Is our Hobby Changing? (2 Viewers)

Hi Desertkiwi,

I really know what you are saying and the feeling.....But Picture this.....It could be worse....{sm2}{sm2}in my case my local currency ( as we speak and it can get worse ) is pegged to the US Dollar at 4 to 1 USD and 6 to 1 Pound....Mailing costs from the UK/USA to Brazil are higher that to Australia/NZ and at the end of the line, regardless of the item value you get stabbed by a 70% import tariff over value of goods plus shipping, that is, the import duties fall on the shipping costs also...absurd as it may seem.....So you are still better than some, at least me and my Brazilian friends in the Forum.....{sm3}{sm3}{sm3}{sm3}:salute::
So the forum and the friends I made here are priceless.....
Cheers
A_C


Desertkiwi said:
Airmail postage can easily double the cost of the TS item you've ordered if you're not careful, but if the value of the imported goods is under $450nz then you usually don't get stung with 15% GST tax by custom's. Then their's our exchange rate which is the hidden killer. It's not bad against the Australian dollar right now, down to 60/70 cents against the US dollar and terrible against the UK pound sterling.

Because of this I order most of my stuff from Australia now, although have purchased the odd item from fellow TF members in the past who live in the US.

I added up my total postage costs covering one 12 month period once and it easily came to a third of my total purchases over that time and then worked out the extra cost our exchange rate added to it all. The result was scary and I can honestly say some of my TS items have cost me twice what they actually retail for.

This of course is a choice and I'm not having a moan, but you can appreciate how envious I am of those of you who have ready access to TS stores and shows you can attend.

It's one of the reasons why I'm extremely careful with my purchases and why the internet and social media sites like TF are so important.

It's also how I've managed to make a whole new bunch of mates all over the globe, least of all that dodgy lot across the ditch in Brisbane of all places.^&grin:salute::
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One change I see becoming more prevalent with collectors are the number of figures. Many collectors would collect several variations of the same AFV(desert, Europe, Eastern Front) in several camo patterns and early and late production models. Now instead of having 10 Tiger tanks, some collectors are keeping only a few Tigers. This thins out the collection but puts pressure on the resale market and makes it harder to sell new production pieces at today's retail prices. Same is true for mass figures like NAPs. Instead of collecting a company sized group, some people are getting a much smaller group of figures to represent a particular regiment.

Terry
 
Hi Terry,

I fully agree with you.....So I really respect the guts and courage of some of our co forum members that can field huge NAPS and AWI/ECW/ACW dios with massed troops, field accessories and the rest.....
Cheers
A_C

Phantom Warrior said:
One change I see becoming more prevalent with collectors are the number of figures. Many collectors would collect several variations of the same AFV(desert, Europe, Eastern Front) in several camo patterns and early and late production models. Now instead of having 10 Tiger tanks, some collectors are keeping only a few Tigers. This thins out the collection but puts pressure on the resale market and makes it harder to sell new production pieces at today's retail prices. Same is true for mass figures like NAPs. Instead of collecting a company sized group, some people are getting a much smaller group of figures to represent a particular regiment.

Terry
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villagehorse said:
arrr those were the days. Robin.
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Great photos and a fantastic collection. I think the Panzer IV and Panther G were some of the best models of those AFVs done to date. The weapons like the MG-42, STG-44 were highly detailed and accurate. The Kubelwagen was superb and I will not even get into the aircraft! Hard to believe all those fine products are history except for Ebay!
 
I am not jumping in to be provocative or argumentative as we all have our opinions and viewpoints.

To be frank, I am somewhat confused, and dissapointed, I will explain why. Firstly though, a conundrum that may explain my confusion. If a manufacturer produces too much product you see a glut on the market ( as has been commented on) and this leads to a reduction in value ( monetary) for the collectors who pay for an item due to either discounting or end of season / range sale and promotions. If a manufacturer releases a limited release piece, with the intention of adding value back to the market and rewarding the collector, they are seen as greedy and profiteering.

My confusion is that we now have two opinions that conflict. Some manufacturers are producing too much product while the newer companies (myself included) are not producing enough........ Can someone give me / us the answer to this? What do you guys want, mass product at a lower retail price ?(maybe). Collectable pieces but with larger runs to enable you time to catch up with your budgets?(understandable, although there are solutions to this). If so, what is the magic number?

If we spin this on its head now and consider from a manufacturers / retailers perspective. Stock = cash flow, lack of cash flow stifles new releases and retailers abilities to stock product. Profit and viability comes from sales. To make a sale you have to be competitive in quality, creativity, customer service and yes, price (amongst many other things). Inventory is fine, but it don't pay the bills........

As a manufacturer, and I can only comment for myself here, and it would be nice to see other manufacturers opinions on this hot topic, it feels I am doomed if I do and doomed if I don't. I am not trying to make a quick buck or profiteer by offering low numbers on releases, I ( like my peers maybe) am trying to put some value back into the hobby but, due to costs, this comes at a price and That is beyond my (and my fellow manufacturers) control.

If a collector wants to collect my range/s but needs to do it slowly but does not want to miss out, I offer a law away option and a couple of people use it. At least two of my retailers offer this too!

Like I say, confused and somewhat dissapointed but that is my fault, as I am passionate about the hobby, my role, my business and my investment.

Back to my sickbed for a while but look forward to reading some replies.

Malcolm. :salute::
 
Part of the confusion you express is caused by the fact that their are two markets for Toy Soldiers.
The traditional Toy Soldier collectors market where figures are limited production and are retired, values rise and support the resale market with a nice profit. Unfortunatly this business model has changed due to inside trading so to speak. The second market are technical collectors who come from modeling into Toy Soldiers with an interest in realism rather than artistic merit. Quality is graded on figure accuracy. K&C is repesentitive of the Artistic group. First Legion is representitiveof the technical group. The customer base has split between the two groups. W. Britains seems to be trying to bridge the two groups by offering technically accurate figures and a realistic price point for very good quality. W. Britains falls in between K&C and First Legion in price, quality and accuracy and I believe this business model will be successful as it appeals to both market seqments. The poor world ecconomy is killing off the traditional Toy Soldier paradigm as labor prices in China have increased. Attempts to maintain prices have resulted in quality decreasing. Figarti was based on making high quality products at relatively high prices and is the first to depart the field. I think the limited production concept is partially at fault. Make a quality product at a fair price and people will buy it; if it meets their needs! First and formost listen to your customers!
 
katana said:
Part of the confusion you express is caused by the fact that their are two markets for Toy Soldiers.
The traditional Toy Soldier collectors market where figures are limited production and are retired, values rise and support the resale market with a nice profit. Unfortunatly this business model has changed due to inside trading so to speak. The second market are technical collectors who come from modeling into Toy Soldiers with an interest in realism rather than artistic merit. Quality is graded on figure accuracy. K&C is repesentitive of the Artistic group. First Legion is representitiveof the technical group. The customer base has split between the two groups. W. Britains seems to be trying to bridge the two groups by offering technically accurate figures and a realistic price point for very good quality. W. Britains falls in between K&C and First Legion in price, quality and accuracy and I believe this business model will be successful as it appeals to both market seqments. The poor world ecconomy is killing off the traditional Toy Soldier paradigm as labor prices in China have increased. Attempts to maintain prices have resulted in quality decreasing. Figarti was based on making high quality products at relatively high prices and is the first to depart the field. I think the limited production concept is partially at fault. Make a quality product at a fair price and people will buy it; if it meets their needs! First and formost listen to your customers!
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Well, I like to think Empire covers both markets you mention and the one thing I do is listen Tommy customers, trust me on that one!

It would help if any customer / potential customer made their request clear and also realistic? I would live to make accurate figures in batches of 50 and sell them for $20, just like I would like to sell magic beans.
 
I think W. Britains has it about right in terms of price and quality! I have no idea what a production quantity per figure shoud be; but the more you make the less cost per unit is typical in most business models. Obviously some figures sell better than others; WWII is always popular, the War of 1812 not so much. Picking obscure conflicts or vehicles to avoid competition does not seem to work very well; as evidenced by the glut of unwanted Toy Soldier figures and vehicles on Ebay. I would say Ebay is an excellent means of determining what not to make and what level of quality/price sells! Lessons can also be learned from the companys that no longer exist. New Model Army, Figarti probably and more to come unfortunatly! I am amazed at how many Toy Soldier companys are still viable given some of the prevalent quality and price issues!
 
Regarding the strategies of lower priced "mass production" and/or higher price/value limited production my solution is as follows:
Every army had basic poses and uniforms along with special forces, personalities and uncommon poses.

Why not offer unlimited basic pose figures, e.g. firing/loading, marching/advancing, casualties and some officers.
Special limited editions can then be introduced for elite units, personalities, hand to hand sets, flag bearers, officers in non-standard poses and perhaps camp scenes.
Some collectors want to create more populated dioramas and don't mind duplicates. If a series proves to be popular you can always create more "specials" of either different
regiments or new poses.
Its very frustrating for those who cannot buy all at one time and for those who want to participate after the fact and find a series is sold out. You can pay more for limited editions
on the aftermarket if you want more diversity or wait for a newer release with different poses or uniforms.

For another example, FL sold out of its original Roman Legions but have offered new Legions in the same basic poses with new painting.

I think that K&C and WB keep basic pose figures around for a loner period of time.
 
Resin figures offer a lower cost higher quality product. More detail can be cast onto the figure reducing assembly labor. BBI 1/18 Warriors of the World series and Schleich have achieved remarkable realism in their 90mm plastic figures. I have a BBI 90mm figure of Edward the Black Prince which is so well cast and painted that you would think it is metal until you pick it up! The detail and colors are excellent. The price for these superb figures was $8.00 foot and $14.00 mounted. The BBI Roman Legionaries are equally well done. I have combat dioramas on several book shelves using these figures. If BBI can make 90mm figures of this quality why cannot the 60mm Toy Soldier manufacturers do the same at a reasonable price?
 
Never let it be said that I do not listen or take on board comments from collectors.

People have been saying they would like to see prices come down and, I am sure, some folks feel that to be the case with our figures that retail in the USA for $46.00 each and for £37.50 in the UK. Well, as of today, our figure prices have come down by 10%! We have achieved this in the form of a loyalty scheme that works WITH our retailers as well as with ourselves direct.

By the introduction of the free collectors club and the loyalty card scheme, you will get every 10th figure FREE. So we have, in effect reduced the cost of our foot figures to $41.40 and £33.75 for those people who buy a range. By the end of March our WW1 range will consist of 27 figures, our Colonial range will consist of 12 figures and the ECW range consist of 8 figures (4 being mounted and counting as double points so in effect increasing the range to 12 figures in value terms).

Before anyone moans that this is just a way of getting more people to spend more money (which in real terms it is not) please try to understand this. I could not just drop our prices by 10% as this would reduce the stock value of the items held in stock by my retailers and of course write down the stock value of goods already in the business. I wanted to do something to help and reward customers / collectors and so came up with this solution that rewards everyone.

Full details are on our Facebook page and of course in our Treefrog Forum space. I hope this helps some of you in some way and shows my commitment to you, the collectors and of course, my retail partners.

Thanks,

Malcolm.:salute::
 
I think the threshold of financial pain for many Toy Soldier WWII collectors is about $200 for vehicles and $42 for figures. Once those prices are exceeded by Toy Soldier manufacturers I make other choices in collecting; diecast model aircraft, HO and O gauge model trains, RC Tanks etc.
I appreciate the quality of First Legion figures, Armor and Artillery; but their quality is close to other manufacturers and I could buy Figarti Armor and Artillery for 30% less than First Legion. I like high quality figures but when I wish to have more or better detail I move to larger figures like 90mm.
I seriously believe the future of Toy Soldier figures lies with resin for reasons of cost and better detail. I recently built a spin cast resin 1/125 scale model of the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea Nautilus and every single rivet was present, clear and crisp. The 1/16 scale Panzerwaffe kits from Tamiya have amazing detail; although you have to build them and paint them, it is far more easy to do in 1/16 than 1/35!
 
katana said:
I think the threshold of financial pain for many Toy Soldier WWII collectors is about $200 for vehicles and $42 for figures. Once those prices are exceeded by Toy Soldier manufacturers I make other choices in collecting; diecast model aircraft, HO and O gauge model trains, RC Tanks etc.
I appreciate the quality of First Legion figures, Armor and Artillery; but their quality is close to other manufacturers and I could buy Figarti Armor and Artillery for 30% less than First Legion. I like high quality figures but when I wish to have more or better detail I move to larger figures like 90mm.
I seriously believe the future of Toy Soldier figures lies with resin for reasons of cost and better detail. I recently built a spin cast resin 1/125 scale model of the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea Nautilus and every single rivet was present, clear and crisp. The 1/16 scale Panzerwaffe kits from Tamiya have amazing detail; although you have to build them and paint them, it is far more easy to do in 1/16 than 1/35!
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Think your being unfair to just single out First Legion when K&C latest figures are $49.00 and the Fury Sherman tank $220.00
 
katana said:
I think the threshold of financial pain for many Toy Soldier WWII collectors is about $200 for vehicles and $42 for figures. Once those prices are exceeded by Toy Soldier manufacturers I make other choices in collecting; diecast model aircraft, HO and O gauge model trains, RC Tanks etc.
I appreciate the quality of First Legion figures, Armor and Artillery; but their quality is close to other manufacturers and I could buy Figarti Armor and Artillery for 30% less than First Legion. I like high quality figures but when I wish to have more or better detail I move to larger figures like 90mm.
I seriously believe the future of Toy Soldier figures lies with resin for reasons of cost and better detail. I recently built a spin cast resin 1/125 scale model of the 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea Nautilus and every single rivet was present, clear and crisp. The 1/16 scale Panzerwaffe kits from Tamiya have amazing detail; although you have to build them and paint them, it is far more easy to do in 1/16 than 1/35!
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Katana what do you think of FL 251?image.jpeg
 
uksubs said:
Think your being unfair to just single out First Legion when K&C latest figures are $49.00 and the Fury Sherman tank $220.00
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First Legion figures are now $60.00 and Panzers are $300.00 I can buy two TCS or TG Panzers for that price. First Legion are the highest price WWII 1/30 scale figures and vehicles. I concider them overpriced and I would not pay that price whoever was making them! I buy K&C and TCS figures for 1/28 scale and WB for 1/30 scale. The new WB Fallschirmjager are as good or better than First Legion at 62% of the price!
 
uksubs said:
Katana what do you think of FL 251?View attachment 187935
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The First Legion Sd.Kfz 251 is a very nice model; although I understand the boxes, tarps and jerry cans are glued in plac ; which I do not like. I have the Minichamps Summer Camo version; which I consider of equivalent quality and it is Diecast metal with working metal tracks and an engine compartment complete with engine. I paid $100.00 for the Minichamps. I would not even consider paying $300.00 for the First Legion.
 
katana said:
First Legion figures are now $60.00 and Panzers are $300.00 I can buy two TCS or TG Panzers for that price. First Legion are the highest price WWII 1/30 scale figures and vehicles. I concider them overpriced and I would not pay that price whoever was making them! I buy K&C and TCS figures for 1/28 scale and WB for 1/30 scale. The new WB Fallschirmjager are as good or better than First Legion at 62% of the price!
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That's what choice is about, isn't it:wink2:
 
For what it is worth. I bought the 251 the other week and in my opinion it is worth every penny. Extremely detailed and excellent painting. The figure inside is also well painted. Even the shoulder boards were painted the appropriate arm.
 
katana said:
The First Legion Sd.Kfz 251 is a very nice model; although I understand the boxes, tarps and jerry cans are glued in plac ; which I do not like. I have the Minichamps Summer Camo version; which I consider of equivalent quality and it is Diecast metal with working metal tracks and an engine compartment complete with engine. I paid $100.00 for the Minichamps. I would not even consider paying $300.00 for the First Legion.
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Katana, it's been awhile since I looked at the minichamps brand but if you think this product pictured here is on the same level with the First Legion Halftrack apparently scale issues aren't the only thing your missing....I'm not going to get into a who's is better argument but if it's one thing I dislike is another member telling me I spent to much money on this or that when I should or could have bought this or that at a better price, it's as Brad said it's all about choice, so it's great you collect K&C, Figarti, Minichamps or whatever floats your boat and you pay X amount on those sets, just as I pay X amount on my First Legion sets, just leave the BS about who/what is better as it's all a personal preference to each and every collector...Sammy
 
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