UKReb
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Guns of Navarone (1 Viewer)
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skeeterbuck
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I agree that the thread has gone somewhat off course. My reference was to war movies in general. I can see how it was a bit confusing.
Chuck
Louis Badolato
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I love Saving Private Ryan for all the reasons mentionjed by UKReb & George. I love The Guns of Naverone because the characters of LRDG New Zealand Captain Keith Mallory, Greek Lt. Colonel Andrea Stavros and British Corporal Dusty Miller are some of the most riviting fictional characters ever created. Both movies are great for different reasons, and frankly, I could watch both 100 times over and still enjoy every minute.
OzDigger
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Well, I can't argue with that Louis, I like them both as well.
When you think about it there aren't many war movies that have combined historical accuracy with Hollywood style drama, 'Black Hawk Down' being one of them imo.
Harrytheheid
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Reb,
I watch war movies primarily because there's an interesting human story. If I wanted to watch movies that are depicting historical battles to the nth degree (which I sometimes do) then I watch Documentaries.
Cheers
H
Harrytheheid
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Further to my previous post on this thread, two of the best movies I've watched over the past several years are;
a) Charlotte Gray
Based on the book of the same name. Accurate..?? I dunno for I wasn't there, but for me it seemed to capture the terror of living in Occupied France and was an excellent story that immersed the watcher into the lives of the characters.
b) The Alamo
The John Wayne version. Accurate..?? I dunno for I wasn't there, but what a brilliant film - in my humble opinion. 'Specially Sam Houston's speech to his men on receiving news of the Alamo holdout.
Agree with the positive comments re Force 10 from Navarone. I think this was quite an underestimated movie. Still think The Guns of Navarone was better though.
What probably makes a good "older" movie is the fact that this was what you grew up with. Watching The Great Escape at Christmas, or The 4 Feathers, or Gunga Din on a Sunday afternoon.
Just a few thoughts.
Cheers
H
Cheers
H
a) Charlotte Gray
Based on the book of the same name. Accurate..?? I dunno for I wasn't there, but for me it seemed to capture the terror of living in Occupied France and was an excellent story that immersed the watcher into the lives of the characters.
b) The Alamo
The John Wayne version. Accurate..?? I dunno for I wasn't there, but what a brilliant film - in my humble opinion. 'Specially Sam Houston's speech to his men on receiving news of the Alamo holdout.
Agree with the positive comments re Force 10 from Navarone. I think this was quite an underestimated movie. Still think The Guns of Navarone was better though.
What probably makes a good "older" movie is the fact that this was what you grew up with. Watching The Great Escape at Christmas, or The 4 Feathers, or Gunga Din on a Sunday afternoon.
Just a few thoughts.
Cheers
H
Cheers
H
Louis Badolato
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Harry,
You do know that our favorite author George MacDonald Frasier was involved in writing the screenplay for Force 10 (by the way, while the movie was good, the book is 10 times better).
binder001
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I got to see "Guns of Navarone" when it was first released in the theaters and have enjoyed it ever since. It was never meant to be a historical account of WW2, just a good old action film of the era like "Goldfinger" or "The Magnificent Seven". I read the book and a bunch of other Alistair McClean novels - they are basically just wild adventures, but they are fun to read. By the way, in the book the Greek resistance fighters are MALE - it was changed for the movie. McClean also wrote "Where Eagles Dare". When it was time to write "Force 10 From Navarone" McClean changed the charcters to match the popular movie! As far as the vehicles, etc, NOBODY in that era made any real effort to depict the right equipment. There might be a Kuebelwagen or a Mercedes staff car thrown in, but the movie producers used what was available. For "Guns of Navarone" the Greek Army threw in M24 tanks, 105mm howitzers and such. The wheel-to-wheel line up looks silly but was supposed to impress the average movie goer with the POWER of the Germans. I really LOVED the sets of the gun cave! I always wanted a couple guns like that - I just couldn't find two 125-foot holsters for them ;-) I like the sequence of the guns firing, that seems to have the proper steps. They even simulated the blast effects of firing a 12-15 inch cannon in a cave. Good movie making, but really crappy history. Does anyone remember the real incident? In 1943 the British got a garrison trapped on an Aegean islnad named Leros (in the movie it was "Keros") but the Brits were forced to surrender in real life (if I remember correctly).
So get out the snacks, put "Guns of Navorone" into the DVD player and watch Gregory Peck and David Niven outsmart the entire German military. Then follow it with "Where Eagles Dare" and maybe "Goldfinger" for good measure. You won't learn a thing about WW2 but you'll have some great escapist entertainment!
Gary B.
So get out the snacks, put "Guns of Navorone" into the DVD player and watch Gregory Peck and David Niven outsmart the entire German military. Then follow it with "Where Eagles Dare" and maybe "Goldfinger" for good measure. You won't learn a thing about WW2 but you'll have some great escapist entertainment!
Gary B.
Spitfrnd
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Good stuff, whole heartedly agree.
There are movies that entertain, movies that teach and (much more rarely) movies that entertain and teach. Nothing wrong with any of the above, so long as they are good at what they are intended to do. GoN, WED and F10 were all good at entertaining. Popcorn anyone?
UKReb
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I posted the following Wayne quote on another thread/another subject sometime ago but I think it's more apt for this discussion.
An intrepid film reporter asked Wayne at the premiere of his Alamo "Does your film depict what really happened?" Wayne retorted "Hell No! But it's the way it should have happened"
The movie was pure entertaining escapism with the gist of the story near enough for the average movie punter. A few Texans want independence from Mexico, to allow Sam Houston to recruit an army a few brave stalwarts hole themselves up in an old Spanish mission and stop the advancing Mexican army for thirteen days.Mexicans final assault wipes out all the defenders including Crockett/Bowie and Travis. Historically accurate of course not but near enough for John Doe-Entertaining? In 1961 you betcha!
But then 40 odd years later we have another Alamo starring Billy Bob Thornton as a much more accurate David Crockett than Wayne depicted and a closer to, as far as anyone knows, Alamo/Texas War of Independence history than Duke's epic. Did it make it a better or more popular film? Not particularly- and it still bombed at the box-office.
Back to accurate WWII films- is for example the expense of locating and then obtaining a genuine MK IV German tank instead of some Allied vehicle made up to look like a Tiger instead of a MK IV that really shouldn't have been there on that particular day in 1944 really going to make a halfpeth of difference to the average movie-goer. No of course it's not but it makes a heck of a difference to the film's bottom line and further releases as Spitfrnd aptly stated.
All the movies we discuss as one's personal favorites or absolute turkeys are obviously going to be subjective, same as our hobby-one collectors era is anothers absolute boredom. Subsequently, I believe a lot of this "inaccuracy speak" is just a lot of showing off by guys who bore everyone in a bar after watching a thoroughly enjoyable movie by stating "Yes but! actually that particular rifle/pistol/aircraft/ship/jeep/tank/unit/regiment is not correct for that battle that the film is depicting. Does the average movie-goer really give a toss? He wants to be entertained for his buck and if the movie affects you, amuses you. thrills you, moves you, so much the better and if it's fiction, faction or the closest Hollywood can get to the truth it matters not a jot! But if you want spot on accuracy or the nearest to it and it appears a few of us do-as Harry said- go watch a documentary.
Reb
gk5717
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I believe the way one percieves a movie going in has a lot to do with ones first impression.
In the seventies Paul Newman starred in the movie "Slapshot" The reviews prior to it,s screening stated it depicted the life of minor league hockey players.
I went in believing this was going to be some sort of drama, as it turned out it was a comedy. I initially left the theatre disappointed thinking it was a stupid movie. Then I realized what it,s real intent was, to be saterical of the sport of hockey. Now this movie is in my top ten of all time and I can watch it and laugh every time I see it.
Gary
In the seventies Paul Newman starred in the movie "Slapshot" The reviews prior to it,s screening stated it depicted the life of minor league hockey players.
I went in believing this was going to be some sort of drama, as it turned out it was a comedy. I initially left the theatre disappointed thinking it was a stupid movie. Then I realized what it,s real intent was, to be saterical of the sport of hockey. Now this movie is in my top ten of all time and I can watch it and laugh every time I see it.
Gary
Currahee Chris
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That playset is still one of the greatest toys I ever owned as a kid. I still have a picture of me and some of my buddies when I turned 9 and us playing with it. I took this 2 foot tall Godzilla and had him wrap his hand around the flag and attacking the mountain fortress!! It was a blast.
I feel like Patton has stood the test of time- I think the focus was just different between Patton and SPR
Simply put for me- Before SPR- I used to feel like my manhood was 660 Grade rockwell stainless steel- after SPR, I could barely look at myself in the mirror. I can still recall walking out of that movie theater. My eyes were wet and I hadn't realized I had been crying. To think that guys like my grandfather had went through the experience of that time period was just unbelievable. My wife got in the truck and was just sobbing in tears. Besides the fact that my grandfather had fought in the ETO and racked up a PH in the process, I as an American just felt utterly disgusted seeing my fellow citizens being mowed to pieces like that. I will admit, I'll be honest with you guys, I used to want to maybe own a BMW or some kind of German car- after watching that movie, it did turn me into somewhat of a racist against Germans- I won't lie about it. I have since chilled and tempered to some degree but I cannot possibly in a million years forgive them for what they not only did to my fellow Americans but to the world as a whole. It really is a burden that they have had to live with ever since and it weighs heavily on their national conscious even today.
In a alot of ways, I also believe that the ACW timeframe has not had it's "sPR" and one day it should. Some of the movies have been pretty close but I don't think they have taken the American public to the heart of what that conflict was all about- not like SPR did.
Since watching the movie, I do feel after looking at it objectively, I think it is a bit dramatic at times and overly flowery with the innocence of the American soldiers but again, that is just me.
I was kind of hoping that Band of Brothers captured the visciousness of the airborne drops like SPR did for the naval landing. I guarantee you that the jumps we saw on that show were way way tamer than they were in reality.
SPR isn't just a movie, it really is in a class of it's own and can be called an American visual experience.
Harrytheheid
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I couldn't have put it better myself my elequent and Rebellious friend. As you say, an awful lot of the "inaccuracy speak" is spouted by the equivalent of the bar-room bore showing off - as if the vast majority of other people actually cared.
Eeeeeemm....in my humble opinion.
Cheers
H
UKReb
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Chris
Great post and echoes my first comments on this thread. I too reflected for days after watching SPR, no other film before or after ever had the same effect on me.
I too also suffered a racism toward the German people but it wasn't a movie, my father's elder brother was killed at the bridge at Arnhem and every September until he died my father took me with him to the Airborne annual service in Holland and as a kid looking across at all those white headstones with a family link and the Last Post hauntingly ringing in your ears something gets buried deep into your psyche. It took years into adulthood and reading hundreds of history books before my deep rooted opinion slowly balanced and levelled out but just like you complete forgiveness somehow alluded me.
Your ACW comment is also interesting apart from the massive hit Gone with the Wind which just had a civil war backcloth it appears no civil war film (true there have not been many) made by Hollywood has ever done good box office business to the extent that the studios now wont touch it period.
Why is that?
I would have thought the ACW contained all the right movie ingredients:-Massive and important part of US history-break up and restoration of the States- tragic and human stories of brother against brother- Famous American heroes and a few unsavoury characters-It's got it all.
Have to agree with you there truly is a great movie epic in there just waiting to be made.
Reb
OzDigger
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To the best of my knowledge Australian ground troops weren't directly involved in the freedom of Europe. And I think this may explain why such inherited hatred (for want of a better term) of the Germans is less pronounced in Australia as it is in say North America or Britain. Australian troops did fight the Germans in North Africa and the Mediterranean theatre, but from most accounts I have read they ended up with a grudging respect for each other.
There were of course plenty of Australian Aircrew involved with the freedom of Europe, my father being a Bomb Aimer/Observer/2nd Navigator with the RAAF. However I got the impression from him that it was a job to be done and he didn't appear to retain any long term hatred for Germans. He did loose a number of friends from his squadron(s) during the war but as each aircraft operated as a single unit and at night he was spared seeing them killed first hand. Another factor with men in Bomber Command, as opposed to the other air services, is an element of guilt with bombing civilians, be it by accident rather than design
There were of course plenty of Australian Aircrew involved with the freedom of Europe, my father being a Bomb Aimer/Observer/2nd Navigator with the RAAF. However I got the impression from him that it was a job to be done and he didn't appear to retain any long term hatred for Germans. He did loose a number of friends from his squadron(s) during the war but as each aircraft operated as a single unit and at night he was spared seeing them killed first hand. Another factor with men in Bomber Command, as opposed to the other air services, is an element of guilt with bombing civilians, be it by accident rather than design
damian
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Your ACW comment is also interesting apart from the massive hit Gone with the Wind which just had a civil war backcloth it appears no civil war film (true there have not been many) made by Hollywood has ever done good box office business to the extent that the studios now wont touch it period.
Why is that?
I would have thought the ACW contained all the right movie ingredients:-Massive and important part of US history-break up and restoration of the States- tragic and human stories of brother against brother- Famous American heroes and a few unsavoury characters-It's got it all.
Have to agree with you there truly is a great movie epic in there just waiting to be made.
Military buffs love watching documentaries etc about war. Now some moveis like Gods and Generals are basically documentaries. Teh general public wants more than just that. They want human drama. Love betrayal etc So Gone with the Wind remains the quintessential Civil War movie. Look at the English Patient and ATonement. I doubt if any 21 st century audience would be interested in a war documentary type movie and I think teh general public is far too cynical now to watch a Guns of Navaorone type Boys adventure movie anymore. (The general public that is not us) The issue about a definitive Civil War movie has plagued movie critics for years. Cold Mountain was a good movie but somehow just hasn't stuck in the collective consciousness. Maybe it will grow in time and come to be seen as a classic. Glory was also a great movie and one would have thought it would also have grown in stature but it does not seem to be discussed much. I would love to see a great Civil War movie. But I don't think Gods and Generals was it I am afraid. The acting was a bit stilted and the character development was secondary to the great epic battle scenes. The Bunker about the Last days of Adolf seemed to be more of a human drama and that had quite a good response. The scene where Mrs Goebels poisons her six children was harrowing to say the least. So at the end of all that I think it is a balance between acucracy, human drama and acting that makes a movie have lasting appeal.
Regards
Damian
Why is that?
I would have thought the ACW contained all the right movie ingredients:-Massive and important part of US history-break up and restoration of the States- tragic and human stories of brother against brother- Famous American heroes and a few unsavoury characters-It's got it all.
Have to agree with you there truly is a great movie epic in there just waiting to be made.
Military buffs love watching documentaries etc about war. Now some moveis like Gods and Generals are basically documentaries. Teh general public wants more than just that. They want human drama. Love betrayal etc So Gone with the Wind remains the quintessential Civil War movie. Look at the English Patient and ATonement. I doubt if any 21 st century audience would be interested in a war documentary type movie and I think teh general public is far too cynical now to watch a Guns of Navaorone type Boys adventure movie anymore. (The general public that is not us) The issue about a definitive Civil War movie has plagued movie critics for years. Cold Mountain was a good movie but somehow just hasn't stuck in the collective consciousness. Maybe it will grow in time and come to be seen as a classic. Glory was also a great movie and one would have thought it would also have grown in stature but it does not seem to be discussed much. I would love to see a great Civil War movie. But I don't think Gods and Generals was it I am afraid. The acting was a bit stilted and the character development was secondary to the great epic battle scenes. The Bunker about the Last days of Adolf seemed to be more of a human drama and that had quite a good response. The scene where Mrs Goebels poisons her six children was harrowing to say the least. So at the end of all that I think it is a balance between acucracy, human drama and acting that makes a movie have lasting appeal.
Regards
Damian
Currahee Chris
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I think three reasons really:
1.) Americans killing Americans- Look at how hard it was for us to swallow SPR given that was Germans killing essentially 4,000 plus Americans on DDay- Chancellorsville, GBurg, etc, etc- we lost 20,000 Americans- I don't care if they were Union or Rebels- they were still Americans.
2.) The "slavery" stigma- good, bad or indifferent, I feel very strongly that the general consensus here in the States is that the Rebels were evil tobacco chewing rednecks who wanted to keep Black Americans at bay- slavery, while an issue for the war, I don't believe was a direct issue for the war. In order to paint a historically accurate movie, the slavery issue needs to be presented for what it is or was at the time.
3.) The civil rights issue- probably blends in with number 3 above- in a lot of ways, I don't think we as a nation can handle 19th Century America on a direct sweeping level like SPR did for WW2. We pride ourselves in being the beacon of freedom and democracy yet our domestic policy in the 19th Century is rife with trampled civil rights of Blacks and westward expanision. I am not so sure a film which accurately paints those policies back then would be very well received as I am not sure as a country we are ready to deal with that to the level of an SPR.
There have been some flicks that have captured moments of it- like Cold Mountain and Glory but one on a sweeping level like SPR would truly be groundbreaking.
Oz- enjoyed your comments and can actually emphathize. My grandfather never EVER said a bad word about the Germans- had a lot of opinions on the COmmunists (probably more of a issue with his generation and McCarthyism) but never heard him say anything bad about the Germans. I think those of us out here who are fortunate enough to have never experienced war are able to get a bit judgemental and opinionated- I think the guys who lived through it- German, American, Australian, British or Japanese, just do the best they can to go back home, forget it happened and then try to live their lives thankful that they simply made it back to the shores of their own countries.
UKReb
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Damian
I cannot argue with any of your comments, but it still doesn't answer why films in all the theatres of WWII still remain extremely popular with US audiences in particular and the ACW is an almost no-go area. I can assure you, but I think you know, there is bags of human drama in the stories of American families affected in that war as there were in WWII.
A documentary type ACW film I agree would not be the path to box-office success, that was why Gods and Generals flopped-it tried to cover too many years and lost it's audience. But Gettysburg even with all it's flaws nearly made it by concentrating on just one pivotal battle and I do believe it drew it's biggest TV audience in the States when it was shown.
So it's still possible to one day make an ACW SPR.
Reb
Spitfrnd
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With respect to our German and other Axis country friends, there is quite a difference for mass American audience purposes, between a film with Americans against a foreign aggressor and Americans fighting themselves with very little purpose or need. Slavery as an institution was collapsing on itself and, at most, most historians agree that the war only accelerated the inevitable. Of all our wars, it was likely the most regrettable. Besides literally pitting brother against brother and making widows of friends and neighbors, many of the battles also involved a mind numbing slaughter. So not only do you have real problems deciding who to root for but, like WW1, it was a chilling example of tactics well out of sync with advances in killing power. Yes I know it also reflected much bravery and had many battles that are very interesting for many of us to review and represent (just as I so much enjoy Reb’s Dios) but overall I just don’t think you could do a successful civil war version of SPR.
Harrytheheid
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I can appreciate that point of view Spitfrnd.
Okay, well how about a modern remake of "The Red Badge of Courage"..??
Cheers
H