Issues With Nazi Figures (1 Viewer)

[Bessieres]

I'm a newbie and yesterday, I hijacked a thread by attacking it believing that it glorified German actions in WW II:
Battle of Kholm The Germans Survive another night to fight

My post and subsequent dialogue were deleted & I was directed to this section of Forums which is more appropriate place and in fact, I find the nature of my subject had been previously discussed:
Gestapo-Staff-Car-Incident

Kholm was the German's Eastern Front equivalent to the GIs at Bastogne. Hitler issued many decorations to those serving there.

There was nothing wrong intrinsically with the figures or the diorama set-up in the Kholm post. I had issues with the title and the narrative which I felt glorified the German actions. The OP's description of Kholm seemed to show them as heroes..

Equally offensive were comments posted saying "Good Story!".

Germans set out to conquer the lands of people they thought inferior and then to exterminate or enslave them. They were particularly brutal with civilians on the Eastern front. Units at Kholm participated in atrocities against civilians; men, women & children.

Born in Russia, 2/3 of my immediate family were killed by the Germans in concentration camps. A few others survived with number tattoos on their arms. I grew up hearing their stories - none of them involving Germans, were "good".

Anyway, wanted to post my opinion and appreciate having a place to do so.
Thanks.

 

[zulucollector]

I'm a newbie and yesterday, I hijacked a thread by attacking it believing that it glorified German actions in WW II:
Battle of Kholm The Germans Survive another night to fight

My post and subsequent dialogue were deleted & I was directed to this section of Forums which is more appropriate place and in fact, I find the nature of my subject had been previously discussed:
Gestapo-Staff-Car-Incident

Kholm was the German's Eastern Front equivalent to the GIs at Bastogne. Hitler issued many decorations to those serving there.

There was nothing wrong intrinsically with the figures or the diorama set-up in the Kholm post. I had issues with the title and the narrative which I felt glorified the German actions. The OP's description of Kholm seemed to show them as heroes..

Equally offensive were comments posted saying "Good Story!".

Germans set out to conquer the lands of people they thought inferior and then to exterminate or enslave them. They were particularly brutal with civilians on the Eastern front. Units at Kholm participated in atrocities against civilians; men, women & children.

Born in Russia, 2/3 of my immediate family were killed by the Germans in concentration camps. A few others survived with number tattoos on their arms. I grew up hearing their stories - none of them involving Germans, were "good".

Anyway, wanted to post my opinion and appreciate having a place to do so.
Thanks.

This is a tricky post especially considering there was a lively debate of all things on camo paint.... Personally I think where good taste becomes bad taste for the sake of realism is a double edged sword for TS companies. As a Canadian I am not a big fan of the panzermeyer sets, but I understand if they sell and that is why they make them. There are a few sets I find in bad taste, wbritains ww1 on the toilet set, K&C pissing on a photo of hitler as I think they have little historical value. On the other hand, I am okay with K&C execution set for Battle of the Bulge, Cossack prisioner and gestapo car sets despite the fact that I think they have more shock value than merit. Now saying all that.. I would have taken a different view if Andy had not taken done the French resistance sets so I for what it worth I give him the benefit of the doubt on this topic....

 

[Mitch]

War is hell so it has been said. This forum has seen a number of posts like the way that you added your comments to a thread yesterday and, there have been a number of little battles between those who like to state all German or Nazi things were bad and the allies were all good and sweetness and light.

I note that there always seems to be some connection true, implied or just sometimes used for added effect as it kind of makes the stance that little bit stronger in the posters opinion if their is a mention of family affected by the Genocide. Please note that I don't know your from the proverbial ''larry'' so, I am not saying that you are the latter.

For me just because one side started the war does not mean that acts of what are now known as war crimes cannot be committed against them. Your comments yesterday kind of stated well, tough they got what they deserve. That, if you forgive me, is a narrow standpoint and will only keep you filled with hate. You are entitled to your opinion but, so am I.

I found some of your comments about the mass rape, torture and murder of German civilians as crass and rather unnecessary when there are a number of German members on the forum.

You may not want to forgive but, you must address the times these act occurred and the stance of the sides involved. You need to see that Russia was a country ran by a brutal totalitarian regime that has rightly or wrongly just not been given, lets say, the sympathy because of that for the loss of 20 million of its people. so, its really hard to accept your stance when Russia has committed measurably worse crimes both in physical nature and in terms of the numbers killed at their hands than Wartime Germany ever could have done.

You really lost IMO any right to comment when you took that standpoint.

You have the standpoint that you do but, you have to understand and accept that some people just don't care about these things or, just want to collect toy soldiers and do their own little bit of history enacting through what they buy and what interests them. That does not mean they glorify the regimes they are depicting and they should not face the rather blinkered response from those who dislike it. Your doing what you accuse the Germans of having done acted without tolerance and respect for a different opinion etc.

You are probably, with respect, in the wrong hobby if toy soldiers can upset you in such terms and make a link with real history from them.

I personally don't find anything made offensive they depict war and all that that entails. They are what they are its what individuals see them as that is the real problem. In that respect then documentaries like the world at war should be offensive and similar. where does it end?

I did see you post about the reich chancellory garden at the end of the war and leave a wink face at the end so, maybe your hunting around for a train wreck who knows? if the subject offends why involve yourself and be offended more?
Mitch

 

[Bessieres]

War is hell so it has been said. This forum has seen a number of posts like the way that you added your comments to a thread yesterday and, there have been a number of little battles between those who like to state all German or Nazi things were bad and the allies were all good and sweetness and light.

I note that there always seems to be some connection true, implied or just sometimes used for added effect as it kind of makes the stance that little bit stronger in the posters opinion if their is a mention of family affected by the Genocide. Please note that I don't know your from the proverbial ''larry'' so, I am not saying that you are the latter.

For me just because one side started the war does not mean that acts of what are now known as war crimes cannot be committed against them. Your comments yesterday kind of stated well, tough they got what they deserve. That, if you forgive me, is a narrow standpoint and will only keep you filled with hate. You are entitled to your opinion but, so am I.

I found some of your comments about the mass rape, torture and murder of German civilians as crass and rather unnecessary when there are a number of German members on the forum.

You may not want to forgive but, you must address the times these act occurred and the stance of the sides involved. You need to see that Russia was a country ran by a brutal totalitarian regime that has rightly or wrongly just not been given, lets say, the sympathy because of that for the loss of 20 million of its people. so, its really hard to accept your stance when Russia has committed measurably worse crimes both in physical nature and in terms of the numbers killed at their hands than Wartime Germany ever could have done.

You really lost IMO any right to comment when you took that standpoint.

You have the standpoint that you do but, you have to understand and accept that some people just don't care about these things or, just want to collect toy soldiers and do their own little bit of history enacting through what they buy and what interests them. That does not mean they glorify the regimes they are depicting and they should not face the rather blinkered response from those who dislike it. Your doing what you accuse the Germans of having done acted without tolerance and respect for a different opinion etc.

You are probably, with respect, in the wrong hobby if toy soldiers can upset you in such terms and make a link with real history from them.

I personally don't find anything made offensive they depict war and all that that entails. They are what they are its what individuals see them as that is the real problem. In that respect then documentaries like the world at war should be offensive and similar. where does it end?

I did see you post about the reich chancellory garden at the end of the war and leave a wink face at the end so, maybe your hunting around for a train wreck who knows? if the subject offends why involve yourself and be offended more?
Mitch

I hadn't thought about posting my thoughts in a separate section of the forums and realize my posting negative comments on original posts is wrong; so now we are here.. where I'm free to express my opinion fully, as are you.

No matter what you say in defense or try to deflect blame by bringing up the Soviets, the 3rd Reich was one of the most heinous societies in history. And I will not forgive the original perpetrators and supporters - it's personal.

Toy soldiers are often discovered at childhood when gameplay may be simple, idealized and naïve. The first sets I had over 50 years ago were glossy figures in classic poses. There were no dead or dying - they certainly did not "depict war and that it entails". That came later. I don't have a problem with that development as hobbyists continue to strive for more realism and accuracy; that's cool.

But some of these Nazi sets become more like (newly made) Nazi memorabilia than they are like "TOY" soldiers. Models of the SS parading before the fuhrer in front of the chancellory? Really?

Go for it if you like, but to me that's creepy - and if you show it to me, I'll tell you so.

Enjoy your little bit of history..

 

[Mitch]

well, what you consider Nazi memorabilia others don't. As I mentioned to you before the modern military miniature hobby seems not to be for you but, good luck telling some of the heavy German collectors on here they are creepy.
Mitch

 

[Poppo]

well, what you consider Nazi memorabilia others don't. As I mentioned to you before the modern military miniature hobby seems not to be for you but, good luck telling some of the heavy German collectors on here they are creepy.
Mitch

{sm4}

 

[Bessieres]

well, what you consider Nazi memorabilia others don't. As I mentioned to you before the modern military miniature hobby seems not to be for you but, good luck telling some of the heavy German collectors on here they are creepy.
Mitch

I already told them..

Look, I have models of German tanks and aircraft. German equipment was advanced, their uniforms stylish. Even their logos are great as logos.

However their ideology and actions were reprehensible.

 

[Peter Reuss]

You may not want to forgive but, you must address the times these act occurred and the stance of the sides involved. You need to see that Russia was a country ran by a brutal totalitarian regime that has rightly or wrongly just not been given, lets say, the sympathy because of that for the loss of 20 million of its people. so, its really hard to accept your stance when Russia has committed measurably worse crimes both in physical nature and in terms of the numbers killed at their hands than Wartime Germany ever could have done.

You really lost IMO any right to comment when you took that standpoint.

...

You are probably, with respect, in the wrong hobby if toy soldiers can upset you in such terms and make a link with real history from them.

Mitch

We've plowed this ground (do toy soldiers glorify Nazis) before, so claiming that someone has 'lost the right to comment' and are 'in the wrong hobby' is a bit over the top. Plenty of toy soldier collectors aren't comfortable with Nazi figures.

People have opinions. They don't always agree. We can share them without vilifying each other.

 

[The Military Workshop]

I'm a newbie and yesterday, I hijacked a thread by attacking it believing that it glorified German actions in WW II:
Battle of Kholm The Germans Survive another night to fight

My post and subsequent dialogue were deleted & I was directed to this section of Forums which is more appropriate place and in fact, I find the nature of my subject had been previously discussed:
Gestapo-Staff-Car-Incident

Kholm was the German's Eastern Front equivalent to the GIs at Bastogne. Hitler issued many decorations to those serving there.

There was nothing wrong intrinsically with the figures or the diorama set-up in the Kholm post. I had issues with the title and the narrative which I felt glorified the German actions. The OP's description of Kholm seemed to show them as heroes..

Equally offensive were comments posted saying "Good Story!".

Germans set out to conquer the lands of people they thought inferior and then to exterminate or enslave them. They were particularly brutal with civilians on the Eastern front. Units at Kholm participated in atrocities against civilians; men, women & children.

Born in Russia, 2/3 of my immediate family were killed by the Germans in concentration camps. A few others survived with number tattoos on their arms. I grew up hearing their stories - none of them involving Germans, were "good".

Anyway, wanted to post my opinion and appreciate having a place to do so.
Thanks.

If that post of a diorama and the good story comments offended you then your thoughts could probably apply to many other threads that have appeared on this forum.

I can find nothing offensive in the title Battle-Of-Kholm-The-Germans-Survive-another-night-to-fight and the poster was simply telling a story with his images/figures. When somebody posted good story that does not imply any support for what the Germans did but merely that it is a nice diorama.

Whilst I sympathise with your views on what the Germans did in Russia you should remember there are others who might not feel so kindly towards the Russians. The famous image of the Russians raising the flag over Berlin looks glorious but the reality is that the Russian army did not cover themselves in glory by their behaviour during or after the war. Some of your comments about invading other lands and treatment of civilians can as equally apply to Stalin's troops as it does to Hitler's.

Reverse the situation and say you had put up a diorama of Russians surrounded by numerically superior Germans. A forum member with Polish background could just as easily raise similar kind of objections and bring up the Katyn massacre or the deliberate delay in entering Warsaw to illustrate their point. How many countries did Russia take over against their will at the end of the war ?

In many of the diorama threads on the forum there would be different views about the actual history of what is being portrayed. The Mods do a pretty good job keeping the threads civil and trying to prevent arguments or hijacking of threads etc. If you object to the words good story in relation to German figures you might want to avoid reading further any thread which starts with a German image.

As somebody from a British background I have a different view of the Russians at that time and it was unfortunate for Churchill and Roosevelt they had to deal with a leader such as Stalin.

 

[Bessieres]

If that post of a diorama and the good story comments offended you then your thoughts could probably apply to many other threads that have appeared on this forum.

I can find nothing offensive in the title Battle-Of-Kholm-The-Germans-Survive-another-night-to-fight and the poster was simply telling a story with his images/figures. When somebody posted good story that does not imply any support for what the Germans did but merely that it is a nice diorama.

Whilst I sympathise with your views on what the Germans did in Russia you should remember there are others who might not feel so kindly towards the Russians. The famous image of the Russians raising the flag over Berlin looks glorious but the reality is that the Russian army did not cover themselves in glory by their behaviour during or after the war. Some of your comments about invading other lands and treatment of civilians can as equally apply to Stalin's troops as it does to Hitler's.

Reverse the situation and say you had put up a diorama of Russians surrounded by numerically superior Germans. A forum member with Polish background could just as easily raise similar kind of objections and bring up the Katyn massacre or the deliberate delay in entering Warsaw to illustrate their point. How many countries did Russia take over against their will at the end of the war ?

In many of the diorama threads on the forum there would be different views about the actual history of what is being portrayed. The Mods do a pretty good job keeping the threads civil and trying to prevent arguments or hijacking of threads etc. If you object to the words good story in relation to German figures you might want to avoid reading further any thread which starts with a German image.

As somebody from a British background I have a different view of the Russians at that time and it was unfortunate for Churchill and Roosevelt they had to deal with a leader such as Stalin.

My favorite quote is: "there's no reality, only perception"..

The story of Kholm is that the Germans held out against Russian attacks for over 100 days. I took it to mean that that and other details of the action in the OP's descriptions, was the "good" story. (I've already pointed out German atrocities at Kholm and the Eastern front in general).

I already mentioned that the Germans brought their incredible brutality first. It would be naïve to think Russian soldiers would take no revenge.

The majority of posts with German figures & equipment are quite ok - but the SS marching before the fuhrer in front of the chancellery is something else.

Finally, I might take similar offense at certain depictions of Bolsheviks and Japanese troops.

 

[The Military Workshop]

I already mentioned that the Germans brought their incredible brutality first. It would be naïve to think Russian soldiers would take no revenge.".

Well as we all know the Russians certainly got their revenge, much at the expense of innocent civilians.

I guess I could express the view that it would have been nice to see the Poles get some revenge for what happened to them at the hands of the Russians. Who brought their brutality first at Katyn ?

Last post on the subject but I do find it ironic to see somebody trying to put up Russian actions in WW2 as somehow morally superior to the Germans.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

This is a touchy subject for many here on the forum. There are many WWII collectors that do as myself actively buy and collect WWII German figures and vehicles.
A true History and Military enthusiast most times finds it easy to get past the "Atrocities" committed part during the war and just simply collect as this "Was" all a
very big part of our Modern History and the 20th Century. Lest we not forget there were many other nations that committed atrocities too during the war.
Keep the Historical miniatures coming ! :salute::

 

[Jack]

This is a touchy subject for many here on the forum. There are many WWII collectors that do as myself actively buy and collect WWII German figures and vehicles.
A true History and Military enthusiast most times finds it easy to get past the "Atrocities" committed part during the war and just simply collect as this "Was" all a
very big part of our Modern History and the 20th Century. Lest we not forget there were many other nations that committed atrocities too during the war.
Keep the Historical miniatures coming ! :salute::

It is always the sheer scale of the atrocities that prove a bit difficult to get over ... that and the fact that they were perpetrated by a European government and were therefore a little closer to home for many, many people. Occuring as they did as a central tenet of national policy makes them far more chilling. That they occured not only in the heat of battle but as a 'societal norm' gives them a claim to stand as a special, though not unique case. As I have said in other threads, I collect figures from the Anglo-Zulu Wars and perhaps a Zulu might level those charges against those collectors who glorify the 'Scramble for Africa'.

For me, it is always the gas chambers that make it difficult for me to rationalise it historically. Hardly surprising, I suppose, given that they were the antithesis of rationale, 'civilised' behaviour. I would add, however, that it is a very long bow to draw to make assumptions about someone based on their collecting habits. I suspect that the vast majority of neo-Nazis are in fact not big collectors. Some probably play golf. I do fear, however, the justification that 'everyone' or 'many peoples' have committed atrocities (which is not what my friend PA44 said. He called for a recognition of shared shortcomings so it is not a criticsm of his post). Because on this scale, in a modern context, supported by national policy, it is not true that we are all equal. The Australian treatment of our indigenous people was very, very poor. At times, it was awful. I cannot belittle the enormity of the Holocaust by considereing them as equal. The recognition of evil acts (as opposed to characterising any nation as evil which I cannot support) does not demand that I am a saint before I can speak.

I also recognise that other countries (people have discussed Russia but obviously not just them either) but I have discussed Germany because of the thread's topic.

 

[jager7080]

My favorite quote is: "there's no reality, only perception"..

The story of Kholm is that the Germans held out against Russian attacks for over 100 days. I took it to mean that that and other details of the action in the OP's descriptions, was the "good" story. (I've already pointed out German atrocities at Kholm and the Eastern front in general).

I already mentioned that the Germans brought their incredible brutality first. It would be naïve to think Russian soldiers would take no revenge.

The majority of posts with German figures & equipment are quite ok - but the SS marching before the fuhrer in front of the chancellery is something else.

Finally, I might take similar offense at certain depictions of Bolsheviks and Japanese troops.

My grandfather & grandmother on my fathers side were polish , & when i was little i remember him say " i have no love for the germans but at least they came to fight , the russian's snuck in when we were busy fighting & stabbed poland in the back , in my book that makes them cowards "

Joe

 

[Bessieres]

My grandfather & grandmother on my fathers side were polish , & when i was little i remember him say " i have no love for the germans but at least they came to fight , the russian's snuck in when we were busy fighting & stabbed poland in the back , in my book that makes them cowards "

Joe

My father's family lived in Poland. The Germans did come to fight and conquer, but they also rounded up peoples in those conquered territories for extermination.

No other government institutionalized mass murder, GENOCIDE as did the Germans: Freight trains of human cargo, millions of men women and children transported to purposely built death centers. My family was among those rounded up in Poland.

Russians certainly did terrible things, Stalin was a monster but there can be no equivocation that would give the Germans a pass.

I can't possibly say any more about this. Myself and others have made the point as best we could.
Perceive it in your own way.

 

[wayne556517]

Im motivated to do some more Diorama,s now thanks mate...................:salute::
I look forward to your comments.........................^&grin

 

[jazzeum]

My grandfather & grandmother on my fathers side were polish , & when i was little i remember him say " i have no love for the germans but at least they came to fight , the russian's snuck in when we were busy fighting & stabbed poland in the back , in my book that makes them cowards "

Joe

This is a bit of a head scratcher. The Germans and the Russians agreed to divide up Poland. Neither is blameless. Moreover, as bad as what happened to the Polish Jews, non-Jewish Poles suffered as well.

I also see in some of these comments equating what the Russians did with what the Germans did. Without getting into a game of who is more blameworthy, all I know is that without the Red Army and the sacrifices of the Russian people, maybe the war is never won or it takes years and years to do so. That tilts the scale in favor of Russia in my book.

 

[Mitch]

Not surprising a mod decides what I write is allegedly vilifying a poster. last time I looked vilifying meant something different than stating if you are offended by little bits of metal get another hobby. Lets forget that the millions of women and children raped multiple times ''got what they deserved'' Forget that terms ''creepy'' etc are applied with brush strokes to those who choose to collect German figures and then exhibit and display as they see fit for fun on a toy soldier forum.

As you said we all have opinions and I stated mine.
Mitch

We've plowed this ground (do toy soldiers glorify Nazis) before, so claiming that someone has 'lost the right to comment' and are 'in the wrong hobby' is a bit over the top. Plenty of toy soldier collectors aren't comfortable with Nazi figures.

People have opinions. They don't always agree. We can share them without vilifying each other.

 

[Rob]

As is often the case with this young man , excellent post!

It is always the sheer scale of the atrocities that prove a bit difficult to get over ... that and the fact that they were perpetrated by a European government and were therefore a little closer to home for many, many people. Occuring as they did as a central tenet of national policy makes them far more chilling. That they occured not only in the heat of battle but as a 'societal norm' gives them a claim to stand as a special, though not unique case. As I have said in other threads, I collect figures from the Anglo-Zulu Wars and perhaps a Zulu might level those charges against those collectors who glorify the 'Scramble for Africa'.

For me, it is always the gas chambers that make it difficult for me to rationalise it historically. Hardly surprising, I suppose, given that they were the antithesis of rationale, 'civilised' behaviour. I would add, however, that it is a very long bow to draw to make assumptions about someone based on their collecting habits. I suspect that the vast majority of neo-Nazis are in fact not big collectors. Some probably play golf. I do fear, however, the justification that 'everyone' or 'many peoples' have committed atrocities (which is not what my friend PA44 said. He called for a recognition of shared shortcomings so it is not a criticsm of his post). Because on this scale, in a modern context, supported by national policy, it is not true that we are all equal. The Australian treatment of our indigenous people was very, very poor. At times, it was awful. I cannot belittle the enormity of the Holocaust by considereing them as equal. The recognition of evil acts (as opposed to characterising any nation as evil which I cannot support) does not demand that I am a saint before I can speak.

I also recognise that other countries (people have discussed Russia but obviously not just them either) but I have discussed Germany because of the thread's topic.

 

[Jack]

As is often the case with this young man , excellent post!

Like the good Englishman you are, never frightened to march to the sound of the guns!