Isreal (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter sammy719
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tdubel
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Unfortunately, it has always been a reality in that part of the world. Israel is always bearing the brunt of the hate IMO. War is unfortunate in any circumstances, but I do believe Israel is serious this time in their response. They feel like they have done everything they can and are still attacked, so IMO, I believe this is going to get a lot worse. I also stand with Israel for many reasons obviously with my family, but I also stand with them as an American, because IMO, they are the only true friend and ally we have in the Middle East.
TD
TD
jazzeum
Four Star General
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What happened is the worst thing since the Holocaust and as a Jew I find it very difficult to read the stories. Too difficult. However, to a certain extent I blame Netenyahu; he left the country unprepared. Had they been Hamas would have turned aside. Israeli commentators have been warning about the situation for a long time, particularly in letting Hamas grow but more importantly in trying to sweep the problem of sweeping the Palestinian issue under the rug and how they treat them. This is Hamas’s objective: don’t forget about us. They can decapitate Hamas but the larger problem still remains. In addition, I expect this will cost Likud, the governing party. The Labor Party was the dominant party until the first Yom Kipper War. They have never recovered.
Combat
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In the year 2023, it is unreal that we are still dealing with endless wars and these types of events. I can remember after 9/11 that there was anger and an understandable desire for revenge. That led to 20 years of war in which things were arguably no different at the end than the beginning except for tens of thousands more dead. It poses the age-old question of what do when civilized people are confronted with acts of barbarity. Many smart and well-intentioned people have tried to solve these issues and failed. The impulse is to enact vengeance, but a long history of this cycle of violence tells us that doesn't work. It is discouraging. There does not seem to be any answer. War doesn't work. Peace doesn't work. I can see a long war, thousands killed on both sides (many of whom will have had nothing to do with this event), lots of suffering and when all is said and done nothing changing. A new generation of people with grievances will be created who will commit similar acts in the future. The terrorists who were responsible for this act likely wanted to start a war to derail various peace initiatives. And, unfortunately, they will have succeeded in that regard. Not sure there is any other option, however.
Alexander the Great
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I agree. I do stand with Israel for many reasons plus the second democracy in the middle east (yes there is one more: Cyprus). I would have responded the same way that Israel has responded. Having said this, we have to understand that there is no answer to this, Hamas will not go away and if it does it will be replaced by something else. Innocents will continue to suffer on both sides. The only long term answer is for Palestinians to understand that Israel is not going to go away and for Israel to find a way to better help them make their life easier/better so that they do not align with and support terrorists like Hamas in the future...not an easy answer for sure.
jazzeum
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If you are looking for some good books on Israel’s wars, I can recommend Michael Oren’s Six Days of War, Benny Morris’s 1948: The First Arab-Israeli War, and Yom Kippur War: The Epic Encounter that Transformed the Middle East by Abraham Rabinovich.
sammy719
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Brad, forgive my ignorance but what is the actual reason for the War ?? Land?? Religion?? Jewish State vs. Arab?, where did this hate start,??
jazzeum
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Books have been written about this. I will try to get back to you later as I have to go out now.
Go for Broke
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For the most part mankind is terrible. Greedy. We'll never get along. Sometimes I just want to be hermit. I'm reading this book about Comanches in Texas & Oklahoma. Brutal.
On another note, I see the USA carrier group as a deterrent to prevent other groups in joining Hamas. Other than that, Israel don't need our help. They probably have the best trained army in the world.
On another note, I see the USA carrier group as a deterrent to prevent other groups in joining Hamas. Other than that, Israel don't need our help. They probably have the best trained army in the world.
Combat
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There was a nice high-level summary in USA Today: https://www.usatoday.com/story/grap...amas-attacks-war-in-gaza-in-maps/71098600007/
jazzeum
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This is a rather nice description of the history of the last 100 plus years.
One thing I want to mention is that in the late 19th Century Jews and Arabs lived in general harmony in Palestine but there weren’t a lot of Jews in Palestine. Moreover, government control by the Ottoman Empire was decentralized so any influx of Jews from Europe wasn’t tightly controlled. In addition many of the Arab countries like Egypt and Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq) had sizable Jewish populations. Of course after Israel was formed in 1948, Jews were expelled or chose to move to Israel.
Things began to change when the Zionist movement (Jewish homeland) was formed and Jews started to trickle into Palestine and buy up the lands of Arabs.
jazzeum
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Fast forward to the present day and even before October 7, you had a fraught situation.
The present government is the most extreme one Israel has ever had. Life for the Palestinians who are not Israeli citizens is very difficult. The government wishes to bury the two state solution and continue to build settlements in the West Bank. When Palestinians are paid for their land, they are paid very little, if at all. Many Palestinians work in Israel but the authorities make getting into Israel very difficult. If there is conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, the authorities may bulldoze their homes. This situation can’t go on.
The government wants to weaken the Supreme Court. Part of the reason is that Netanyahu is under indictment for corruption. His attempts to weaken the Court’s powers has split Israeli society, led to huge demonstrations and led to violent conflict on occasion. People who are against these changes fear it would weaken their democracy and the Basic Laws; Israel has no constitution. Many reservists said they would not fight for Israel if the reforms were passed by Parliament, which they were.
The American Jewish community has always supported Israel but in the last few years the government’s policies have alienated a lot of people and the government has lost a lot of support. I stopped supporting them a few years ago as I couldn’t abide by what they were doing in the West Bank.
The Iranians are not dumb. They saw how the Israelis were split and their attentions distracted and calculated it was a good time to strike.
The present government is the most extreme one Israel has ever had. Life for the Palestinians who are not Israeli citizens is very difficult. The government wishes to bury the two state solution and continue to build settlements in the West Bank. When Palestinians are paid for their land, they are paid very little, if at all. Many Palestinians work in Israel but the authorities make getting into Israel very difficult. If there is conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, the authorities may bulldoze their homes. This situation can’t go on.
The government wants to weaken the Supreme Court. Part of the reason is that Netanyahu is under indictment for corruption. His attempts to weaken the Court’s powers has split Israeli society, led to huge demonstrations and led to violent conflict on occasion. People who are against these changes fear it would weaken their democracy and the Basic Laws; Israel has no constitution. Many reservists said they would not fight for Israel if the reforms were passed by Parliament, which they were.
The American Jewish community has always supported Israel but in the last few years the government’s policies have alienated a lot of people and the government has lost a lot of support. I stopped supporting them a few years ago as I couldn’t abide by what they were doing in the West Bank.
The Iranians are not dumb. They saw how the Israelis were split and their attentions distracted and calculated it was a good time to strike.
tdubel
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Well, I for one support Israel yesterday, today and forward unequivocally. There is no other option, they are our only true friend in an area that hates and plots the demise of the West every single day. Sorry, but there is no other option. Israel is one of our best friends and always will be. It is ludicrous to think anything else in today's world.
Finally, on another note, this horrendous action and reaction has now reduced my son's fraternity at Texas to hire armed security for the foreseeable future. Why, because the threat is real. I hate to say this, but I am not sure the world has yet realized how serious this situation is right now. These radical idiots are everywhere, and we need to wake up to it. The fact that this is happening at my son's school would have been incredulous to me last week. There have been numerous pro Hamas actions already there in the wake of this, just mind boggling that this kind of crap is tolerated, it is NOT protest, it is terrorism and hate.
TD
Finally, on another note, this horrendous action and reaction has now reduced my son's fraternity at Texas to hire armed security for the foreseeable future. Why, because the threat is real. I hate to say this, but I am not sure the world has yet realized how serious this situation is right now. These radical idiots are everywhere, and we need to wake up to it. The fact that this is happening at my son's school would have been incredulous to me last week. There have been numerous pro Hamas actions already there in the wake of this, just mind boggling that this kind of crap is tolerated, it is NOT protest, it is terrorism and hate.
TD
Louis Badolato
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I also stand with Israel, but agree with Brad's points. Unfortunately, no matter what is done, I see very little hope for an end to the violence and hatred. The middle east has no shortage of three things: sand, oil, and religious fanaticism. As long as the third of these three items remains common, there is no hope of peace in the Middle East.
jazzeum
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Did they have to hire armed guards because they were harassing Jewish students. The protests that have arisen (think there was one in New York City) celebrating what happened makes my blood boil.
tdubel
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Yes, it is just unbelievable, same thing in Austin and yes direct threats against all Jewish groups, both religious and fraternal. It is a very ugly situation. I would have never thought this would happen there, even as "weird" as it can be.
Tom