I need help with ideas for the Teutoburger Wald! (1 Viewer)

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

Hi Again!
Perhaps you should do a search for all of the various Time Machine kits.

As I recall, fair number of these were sculpted by Chris Tubbs with additional add ons created by the owner of Time Machine. With all of the kits combined you could build quite an impressive display and it would be more accurate than using some of the later period Romans currently offered as pre decorated products.
Just a thought!
Ken

 

[Uthred]

Hi Again!
Perhaps you should do a search for all of the various Time Machine kits.

As I recall, fair number of these were sculpted by Chris Tubbs with additional add ons created by the owner of Time Machine. With all of the kits combined you could build quite an impressive display and it would be more accurate than using some of the later period Romans currently offered as pre decorated products.
Just a thought!
Ken

Thank you for your suggestion, Ken!

The Romans are not really the problem. EOI Romans are late republican or early imperial, and the Battle of the Teutoburg Wald happened in the early imperial period. The main difference would be EOI Romans wear lorica segmentata, not lorica hamata as most Roman legions would by AD 9. Lorica segmentata, however, was prevalent through the 1st Century AD, so it's ok to have the Romans wearing that kind of armor.

The Barbarians are a much more complex matter, though. As I've mentioned before, Arminius troops would have two completely different looks in the battle.

First there's the traditional Cherusci warrior. Wearing tight pants, no shirt, sometimes a woolen or fur cape. This long-haired thick-bearded warrior would have a few javelins (sometimes only a simple wooden stick with a fire-hardened point), wicker or wood shield, and almost never a sword. These would be his younger and inexperienced warriors, or his allies from other Cherusci clans. This is the kind of warrior Time Machine offers.

Then there was his veteran army, a group of soldiers that had been serving the Romans under Arminius for several years on many campaigns. These wouldn't look anything like the rest of the Cherusci. They would have clothing, weapons and armor of Roman origin. This kind of warrior is easily represented by Conte and K&C Barbarians.

Maybe I should mix Time Machine with Conte and K&C, but I fear Time Machine are 54mm and somewhat smaller than the other Barbarians I have already (Conte and K&C). Do you see my problem?

Thanks anyway!

Cheers...

Uthred

P.S.: I am a huge fan of your work!

 

[UKReb]

Uthred

I have just stumbled on your thread here and as Oz directed you to one of my "tree-laden dios" I thought I might give you a couple of pointers. You are absolutely correct that purchasing large model trees from any supplier works out very expensive-that was the primary reason I had a go at making them myself and believe me you really have no need to be talented or possess any particular skill-they are very easy to make.

I have not currently got any underway to show you a stage by stage process but the attached unfinished tree (no base) may help you in deciding to have a go yourself-and if it all goes to rats it wont have cost you an arm or a leg.

The first couple of illustrations gives you some idea of how to start-but a good bit of advice First get and study some pictures of the real tree, oak, pine etc that you want to imitate. You will need three or four different gauges of binding wire-if you want a tree 12" high you will need 10 or 12 strands approx 36" in length-loop them in half and twist into a frame to form a skeleton with the heavier gauge wire forming the base. When you think the trunk is to the height you require start bending the wires to form your branches.

Building the trunk and branches-you can use all kinds of all purpose filler for this as long as it stays malleable long enough (must not harden too quickly) some modellers use Tetrion filler but I prefer ordinary duplex mix for car filler-a paste and a hardener that you mix together- keep building layer by layer until your trunk and branches appear to look right. The trick here is before the last layer fully sets take a hobby knife/carpenter's gouge or even a piece of wire and carve the bark efect/hollows/knots/dead stumps etc into the trunk and branches let it set. Paint in whatever color-dry brush the bark and give it a coat of varnish.

Foliage-now that you will have to purchase but it is not expensive-the illustration here is of "dead foliage" as I was going to construct a couple of Texas trees for the Alamo dio-but decided not to. You can get all kinds of foliage and I tend to use clump as my trees are more generic. Just stick it on with diluted PVA adhesive and spray with scenic cement.

All you need to do then is base it I use resin-warm it up and pour it into a flat mold and insert the tree then let it set. But you can stick it on flat styro-foam or hard-board even wood and cover the base with woodland scatter/hairy grass or a variety of coverages. Illustrations show a "generic Joshua type hybrid" a Tall Pine and a "generic squat oak"

If you decide to have a go and you want some more detailed guidance just let me know

Reb

 

[Uthred]

Uthred

I have just stumbled on your thread here and as Oz directed you to one of my "tree-laden dios" I thought I might give you a couple of pointers. You are absolutely correct that purchasing large model trees from any supplier works out very expensive-that was the primary reason I had a go at making them myself and believe me you really have no need to be talented or possess any particular skill-they are very easy to make.

I have not currently got any underway to show you a stage by stage process but the attached unfinished tree (no base) may help you in deciding to have a go yourself-and if it all goes to rats it wont have cost you an arm or a leg.

The first couple of illustrations gives you some idea of how to start-but a good bit of advice First get and study some pictures of the real tree, oak, pine etc that you want to imitate. You will need three or four different gauges of binding wire-if you want a tree 12" high you will need 10 or 12 strands approx 36" in length-loop them in half and twist into a frame to form a skeleton with the heavier gauge wire forming the base. When you think the trunk is to the height you require start bending the wires to form your branches.

Building the trunk and branches-you can use all kinds of all purpose filler for this as long as it stays malleable long enough (must not harden too quickly) some modellers use Tetrion filler but I prefer ordinary duplex mix for car filler-a paste and a hardener that you mix together- keep building layer by layer until your trunk and branches appear to look right. The trick here is before the last layer fully sets take a hobby knife/carpenter's gouge or even a piece of wire and carve the bark efect/hollows/knots/dead stumps etc into the trunk and branches let it set. Paint in whatever color-dry brush the bark and give it a coat of varnish.

Foliage-now that you will have to purchase but it is not expensive-the illustration here is of "dead foliage" as I was going to construct a couple of Texas trees for the Alamo dio-but decided not to. You can get all kinds of foliage and I tend to use clump as my trees are more generic. Just stick it on with diluted PVA adhesive and spray with scenic cement.

All you need to do then is base it I use resin-warm it up and pour it into a flat mold and insert the tree then let it set. But you can stick it on flat styro-foam or hard-board even wood and cover the base with woodland scatter/hairy grass or a variety of coverages. Illustrations show a "generic Joshua type hybrid" a Tall Pine and a "generic squat oak"

If you decide to have a go and you want some more detailed guidance just let me know

Reb

Reb, my friend! Thank you very much!

I will give it a try, but I've never modeled a tree before so I can't promise it will look anything like yours! Congratulations on you trees, they look amazing!

Any further help you can give me, will be much appreciated.

Cheers...

Uthred

 

[OzDigger]

Reb, thanks for showing us those tree tips, I'm sure it will inspire a number of us to try this method of tree making.

 

[Andanna]

Btw, I know little about the Teutoburger Wald battle(s) but I recall a few forest battle scenes in the "Gladiator" movie - is that in a similar area and or time period to the scene you are planning

Very similar, except that it was a trap for the Romans and a number of German tribes had prepared the area prior to the attack well in advance with ditches and walls.

Uthred is of course right, the German tribes that were part of the Roman troops, including Arminius, must have worn "Romanised" attire. I agree that Aeroart was wrong.

Time Machine does do lots of Romans and Cheruscii, even civilians. They just were not for me:

 

[Uthred]

Very similar, except that it was a trap for the Romans and a number of German tribes had prepared the area prior to the attack well in advance with ditches and walls.

Uthred is of course right, the German tribes that were part of the Roman troops, including Arminius, must have worn "Romanised" attire. I agree that Aeroart was wrong.

Time Machine does do lots of Romans and Cheruscii, even civilians. They just were not for me:

Yes, Andanna. Arminius and his warriors had been figthing as auxiliaries for 5 years before the battle. One would expect them to have many pieces of Roman armor, as well as weapons, in their possession.

It's really interesting that archeologists have found 6,000 pieces of Roman equipment, and only a single Germanic piece after years excavating on the site of the battle. That clearly means the Cherusci were attired in Roman armor and helmets. That's not a surprise at all. As veteran auxiliary forces, they must have had ample opportunity to acquire clothing, jewelry, armor and weapons from their Roman masters.

I simply don't understand why this is not reflected in illustrations of the battle, or the toy soldiers that are supposed to depict the battle of Teutoburg Wald Forest. I guess the image of the half savage barbarian is stronger in people's minds?


One must complimet both Conte and K&C because their Barbarians are a mixed lot, like Arminius and his men surely were in AD 9.

Cheers...

Uthred

 

[Andanna]

Yes, Andanna. Arminius and his warriors had been fighting as auxiliaries for 5 years before the battle. One would expect them to have many pieces of Roman armor, as well as weapons, in their possession.
Uthred

Only the "traitor" troops were "romanised", though. I think the other Germans wore their typical outfit - trousers. I hence think most of the Germans did look barbarian, only the "defected" troops wore Roman uniforms.

In a display, I think depicting Romans battle Roans auxiliary troops would not be successful.

 

[Uthred]

Only the "traitor" troops were "romanised", though. I think the other Germans wore their typical outfit - trousers. I hence think most of the Germans did look barbarian, only the "defected" troops wore Roman uniforms.

In a display, I think depicting Romans battle Roans auxiliary troops would not be successful.

Yes, Andanna, I agree. The Cheruscan warriors that fought under Arminius would be the only ones in Roman attire. They would be the core of Arminius forces, though, as these were experienced veterans with much better armor and weapons than their brothers from the Cherusci or other tribes.

That's why I believe ideally one should mix Barbarians in Roman armor with wild looking "traditional" Cherusci. I still think Conte and K&C are perfect for the job.

I only miss a good Arminius. In my mind's eye I can see Arminius as a young Barbarian king dressed as a Roman general. After all, not only Arminius was raised by the Romans (he was a hostage), but he had served the Roman army for 5 years before the battle. I'm not aware of any toy soldier that looks the part, though. If anyone could help me here, I'd be very thankful.

All the best.

Uthred

 

[Uthred]

Can anyone help me?


I am looking for a young Barbarian king dressed as a Roman general or officer. He will be Arminius on my diorama. Unfortunately I know of no such toy soldier...


It should be 60mm or a tall 54mm (like Conte), or else he will be dwarfed by the rest of my Barbarians.


Thanks,

Uthred

 

[Andanna]

Uthred, I travelled North Germany with my teen-age children last week and had a chance to visit the battlefield in Kalkriese. I will keep my observations short, but I wanted to share an idea with you that occurred to me while visiting the (very well presented) site:

Although it has not been 100% confirmed that the battle site at Kalkriese covers the 9 CE/AD battle between various German tribes, led by Arminius, and three Roman legions, led by Varus, or a battle around 16 CE/AD, I believe that the fact that none of the thousands of coins found on or near the battlefield dates later than 9 CE/AD serves as a strong indication that the battlefield is that of the Varus battle. It is also unclear which stage of the battle took part at Kalkriese - assuming the battle took several days. What I found fascinating was the planning that went into the preparation of the battlefield by Arminius. At this point, the majority of historians believe that Arminius built a wall further narrowing a very tight pass between a bog and a steep hillside. Further, the wall was not straight, but meandered optimizing the number of Germanic warriors to man the walls as well as their attack positions. Lastly. there were several "gates" in the wall allowing the tribesmen to attack the Romans directly. But the pictures probable better describe the construct than I can:

The location of the wall between bog and hillside:

A model of the wall:

Reconstructions of the wall:

I am looking for a young Barbarian king dressed as a Roman general or officer. He will be Arminius on my diorama. Unfortunately I know of no such toy soldier...

You are searching in the right direction. It is the majority opinion that the initial attack was conducted nearly exclusively by auxiliary forces of the Roman army. The scene we need to imagine therefore would remind you of a civil war: Roman legionnaires against Roman auxiliary infantry and cavalry. This is not a pretty picture and I hence do not believe that we will see an Arminius figure - or his romanized soldiers - for a while. The typical German warriors (bare chested and unkempt) joined later - generally to loot.

I am afraid the fact that enemies and foes wore rather similar outfits turned this battle into a commercial dead-end.

 

[kogu]

Andanna,
thank you for posting this. That is very interesting information.
Hope you had an enjoyable trip to Germany.
When looking at the map you posted, you will see a little town called "Bramsche" on the left side.
That's the town where I was born, many years ago.
Not that it matters here but I found it quite exciting to see a map of this particular region here on the forum
Konrad

 

[Andanna]

Andanna,
When looking at the map you posted, you will see a little town called "Bramsche" on the left side.
That's the town where I was born, many years ago.
Konrad

Konrad, I do know Bramsche, as I am from the town at the bottom of the map (cut-off) - Herford.

It was a great trip and I appreciate finding collectors who share the interest in these rather exotic battles.