Interesting Times are Coming…” (2 Viewers)

[Rob]

I think a move into plastic would be a great idea it may upset some of the traditionalist K&C collectors who like the status quo (Now go away those who see this as a label or anything like that.. just look at some responses to repaints etc to see what I mean) I cannot see K&C not getting it sorted with cost etc as it should not be too hard to do with the experience they have.

Its already being done by Conte and, would as has been stated allow younger collectors to get into the hobby and allow them to own K&C which, may ensure a core of collectors for the future. It is indeed interesting times and not surprised at all to see such comments coming from K&C. I suppose its how he is still in business nearly three decades later.

Plus I have been after unpainted K&C for a while
Mitch

Mitch,

I'm a traditonalist and like the Staus Quo (in fact I've seen them dozens of times in concert, great live band they were) but wouldn't mind if K&C branched out into plastics, couldnt say if I'd collect them until I'd seen them to be honest. I don't think it would stop me collecting or divert money from the main K&C ranges but would be very interesting too see, and great news for the those who collect plastics. Sure would create a buzz wouldn't it.

Rob

 

[octavedoctor]

I have a feeling that we may have enough plastic in the world already. Personally I've been having great fun over the past couple of years removing said material from my environment as much as possible and not replacing what I remove with more - but then that's just me and my more odd luddite tendencies coming to the fore.

As far as soldiers go it's metal or nothing for me I'm afraid.

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

Nice reply. Though I think you know why it was put in. I just hope that he does venture into this area and, looks at other areas its just moving with the times and adapting to the markets. I think I have asked nearly all the 30th big players bar one for unpainted items and always had no as an answer which, is a great shame.

Now, a question as you state you are a traditionalist. would you still be happy if the polystone was changed for lighter materials?

I saw some a few weeks back who were not to happy at this possibility
Mitch

 

[Rob]

Good question Mitch!. I'm not sure I would to be honest. Was just talking about this to James (Eazy) the other day, am so used to weighty figures and AFV's that it would come as a huge shock. If the Polystone figure ever became extinct but the lighter figures looked exactly the same, then maybe, but as it stands I doubt it. Theres just something about a weighty figure that gives me that assurance of quality. Its not a stand re any other company or product its just what I'm used to and what I enjoy, does that make sense?.

Rob

 

[Mitch]

Rob..
Makes sense. I was talking to someone about this the other day who loves the weight about the BBG figures and would not like to see that change also, great detail is a must but, part of the whole picture was the weight.

He was a little less interested in the AFV's weight. For me, I think I do like picking up an AFV and having that initial ''God, thats heavy'' which, I have only really had with K&C and HB.
Mitch

 

[Mike97]

Funny thing about the 'Status Quo"....it's always changing...

I've only been collecting this scale of toy soldier for a couple years, but the quality of sculpting, painting, use of materials AND composition of the companies offering us products has changed and largely improved incredibly fast. You look at the appearance and quality of new KC items coming out today vs. what came out just 5 or so years ago and it's huge (at least to my untrained eyes). That's not to say the older creations were 'sub par' (far from it), but the new generation of releases seem so much more real and lifelike (which I prefer).
I'm looking forward to whatever experiments they want to toss our way. Eventually, success or failure will be determined at the cash register.
mike

 

[Mitch]

Mike...

Strange you bring this up as I was going through some stuff and, some of the older stuff which, you allude to was not the same quality as may be produced today, lets say naive, but, I was struck at how good some sets were interlaced within these.

WSS31 tank riders was and still is some of the best sculpt and painting K&C has done even compared to the figures today as was WSS 29 from the sentry box set and was done as LAH 22.

I always wondered what was going on that they could do such exquisite figures and sets and do the wounded figures and similar around these numbers and some of the early LAH that were more naive in sculpt and painting.

I certainly think K&C has moved forward with the years and was not attaching ''status quo'' to them just ''some'' of the collectors.
Mitch

 

[MapleLeaf]

Ur right guys
The quality has change over time
Today better sculpting and painting
Not only KC but look at CS , TG ,Figarti
Britains has come a long way
It will be interesting to see what will come out of the Figarti
Aeroart alliance, is this a new FL??
To me Beau Geste has been the only consistant figures on the market
from day one it's still the same(AWSOME)
I quess from quality increase , price increase
Maple Leaf

 

[Mike97]

Mike...

I certainly think K&C has moved forward with the years and was not attaching ''status quo'' to them just ''some'' of the collectors.
Mitch

Mitch, I understand where you're coming from. All in all, it's a great time to be involved with this hobby .
mike

 

[fishead19690]

Wow that would be great to see K&C do plastics!!!
I can remember years back when I first joined the forum suggesting that Andy do some plastic figures with his retired molds and almost getting tared and feathered!
http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=703
I guess the times they are a changing???
Back then I couldn,t afford painted metal figures so I was more of a plastic guy and then I switched to metal figures and now I,m back to not being able to afford metal again.

Looks like Hats new interest in 1/32 scale figures has a lot of wargammers now gameing Napoleonics in 1/32 scale! Hint, hint, hint!!! And they buy up tons of figures.

If you do the plastic figures were you thinking of doing new sculpts or using older figures redune in plastic??? And if new figures would they be solid figures
cast in a 2 piece mold with blocking and pose limitations of the mold or multi part figures like Conte with no blocking and LOTS of conversion possiblities?

 

[Patton]

K&C and plastic ??? Yes please !!!

Painted/ Unpainted ?? Dont care. I think it would be ideal for the NAPS skirmishers as a greater quantity of infantry would be able to be purchased and used.

In my opinion K& C should use the plastic option to rerelease some of their older figures, particularly in the WWII range.

Will it work on artlllery or horses ?? Probably not but infantry would be a godsend.

I'm sure K&C would be more reliable than Conte ever were.

 

[aujj65]

I don’t like raining on people’s fireworks but imagine what the financial investment would have to be for the injection moulding tooling for a range of plastic figures and then the high production runs required to cover this. I can’t see it happening unfortunately.

Jeff

 

[Patton]

forgive my lack of technical knowledge - but wouldn't the cost of moulds be the same whether for metal OR plastic ??

And surely the whole idea of plastic figures is to produce larger volumes so as to cater for those people who would wish to purchase 30 or more figures at a time.

Just a thought,

 

[binder001]

Wow, I take a day away from the TF Forum to work on the local election board and all kinds of things happen! Price changes, possible plastics - I'm an old man, take it easy!

I really like the idea of K&C looking at plastics (or working with other companies to produce plastics). But then my background is in plastic toys and models.

I agree that the only way to get any "cost savings" would be unpainted plastics. I have painted quite a few figures over the years and it takes the same time and effort to do a quality job on plastic as it does on metal. Sometimes more time on soft plastic as the seam removal can be tricky in soft material!

I also would vote for a "firm" plastic. The older Conte figures in that "rubbery stuff" are easy to convert, but they are HORRIBLE to try and remove seams, etc for painting and finishing. My personal favorite is the plastic used on Conte GIs - it seems to hold detail, isn't bad to cut, sand or file, and bent rifles can easily be straightened with the "hot water, cold water" technique.

From a construction aspect I also vote for multi-part figures (ala Conte) as these are easy to convert and have better appearance that one-piece figures. I do know that molding costs are higher. As a figure converter I admit to being concerned by a figures adaptability. Having a more complex figure can increase production costs, but having figures that can be converted means that there should be more sales. I keep refering back to Conte GIs - as a collector I would have only needed the 27 available poses, perhaps even sets in different colors, but that doesn't mean big sales. However, as a converter I have gone through HUNDREDS of Conte GIs for myself, for customers and even as parts donors for other projects.

Keep thinking Andy. If you dip your toes I hope they will be up to your standard of sculpting and posing. Obviously I hope for WW2 subjects, but ACW would be cool too

Big question for me - would these potential plastics be in "K&C 1/30th" or "large 54mm" (like TSSD/Conte)??????

Gary B.

 

[trooper]

forgive my lack of technical knowledge - but wouldn't the cost of moulds be the same whether for metal OR plastic ??

,

Metal figures are cast on a centrifuge using rubber moulds which are comparatively cheap. Plastics are produced on a machine which uses metal moulds which are much more expensive.

 

[Mitch]

Does that mean that you cannot create plastic figures unless you have a metal mould or, are there other manufacturing processes which can be used especially in this modern era? How are the prices so varying between the two mediums if plastic moulds cost more I am talking narrowly about the repeated costs of moulds for metal figures being stated as prohibitively high???
Mitch

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Does that mean that you cannot create plastic figures unless you have a metal mould or, are there other manufacturing processes which can be used especially in this modern era? How are the prices so varying between the two mediums if plastic moulds cost more I am talking narrowly about the repeated costs of moulds for metal figures being stated as prohibitively high???
Mitch

The cost of the moulds for plastic figures is very high but is spread over 100,000 (est.) figures vs a few thousand polystone or metal pieces for those cheaper moulds. But the mould cost per figure is much cheaper for plastic as so many more of each figure is made. And I bet the plastic material is cheaper than metal too.

Terry.

 

[Mitch]

Terry...

Thanks but, I was focusing on the mould costings trooper made as it contradicts significantly what was stated to me in some recent threads that moulds for metal figures are prohibitively high.

I understand the costings for the materials etc but, the moulds are at the crux of the question. But, do Conte etc make 100,000 figures every time they make new plastics?
Mitch

 

[binder001]

Plastic figures are still done by injecting hot plastic into a metal mold cavity (i.e. "injection molded"). That implies a tooling cost for the mold used for each figure or group of figures. I'm not sure how the "toy" soldiers are made, but plastic model soldiers come at 4-6 figures on a sprue (plastic frame). Traditionally a plastic figure is done on a larger scale than a metal equivalent. I don't know the production runs involved with Conte, TSSD, Weston, Paragon, etc. In theory a propery constructed and cared for mold has a good life.

I have been told that computer technology has reduced some costs of mold making, but the costs are still amortized over a major run of kits/projects. For the beauty of what can be done in stryrene (model plastic) look at the recent runs of "Generation 2" figures by Dragon (DML). Their slide-molding technology allows unbelievable detail (openings on gun barrels, etc). They maximize the use of their tooling - for instance you might buy three different sets of US Army figures, but each set might well come with the same sprue of small arms, ammo pouches, canteens, etc. That means only the new figures themselves needed to be molded. That's one way of maximizing the effective use of expensive tooling.

Resin figures are done via soft molds. A well done resin figure is a wonder of detail, but the mold does wear out at some point.

 

[kingtoot]

WIll they use the current range of figures but only made of plastic? will these be new poses and figures or just plastic versions of their metal figures? does not sound good to me...pirating will skyrocket with cheap plastic versions of good figures...