Shermans which are the shorter M4 versions, but the Figarti Firefly is actually slightly shorter than the M4 tanks.

So the conclusion is that the Figarti Firefly is undersized but correctly has the details of an M4A4 and the K&C version is the approximately correct size, but has "unique" features that made it difficult to determine what version of the Sherman it was.

I will now attempt to merge the 2 models to get a Firefly with the correct features and correct size

Terry

 

[arnhem44mad]

Can't underestimate the phycological effect this machine had on both its operators and enemies, finally the Allies had a tank that could destroy the mighty Tiger at decent ranges.Those German aces were no longer invulnerable inside their machines, that 17 pounder was some weapon

Both K&C and Figarti have done a great job on this Tank,it must be one of the most requested Allied AFV's and both companies have answered in style.

Rob

I've spoken to several WW2 veterans, both American and British and they have all said that the Sherman and Sherman Firefly tank were absolutely CRAP tankslol apparently they caught fire and burned like a wooden house in the desert! It's simply the fact that the allies mass produced these tanks in more numbers than the Germans did their own tigers and such which eventually meant the Allies winning on the armoured side of things!

 

[jazzeum]

Sounds like something that would have the makings of a good old fashioned Star Trek episode

 

[Lewey Gun Vick]

I hate to do this, but I have a question on the K&C version of the Firefly, what is the width of it?

Thanks!
Vick

 

[Phantom Warrior]

The Shermans were notorious for catching fire, especially if hit in the side of the hull where the ammo was stored in "dry storage" compartments. That is why many M4 and other early variations had one or two externally welded patches of armour plate welded to each side of the hull for added protection. even so, they had something like an 70% chance of catching fire if hit. The vaunted Panther had the same problem if hit in the side.

The M4A4 version does not have extra armour plates welded to the sides as it used a "wet storage" ammo system which reduced the chance of a fire to below 20% if hit.

The Figarti appears to have the low bustle turret appropriate for earlier tanks, not the Firefly while the K&C Firefly appears to have the correct high bustle turret (a vertically larger turret)

Terry