I've seen the future of toy soldiers and it's called first legion. Or not? (3 Viewers)

[Currahee Chris]

Hi Chris


No problems in the ranks just keeping things fair... Other than that there are some interesting opinions here and lets hope it stays friendly.

Dave

Just working my psyops here sir. Trying to instigate and get you guys going at each other. ^&grin^&grin^&grin

 

[Currahee Chris]

well, thats right in terms of toy soldiers and taste. But not say in terms of historical fact or accuracy or, whether a manufacturer has got things right or wrong. That was my point arguing about my figures are better than yours is a waste of time as there is no right or wrong answer
Mitch

I'm assuming this response was to Jazzeum? I think there are some people here who do argue mine are better than yours and the like. My point was really addressed to the forum as a whole. A lot of people express concern/doubt etc when they look at prices. My point is simply that increased prices can be palpable if the collector doesn't feel the constant burden of buy or die. A lot of Russian figures are produced in runs of 40-50 figures. If one of the more mainstream producers were to announce a limited run of 40-50 figures, there would be all sorts of paranoia (rightly so). Yet, because these figures cost $100 or more each, you can still get them a few years after they are released.

FWIW- I certainly do not consider my collection better than anyone else's- or my brands or whatever, I think that is a bit egoist for anyone to feel that way. I simply think FL has done a marvelous job delivering a better quality figure to the market while exercising some cost control. Their figures personify "Shock and awe" when you see them- not "Shock and Awe s--t I gotta get these pieces before they hit ebay." ^&grin^&grin

STANDS ALONE!!
CC

 

[Mitch]

Chris..

My points were raised at Jazzeum's response to my post. I don't really disagree with what you have posted I was just raising the point that some of the stupider arguments about X versus Y are a waste its much easier to critique positively and negatively where necessary the releases and thats what I always have done and will continue to do.
Mitch

I'm assuming this response was to Jazzeum? I think there are some people here who do argue mine are better than yours and the like. My point was really addressed to the forum as a whole. A lot of people express concern/doubt etc when they look at prices. My point is simply that increased prices can be palpable if the collector doesn't feel the constant burden of buy or die. A lot of Russian figures are produced in runs of 40-50 figures. If one of the more mainstream producers were to announce a limited run of 40-50 figures, there would be all sorts of paranoia (rightly so). Yet, because these figures cost $100 or more each, you can still get them a few years after they are released.

FWIW- I certainly do not consider my collection better than anyone else's- or my brands or whatever, I think that is a bit egoist for anyone to feel that way. I simply think FL has done a marvelous job delivering a better quality figure to the market while exercising some cost control. Their figures personify "Shock and awe" when you see them- not "Shock and Awe s--t I gotta get these pieces before they hit ebay." ^&grin^&grin

STANDS ALONE!!
CC

 

[6th Wisconsin]

I buy lots from FL, K&C, CS, Britains, Conte, TG, Firgarti, John Jenkins. It just depends on what I like. I do think FL figures have their own niche and are more "realistic." I think the most interesting issue you raised is whether the market will trend toward the more "realistic" miniatures such as FL. I would love to see more of that, but I think for the most part the manufacturers should do what they do well - that is why people buy from them. They have their own character. I applaude FL for what it has done; I do love their figures. That said, all of the others have made great strides as well and provide collectors these days with a ton of great products.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Chris..

My points were raised at Jazzeum's response to my post. I don't really disagree with what you have posted I was just raising the point that some of the stupider arguments about X versus Y are a waste its much easier to critique positively and negatively where necessary the releases and thats what I always have done and will continue to do.
Mitch

I agree. I think it is better to point out positive points and errors on models than to argue which is better. The different manufacturers have different standards of historical accuracy, model accuracy, level of detail, pricing and selection. Better is very subjective to each collector. And there are trade-offs. Historical accuracy vs flexibility in scenarios; model detail vs price; model detail vs fragility.

Terry

 

[debrito]

Moderators been denied-deleted by other moderator...we have bad behaviour conducting here, for those who have to keep the order......

 

[jazzeum]

Chris..

My points were raised at Jazzeum's response to my post. I don't really disagree with what you have posted I was just raising the point that some of the stupider arguments about X versus Y are a waste its much easier to critique positively and negatively where necessary the releases and thats what I always have done and will continue to do.
Mitch

Guess I wasn't quick enough at deleting it and did so in the hope of avoiding any controversy.

My post was that the decisions we make about buying something (toy soldiers or otherwise) are subjective.

 

[VIRIATO]

For what it's worth, I think FL is the most exciting thing out there today, nothing has changed my stance on that. Odd thing is, I don't own a single figure of theirs nor do I intend on getting anything anytime soon- simply put, they don't do anything I collect. Still, the quality is there in spades.

I think collectors get preoccupied with price points rather than stepping back and looking at the bigger picture. I collect Russian miniatures. As the price of a figure goes up, the amount of collectors vying for it tends to go down. You simply are not pressured by "Retirements" steering the market. A collector could conveivably spend/set aside $100/month for FL or St. Pete purchases and build up a collection of 10- 20+ figures in a year- what is wrong with that?? Sure, you may pay more individually per figure but over the course of a year, you spend $1,200 versus say $1,800- $2,400 being invested in 2-3 lines from companies that commonly "retire" their figures on a frequent basis.

We are programmed to have to buy something once a month or so- it doesn't have to be that way. You can spend $1k with FL and get approx 18 figures or so. After three short years, you've got a collection of 30-40 museum quality figures. This hobby is a marathon, not a sprint.

This is an excellent post in my view, and I fully agree with you. In fact that is exactly the way I am feeling about collecting right now, and I have also done your math^&grin Room for your collection also comes into play here, not everybody has a museum like Jim Hillestad^&grin. Why buy more just to have to sell it later because you need the room or the money for something else? That said I am guilty of doing just that^&grin... Maybe some of us need to slow our pace down^&grin (hope most manufacturers are not reading this one^&grin).

Paulo

 

[VIRIATO]

I didn't think of this thread as a «my figures are better than yours thread», that would be pointless and probably childish^&grin (on second thoughts I am a big child collecting toy soldiers, maybe it's time to call them miniatures...^&grin).
Neither First Legion or K&C are my favourite miniatures, my favourite ones are Imperial Productions. What I would like to debate is this: in my view at the moment K&C is the undisputed industry leader. Do you think FL might be the leader in the future? We are already seeing others proposing to follow their way. This question is beyond personal taste, it's just supposed to be a debate on what the future might bring. The quality of the figures surely comes into play, but also their marketing, the ranges being done, how much they sell, what will happen in China in the following years, etc... As objective as one can be, like if you were an investor buying shares and not toy soldiers^&grin. No problem to have a little passion though, within the boundaries of respect for everyone:wink2:.


Paulo

 

[Alex]

It's actually a very very interesting thread.

For me, Fl figures are not toy soldiers and are more model figures like kits painted by Pegaso & Andrea.

I'm in fact not interested at all in buying 'toy soldiers'. I don't like glossies at all. I don't like unrealistic figures at all.. I want what I will call 'hyper realism' but with a sense of art... art in the sculpture and art in the painting.. I don't want a figure that was produced using 3d softwares (like clothes on CS figures) and I want a superb paintjob done by a human..

That's what I want and for that I'll pay what it needs to get it.

Also soon I will be able to fulfill one of my wildest dream... Wargame with FL Nap figures........ !!!!!!!! Can you imagine that wargaming with 54mm FL figures !!!

Cheers,

Alex

 

[Gebhard]

Re: DAK002-DAK009 Panzer III's and Infantry Pre-Order

IMO First legion have really shaken up the Hobby :wink2: Love em or hate em I don't think anyone has ever said that they have taken the Hobby in the wrong direction or are presenting collectors with a bad product . Of course their sales model has made a lot of people who usually have their hand in the cookie jar not to happy , but I can live with that . Since joining the forum in July of 2009 I have seen members and at least one former moderator who had no interest whatsoever in First legion have a change of Heart once they have either seen them in person or have taken a chance by buying one . IMO this trend will continue to grow as more and more collectors discover what First Legion have on offer , I have said too them 100's of time just build it they will come . I'm not sure if they will ever be the industry leader , but I really don't care as long as they just keep being First Legion . As long as they stay true to what they are currently doing they will get a portion of my Hobby budget every month or when I have it . IMO at the current prices they are a GREAT value , I hope Matt doesn't see that last one , I like it better when guys say they are too expensive ... Happy collecting Gebhard

 

[Rob]

Re: DAK002-DAK009 Panzer III's and Infantry Pre-Order

IMO First legion have really shaken up the Hobby :wink2: Love em or hate em I don't think anyone has ever said that they have taken the Hobby in the wrong direction or are presenting collectors with a bad product . Of course their sales model has made a lot of people who usually have their hand in the cookie jar not to happy , but I can live with that . Since joining the forum in July of 2009 I have seen members and at least one former moderator who had no interest whatsoever in First legion have a change of Heart once they have either seen them in person or have taken a chance by buying one . IMO this trend will continue to grow as more and more collectors discover what First Legion have on offer , I have said too them 100's of time just build it they will come . I'm not sure if they will ever be the industry leader , but I really don't care as long as they just keep being First Legion . As long as they stay true to what they are currently doing they will get a portion of my Hobby budget every month or when I have it . IMO at the current prices they are a GREAT value , I hope Matt doesn't see that last one , I like it better when guys say they are too expensive ... Happy collecting Gebhard

Excellent post. Here we have a dedicated and enthusiastic collector just saying, whatever you are doing keep doing it!. No digs at anyone else, no grand statements, just a love of the product and the enjoyment of collecting it. Well said.

Rob

 

[jazzeum]

Re: DAK002-DAK009 Panzer III's and Infantry Pre-Order

IMO First legion have really shaken up the Hobby :wink2: Love em or hate em I don't think anyone has ever said that they have taken the Hobby in the wrong direction or are presenting collectors with a bad product . Of course their sales model has made a lot of people who usually have their hand in the cookie jar not to happy , but I can live with that . Since joining the forum in July of 2009 I have seen members and at least one former moderator who had no interest whatsoever in First legion have a change of Heart once they have either seen them in person or have taken a chance by buying one . IMO this trend will continue to grow as more and more collectors discover what First Legion have on offer , I have said too them 100's of time just build it they will come . I'm not sure if they will ever be the industry leader , but I really don't care as long as they just keep being First Legion . As long as they stay true to what they are currently doing they will get a portion of my Hobby budget every month or when I have it . IMO at the current prices they are a GREAT value , I hope Matt doesn't see that last one , I like it better when guys say they are too expensive ... Happy collecting Gebhard

Wow, there kemo sabe, when did I say I had no interest in them (now, don't go check my posts ). I think it was the case of finding the right range. I purchased a bunch of Napoleonics but in all honesty they're not my thing (although I kept two) and purchased a few Stalingrad but again not my thing so someone on this Forum who lives in Maryland got them at a good price. You wouldn't know who I'm speaking about do you, good buddy? :wink2:^&grin

Anyway, I think with the Civil War, I think I found the range I like. I have four right now and am planning on purchasing at least four on Sunday from George Guerriero at the NJ show. As I've said before, and with no disrespect intended for any other manufacturer of Civil War soldiers, these are the best Civil War soldiers there are.

 

[VIRIATO]

Re: DAK002-DAK009 Panzer III's and Infantry Pre-Order

Wow, there kemo sabe, when did I say I had no interest in them (now, don't go check my posts ). I think it was the case of finding the right range. I purchased a bunch of Napoleonics but in all honesty they're not my thing (although I kept two) and purchased a few Stalingrad but again not my thing so someone on this Forum who lives in Maryland got them at a good price. You wouldn't know who I'm speaking about do you, good buddy? :wink2:^&grin

Anyway, I think with the Civil War, I think I found the range I like. I have four right now and am planning on purchasing at least four on Sunday from George Guerriero at the NJ show. As I've said before, and with no disrespect intended for any other manufacturer of Civil War soldiers, these are the best Civil War soldiers there are.

Brad, please post their photos when you can, this is one of the FL ranges I am pondering for the future and of course many others would enjoy your great photos.

Cheers,
Paulo

 

[Spitfrnd]

.... I simply think FL has done a marvelous job delivering a better quality figure to the market while exercising some cost control. Their figures personify "Shock and awe" when you see them- not "Shock and Awe s--t I gotta get these pieces before they hit ebay." ^&grin^&grin

STANDS ALONE!!
CC

Great point Chris. I frankly have no idea what the future of toy soldiers is or whether or not FL figures are even toy soldiers. I do know that their combination of proportionality, realism, detail in sculpting and painting, variety in action and poses and price appeals to me over anything else available of this "type" and "scale". Some others may approach or, in a few cases, meet or exceed one or two of these qualities for a particular release but no one else delivers it all. So whatever they are, I like them the way they are. The ONLY reason I care if others feel the same is because they seem like very nice folks and I want them to continue to be able to deliver their fine products.

FWIW, I don't think the price part of the car analogy is apt. Porsches cost relatively more over most Fords or GMs than FL does over the other bunch noted. Moreover, with a car we are seldom looking to buy more than one and the difference in price for your purchase could very well be double your budget for transportation. With these figures, it is simply whether you would rather have 1 figure or 1.5 - 1.75 figures for the same price. That is a much different choice unless your budget is for one of these figures per year. Perhaps a better price analogy might be Starbucks and Dunkin Donuts or Blu-ray versus DVD. That said, price does matter and since I never thought of considering collecting AeroArt at that price per figure, no doubt there are limits for everyone.

Time stands still for no one and other manufacturers have and will continue to improve. I do agree though that for the most part, the more established ones have carved out their niches and will likely pursue what has worked for them. For its part, FL has delivered a product that is as good in most, if not all, material respects as the higher price spread at a price that is not much higher than the lower price spread. Perhaps others will attempt to do the same but until they actually deliver a competiting product at a competitive price in my areas of interest, FL will be getting most of what I spend for this hobby.^&cool

As to closing the thread down, if we all continue to act like adults, I seriously don't see why that would be necessary?:wink2:

 

[Currahee Chris]

What I would like to debate is this: in my view at the moment K&C is the undisputed industry leader. Do you think FL might be the leader in the future?

No, I really do not. I believe they have carved out a niche market for themselves that works. I think in order to be the market leader, you have to produce quantity with a small sacrifice in quality. I do not see the headsuits at FL EVER compromising their quality- that would kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

I think they serve the "conniseur" market by offering figures that were previously only available from the Russian manufacturers at prices that satisfy the more conservative collector.

I only wish they'd stop putzing around with the Napoleonics and give me some ROMANS!! :tongue:

Or modern US Army- I cannot imagine how flippin sweet an M1A2 Abrams would look at FL quality. I would sacrifice one years defense budget to own that bad boy!!

 

[marco55]

I think FL's figures are fantastic but like others they don't have a range I'm interested in collecting.I'm mostly finishing my figure kits right now but if Matt does some frontiersmen or indians for his AWI that fit into the FIW timeline I will get some of those.
Mark

 

[VIRIATO]

No, I really do not. I believe they have carved out a niche market for themselves that works. I think in order to be the market leader, you have to produce quantity with a small sacrifice in quality. I do not see the headsuits at FL EVER compromising their quality- that would kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

I think they serve the "conniseur" market by offering figures that were previously only available from the Russian manufacturers at prices that satisfy the more conservative collector.

This is a good point. I would bet though that the simple fact of watching the sheer quality of the FL figures is and will keep spurning others into action. I notice increasing efforts concerning quality (both with sculpting and painting) from others like Britains and K&C. The standard is changing (and so are prices:redface2:.

Paulo

 

[Mitch]

Do you really believe the increase in standards you state are down solely to FL?? I think manufacturers have come into the market like CS, figarti, HB, TG etc and all have made each other raise their game.

I think that having a number of makers benefits everyone has FL really made manufacturers change? I am not really so sure I have not seen many try to emulate their particular style. obviously, they will have had an impact but, I don't believe anymore than any other. I would venture that each manufacturer is doing their own thing and not really too worried about the others as much as say collectors make out.

I have mentioned it before but, IMO the real shakers in this hobby were HB I saw a big change in detail etc after they brought out their Panthers and, I think everyone was trying to attain that level in their own manner.

Who knows really what the future is I would think it will pretty much stay similar to what it is now as all have carved out their own little market. The real change to the future is what happens if Andy hangs up his toy soldier shoes??
Mitch

 

[Spitfrnd]

No, I really do not. I believe they have carved out a niche market for themselves that works. I think in order to be the market leader, you have to produce quantity with a small sacrifice in quality. I do not see the headsuits at FL EVER compromising their quality- that would kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

I think they serve the "conniseur" market by offering figures that were previously only available from the Russian manufacturers at prices that satisfy the more conservative collector.

I only wish they'd stop putzing around with the Napoleonics and give me some ROMANS!! :tongue:

Or modern US Army- I cannot imagine how flippin sweet an M1A2 Abrams would look at FL quality. I would sacrifice one years defense budget to own that bad boy!!

I agree with you again Chris. They are a different kettle of fish. That said you'd best lay off my Naps mate; they are free to add the Romans without disturbing the mother line.:wink2:^&grin