German WWII Vehicle Colors (1 Viewer)

[fmethorst]

Considering how many WWII German vehicles we see each year from the various manufacturers and the widely varying colors we see on them I thought I would start a discussion on German vehicle colors from 1939-1945. This thread is intended to be very visual with lots of pictures.

I'll kick this off by discussing the colors employed during the period 1943-1945.

The colors we are talking about are:
"Dunkelgelb nach Muster" (Dark Yellow according to standard)
RAL7028 "Dunkelgelb" (Dark Yellow, RAL register 840-R code 7028)
RAL8017 "Schokoladenbraun" (Chocolate Brown, RAL register 840-R code 8017)
RAL6003 "Olivgrun" (Olive Green, RAL register 840-R code 6003)

Dunkelgelb was not originally registered with the RAL institute which is why it didn't initially have a RAL code and was refered to as "Dark Yellow according to standard". This registration appears to have happened between February and April 1943.

There appears to have been at least three official hues of this color. One change appears to have occured at the point the color was registered with RAL and the next appears to have happened in 1944. This said, deviation from the standard appears to be common, likely caused by the numerous manufacturers and raw material shortages.

* Some people argue that there was only one offical hue. I suspect this is a debate that will continue.

RAL8017 "Schokoladenbraun" and RAL6003 "Olivgrun" have far less uncertainty in regards to their hue. In fact these two colors still appear in the current version of the RAL Classic color register 840-HR. Many people argue that the current register cannot be relied on to accurately reflect the hue for the same color on the 840-R register due to revisions that took place after the war but in the case of these two colors I have not found any evidence to doubt the current colors match those of the 1940's.

Note how when I remove the color from the previous picture there are three distinct shades. Dark yellow is the light shade, olive green is the middle shade and chocolate brown is the dark shade

Here is Panther with a factory fresh paint scheme. See how the same three shades can be seen allowing us identify the green and brown patches.

 

[fmethorst]

I have long maintained that smaller pieces of equipment can give us an indication of what vehicle paints looked like. On the top of my list are helmets. There are many examples of helmets painted with colors that appear remarkably close to what we would expect if the standard vehicle colors were applied.

Here is a door from a Ford Maultier

A fantastic picture of an RSO

Various passenger cars

 

[fmethorst]

An Sd.Kfz.234/4

A number of pictures of StuGs

A Panzer IV

Tiger 332 at Aberdeen Proving Grounds

While I'll be the first one to conceed that there was considerable variation in the hues and saturation of the standard German vehicle colors I don't think this means that any tan, brown and green are acceptable to represent the colors employed. First and foremost this was camouflage meaning it's purpose was to break up the recognizable shape of the vehicle and blend it into the background. Once in the field the colors would be covered with dirt and dust and fade as a result of exposure to the elements.

Here is some artwork that I feel does a good job of representing RAL7028, 8017 and 6003.

 

[Rob]

Superb thread Frank, very interesting and much appreciated.

Merry Christmas

Rob

 

[Currahee Chris]

You are the man!!

From everyting I know- from service time to just general reading and knowledge, yes, helmet colors are very indicative of camo schemes used with vehicles- as are uniforms- not sure that held for German WW2 troopers or not. We always used woodland camo or desert camo patterns, which, were reflected with our vehicles.

I do have to admit Frank, with all your expertise- bit surprised you called the Konigstiger a Tiger (APG Pic)

Five stars again!!
CC

 

[binder001]

Nice info. You are right that not just any shade of green/tan/brown is correct. There will always be considerable variation in the use of the paints. In the time period that the Germans supplied concentrated "paste" paint with the vehicles and let the units do their own camouflage painting there had to be a lot of variation in hue, texture and intensity. The German camo paint could be thinned with mineral spirits, gasoline or water. That alone will cause a lot of variations. Then look at brush versus spray versus daubed on, etc and you will have stark variations in color. As any of us who paint models know the colors can vary depending on how thin the paint is, the base color, the number of coats, the sprayer settings, and lots of other variables. That will end up with a huge range of hues from your basic color. When the factories started applying the camo paint then you will have a much tighter control over how the paint was prepared and applied so there will be much less variation on the colors. I was surprised by the research that showed that each main factory had its own camo pattern and that some guys can ID a Panther's factory just by its camouflage pattern (mentioned in "Duel in the Mist").

Gary B.

 

[Currahee Chris]

Nice info. You are right that not just any shade of green/tan/brown is correct. There will always be considerable variation in the use of the paints. In the time period that the Germans supplied concentrated "paste" paint with the vehicles and let the units do their own camouflage painting there had to be a lot of variation in hue, texture and intensity. The German camo paint could be thinned with mineral spirits, gasoline or water. That alone will cause a lot of variations. Then look at brush versus spray versus daubed on, etc and you will have stark variations in color. As any of us who paint models know the colors can vary depending on how thin the paint is, the base color, the number of coats, the sprayer settings, and lots of other variables. That will end up with a huge range of hues from your basic color. When the factories started applying the camo paint then you will have a much tighter control over how the paint was prepared and applied so there will be much less variation on the colors. I was surprised by the research that showed that each main factory had its own camo pattern and that some guys can ID a Panther's factory just by its camouflage pattern (mentioned in "Duel in the Mist").

Gary B.

Great post GB- That actually wouldn't surprise me now that I think about it. When I was at Ft. Polk, my unit was mobilizing for what (we thought) would be deployment to Somalia. They had/used what was called at the time "CARC" paint where it was very very thick, light tan color. The paint would gum up in the lugnuts of our hummers and make removing the tires a royal pain in the keyster. There were other guys- mostly in the armored batts that had slick looking, almost factory fresh paint- can't have those Abrams rolling out and looking ugly for the CNN cameras Additionally, weather played a big role in weathering that stuff down- at times, it seemed like overnight.

 

[Mitch]

Very interesting. the belief that there was only one colour yellow and not variations has, I think, caused many modellers and manufacturers many headaches.

Field camo patterns with colours available were very much down to the tank crews themselves and I really like the ones that went a bit over the top with the camo patterns especially as the war came into its final phase.
Mitch

 

[Currahee Chris]

......I really like the ones that went a bit over the top with the camo patterns especially as the war came into its final phase.
Mitch

Care to elaborate?? I could only imagine- anyone painting FTW in brown across their hanomag??

 

[Mitch]

I will post some pics that I have of some innovative striped camo colours and box patterns on german tanks when I get some time after christmas
Mitch

 

[Martin Tabony]

This is an excellent site for armour info.

Martin

http://www.missing-lynx.com/dg.htm

 

[fmethorst]

Gary raises a number of good points in regards to variation. Just to add to his comments, in some cases a completely different color could be substituted due to availability.

As noted though, a clear distinction has to be made between the field applied paint where application of the brown and green (Feb 1943 - Aug 1944) was left to the units and factory applied paint (Aug 1944 - May 1945) where all colors were applied at the factory. In the latter case the variation would have been reduced considerably and the coverage was more uniform. In addition the patterns were more uniform (although still unique from factory to factory).

We should also note that as the war situation deteriorated the factories were forced to improvise as well. Primer (RAL8012) red could serve as an integral part of the camouflage pattern.

This can been seen in this faded example at the Aberdeen proving grounds.

I suspect that this coupled with widely used name Rotbraun (Red brown) likely led to an impression that the brown employed by the Germans in WWII was decidedly reddish in hue.

Accepting that some variation is expected I still personally think that there are many cases where insufficient research or excessive artisitic license has led to reproductions (both full size and miniature) that just don't look right to me. Perhaps years of exposure to the various artwork in books from the 70's and 80's along with the box art for models has left people with impression that is based more on those artist's imagination than reality.

Lets consider a couple of museum examples. One would expect a museum, as a guardian of history, to be concerned to accurately representing and item so how does this happen?

from this

to this

Here is a picture from my recent trip to Bovington. Someone obviously put a lot of effort into the detail of the pattern on this Jagdpanther, although I can't say I've ever seen this pattern on this type of vehicle either, but seems to have thought that the first can of yellow paint they found would do.

 

[Gebhard]

Lets consider a couple of museum examples. One would expect a museum, as a guardian of history, to be concerned to accurately representing and item so how does this happen?

from this

to this

Here is a picture from my recent trip to Bovington. Someone obviously put a lot of effort into the detail of the pattern on this Jagdpanther, although I can't say I've ever seen this pattern on this type of vehicle either, but seems to have thought that the first can of yellow paint they found would do.

That painting of the Jagdpanther is horrendous , Maybe they should ask the good people in Munster to give em a helping hand . Took these shots in Sept. Looks just a little better . Great thread by the way . All the best Gebhard

 

[tullock]

The pattern on the Jagdpanther is horrendous.They have tried to emulate the MAN 'Disc camouflage' scheme,with disastrous results.
Jeff

 

[Mitch]

The jagdpanther is poorly done and shows the variation and acceptance of some strange colours purporting to be german yellow.

It reminds me of the first models I did when I was 7 or 8 and did not really know how to do german camo properly. This should be fixed to every manufacturers office board as a ''how not to'' its almost criminal
Mitch

 

[panda1gen]

Frank, very interesting thread - please keep going.

I have 'Panzer colours' as a reference, but this is at a different level

I believe the manufacturers have started paying much more attention, do you?

Please carry on with the paint jobs (then maybe Panzer markings next?).

 

[fmethorst]

Frank, very interesting thread - please keep going.

I have 'Panzer colours' as a reference, but this is at a different level

I believe the manufacturers have started paying much more attention, do you?

Please carry on with the paint jobs (then maybe Panzer markings next?).

The question about the manufacturers paying more attention is an interesting one. One of the motivations for me to start this thread was that to date I haven't seen a vehicle from any manufacturer that left me thinking "Wow! they nailed it." Personally I think a lot of liberty is taken with colors and while I acknowledge some variation, particularly in the case of field applied paint, is authentic I think we need to keep in mind the variation is based on the three standard colors and should reflect that. For me there are still too many cases of RAL8017 being represented as light orange or rust brown, usually a lighter shade than the green. As for the greens, there is a lot of variability out there with many of them straying quite a way from "Olivgrun" (Olive Green). As noted there are many cases where the green is a darker shade than the brown which is backwards in my opinion. I think Dunkelgelb is the most well represented color from the various manufacturers. I would argue that some appear too bright and/or too amber but this likely has more to do with the manufacturers style than straying from the standard.

Now, regarding the subject of museums. Here is a piicture of the Jagdpanther on display the Imperial War Museum (I highly recommend visiting if you're in London). Compare the colors used on this example with the one at Bovington.

At least from a color perspective they've done a better job than Bovington.

If I had to rate the painting of German vehicles from some of the tank museums I would put Samur and Munster ahead of Bovington, Patton or Kublinka.

Here is a picture featuring Samur's Panther on the top.

Bovington is interesting because it seems to be all over the map. This Panzer IV is not bad from a color perspective.

Now back to the subject of factory paint. Here are some wonderful black and white pictures of the Panzerjäger 38t (Jagdpanzer 38). You can easily distinguish between the various shades with brown as the dark shade, green as the middle shade and dark yellow as the light shade. Note how the wheels have been painted solid colors as well.

 

[Mitch]

Frank...

I think the creativity displayed by manufacturers et al will only continue. I recall one manufacturer stating they use museum taken pictures as assistance in design and colourway. As some of the pics show here they are wildly off the mark themselves. The information is available but, I think its easier for the manufacturers to get similar than spot on IMO
Mitch

 

[fmethorst]

Frank...

I think the creativity displayed by manufacturers et al will only continue. I recall one manufacturer stating they use museum taken pictures as assistance in design and colourway. As some of the pics show here they are wildly off the mark themselves. The information is available but, I think its easier for the manufacturers to get similar than spot on IMO
Mitch

You may be right regarding the manufacturers, time will tell I suppose. Perhaps they should look to some of the fine 1/35 samples out there for inspiration. If the museum pieces I've seen are any indication that should be the last place to look as a reference.

 

[fmethorst]

A nice set of pictures of Jagdpanther 823: