Life Guards - 1837 (1 Viewer)

[Go for Broke]

You know your music. "Johnny be good." ^&cool

 

[Martin Tabony]

If you want to make an addition, trumpeters wore the cuirass in 1837, with a red crest.

Martin

 

[johnnybach]

If you want to make an addition, trumpeters wore the cuirass in 1837, with a red crest.

Martin

Funnily enough Martin - I had been thinking of that possibility - and maybe adding an extra figure for each of the two eras depicted (1837 & 1897). Snag is - I haven't been able to find an illustration (yet) for such a figure from 1837. Any chance that you have one???

I thought that I would go for the twelve figures at first ( I will have ten available - at the moment including the two Officer types on Prancing horses -) - but am pretty sure I'll get to at least twelve, by the time I'm ready to begin. Then, I'll keep looking until I find the extra two I'll require for the trumpeters - as add-ons later.

I frequently do begin making up a smallish set - and then add on extras later on - so this could just be another one like that.

As you probably know - both eras were depicted originally by Britains - using the same basic casting - but just changed the head to the Roman type helmet for the 1837 contingent - and then painted them differently to suit. This means that the old Royal Horse Guard figure is also available to adapt too - so I hope they won't be too difficult to source.

jb

 

[johnnybach]

If you want to make an addition, trumpeters wore the cuirass in 1837, with a red crest.

Martin

Re-reading your description - it sounds as if I may possibly already have something that looks like it.




This is one that I found on the Internet - of a Corporal ( or would that be Lance Segeant??) "Harry Pointer", around that time. Am I right in assuming the trumpeter would look almost the same - but with the crest on his helmet in red??? jb

 

[Martin Tabony]

I'll dig out some pictures but that's the basic uniform. Interesting the britains would use the same casting, as you can see there was no tunic in 1837, although the boots are the 1812 pattern that are still worn.
The rank of "Sergeant" has never been used by The Life Guards

Martin

 

[johnnybach]

I'll dig out some pictures but that's the basic uniform. Interesting the britains would use the same casting, as you can see there was no tunic in 1837, although the boots are the 1812 pattern that are still worn.
The rank of "Sergeant" has never been used by The Life Guards

Martin

Yes - if one look closely at the 1837 figure - you can see how the painters at Britains simply continued painting the white trousers right up to the cuirass lower edge - and over the base of the tunic. I think I'll try and smooth that area down a little by filing - to give a slightly better finish. Probably much cheaper to do it that way - than have a new figure sculpted and cast.

Seem to recall now, that the word "Serjeant" originally had something to do with servant - and the Life Guards didn't want that connotation attached to that rank?? No stripes worn in that dress - just different arrangements of cords at the right shoulder, I believe. Just another of the strange oddities and traditions found in some units of the British Army.

Anyhow - you've helped me make up my mind Martin - and I'll be having two trumpeters in my set, for each of the dates portrayed - whatever size of set that I eventually end up with. I'll be giving both trumpeters a "Grey" horse - and having looked at several pre-war sets now from Britains - I see that in lots of the early ones - the 1897 figure of a trumpeter usually wears the cuirass too - with maybe a whiter horse than most greys.

Should be fun - Cheers Martin, thanks for your thoughts and the idea. jb

 

[nmrocks]

So John am I safe to assume that British cavalry specialized horse coloring to different functions with the unit as other countries did/do?
Ray

 

[johnnybach]

So John am I safe to assume that British cavalry specialized horse coloring to different functions with the unit as other countries did/do?
Ray

It was customary for the person who gave the trumpet signals to the others (trumpeter in Cavalry Units) - to be quickly identifiable to the Officers - who gave the commands - such as Charge - and maybe more importantly - Re-call. So, in this instance - the crest on the trumpeter's helmet was a different colour to the rest (red - instead of black) - and the use of a Grey/white horse - instead of the Black horses used by the the rest of the Life-Guards, made him quickly identifiable.

I think that prior to that - a drum was used, mounted on a horse - but it was soon realised, that a trumpet call carried further - and was more useful when Cavalry almost inevitably became scattered over a battlefield.

In other units - buglers/trumpeters wore reversed colours ( e.g red jackets with [say] yellow facings - became reversed for the trumpeter/bugler - yellow jacket with red facings) - for the same reason.

So yes Ray, colours of horses were important in Cavalry units.

Also - some units just preferred a certain "look" - such as "The Bays" - who all rode bay coloured horses - but that was just to look smarter, rather than a functional purpose. There was also a conscious effort made by The Royal Horse Artillery - to match up colours of horses within a team of six horses - for similar reasons - they just looked smarter.

Maybe a former member of the Life Guards might care to add in any further detail??? jb

 

[johnnybach]

Just thought that I would add in a couple of interesting pics that I found on the Internet - which will help me to get a good result when I eventual get to paint the Romanesque style helmet of the for the "1837" members of my group of Life Guards.

Note that these two are NOT Life Guards, but members of the Royal Horse Guards ( though also part of the two regiments of the Household Cavalry). The helmet, however, is in a similar style as that used at that time by the Life-Guards - and that's what I'm really interested in - and these two different views will help enormously.

I might add, ( as I've not really mentioned it), that the two dates chosen by Britains, when they originally portrayed these figures, were intended to celebrate the Diamond Jubilee of (1837-1897) Queen Victoria, and that was the real purpose of this set.

The helmet was worn before 1837 - and other details of the uniforms worn did change at different dates too. Note also, that these RHG figures pictured are in a different form of dress to that shown in Britains LG set - as they have tails to their jackets - and are not wearing the long over-boots. As previously mentioned - this is unimportant for my purpose - as it's the helmets I'm primarily interested in.

 

[johnnybach]

Below is another image that I've "collected" from an Internet source. This one is a detail from a print of a drawing made by a Victorian artist, H Marten, titled "presenting the Colours to the 93rdHighlanders, Oct 7th, 1834". This shows nicely, some of the Mounted Life Guards present, wearing the Roman style helmet on that particular date.

 

[johnnybach]

One last image - which again shows another version of the helmet. This time it's of a 1st Royal Dragoon Officer c.1839. This unit was one of the 3 original Regiments of the Household Cavalry at that time. These eventually amalgamated with the RHG - surprisingly recently in 1969, to form today's Blues & Royals.

 

[Martin Tabony]

I think you're a bit mix up with your Household Cavalry history Johnny. The last picture is a member of the Royal Dragoons but they were never part of the Household Cavalry ?(note the line pattern black leather skull to the helmet). They were amalgamated with the Royal Horse Guards in 1969. The new regiment is called Blues and Royals. "The Blues" was the nick name of the Royal Horse Guards(due to their blue coats). The "Royals" was the nick name of the Ist Royal Dragoons. In fact the Royal Horse Guards, although they carried out the same duties as the Household Cavalry, did not actually become part of the Household Cavalry until 1830. At this time the three regiments of Household Cavalry were, First Life Guards, Second Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards.

The two regiments of Life Guards were until 1788 called Horse Guards, hence Horse Guards Parade.

Cavalry have always used trumpets for signal calls. It was regiments of dragoons that used drums as they were originally mounted infantry not cavalry, and so were on a lower "pay scale". As a matter of interest when the government was trying to save money on defence (nothing new there!) they wanted to convert all of the regiments of "horse" (cavalry) into dragoons. They obviously didn't want to be demoted into an infantry role, so to appease them Horse Guards (MOD) called them "Dragoon Guards" but on the lower pay!

Martin

 

[johnnybach]

I think you're a bit mix up with your Household Cavalry history Johnny. The last picture is a member of the Royal Dragoons but they were never part of the Household Cavalry ?(note the line pattern black leather skull to the helmet). They were amalgamated with the Royal Horse Guards in 1969. The new regiment is called Blues and Royals. "The Blues" was the nick name of the Royal Horse Guards(due to their blue coats). The "Royals" was the nick name of the Ist Royal Dragoons. In fact the Royal Horse Guards, although they carried out the same duties as the Household Cavalry, did not actually become part of the Household Cavalry until 1830. At this time the three regiments of Household Cavalry were, First Life Guards, Second Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards.

The two regiments of Life Guards were until 1788 called Horse Guards, hence Horse Guards Parade.

Cavalry have always used trumpets for signal calls. It was regiments of dragoons that used drums as they were originally mounted infantry not cavalry, and so were on a lower "pay scale". As a matter of interest when the government was trying to save money on defence (nothing new there!) they wanted to convert all of the regiments of "horse" (cavalry) into dragoons. They obviously didn't want to be demoted into an infantry role, so to appease them Horse Guards (MOD) called them "Dragoon Guards" but on the lower pay!

Martin

I'm not surprised Martin! I'm always muddling things up like that. Thanks for the extra ( and correct) information . I obviously got my Regiments a bit mixed up. I was hoping you might help clear up some details. Nice helmet though.

Of more concern to me - is that I can't find a picture anywhere, of a Life Guard Trumpeter, wearing the Roman style helmet. From my reading so far, it seems that this style of helmet was worn between 1832 and 1842 (so Britains choice of date at 1837 was correct). Prior to 1832, it seems a fur cap was worn - and I have a pic of a Trumpeter on a Grey wearing one, which is dated as 1828. (see below).

The Albert style helmet came in at around 1842 - and again I have a pic of a trumpeter wearing one (again below) - BUT I haven't found one yet between those dates wearing the Roman helmet with a red crest. This is makig me doubt that they wore one - as surely a picture would exist - as I have loads of other examples of Life Guards dressed in the same way as the Britains figures - with the Roman style helmet. I also have plenty of pics of Trumpeters in the ornate State Dress - but none in dress worn in the field.

Here's the one by E. Hull dated 1828, ( Note the background figures wearing the Roman style helmet!)



and this is the one (undated) with the later helmet. Note the unrealistic "rocking horse" poses of some Troopers in the background - so characteristic of some of Britains earlier figures. Note also the short tunic being worn and Black sheepskin he's sitting on - in contrast to the white ones of Troopers in background.



and finally - here's the one I found in State Dress - note the background figures - who appear to be wearing the Roman style helmet - so would appear to be contemporary with the date (1837)?



Any ideas?? jb

 

[Martin Tabony]

Johnny, the bearskin was worn at the same time as the crested helmet, which I believe (off the top of my head) came in to use in 1817.
I'm going to dig through what I have right now.

Martin

 

[johnnybach]

Johnny, the bearskin was worn at the same time as the crested helmet, which I believe (off the top of my head) came in to use in 1817.
I'm going to dig through what I have right now.

Martin

Hi again Martin - I too have read (somewhere) that the Bearskin and the helmet were worn at around the same time. Makes me think, perhaps, that the Trumpeter didn't wear a crested helme at all - but maybe stuck with the bearskin until the Albert style helmet came in??????

Now THAT would look VERY different - if he was added to the Britains group, in set 72. The other "Albert" helmet would be no problem at all - for the 1897 contingent, as that would be just an arm swap for a normal helmeted figure - and maybe a bit of work on the shoulders with a bit of Milliput.

However, just one pic of a Roman style Helmeted Trumpeter would be just great, so thanks for persevering.

However, if I can't confirm the proposed figure with a pic....................it's either the bearskin Trumpeter figure - or no trumpeter figure at all for the 1837 date. jb

 

[Martin Tabony]

The trumpeter definitely wore the helmet. The bearskin was reserved for special parades, the helmet was every day use (e.g. "Queen's Life Guard) I know I have pictures but it will take a very long time to go through everything. In the mean time a description. The basic uniform was that of a trooper, including plates. The helmet had a red plume. The collar and cufs were blue but completely covered in gold lace, except for a thin zig-zag blue "light". Th saddlery was the same as the troopers but on a grey horse. Note a "white" horse is still called a grey.

One more thing may interest you. The fourth troop of Horse Guards was also the "Scots" troop. The part of Westminster Palace where they stabled their horses, was and still is, called "Scotland Yard".

Martin

 

[johnnybach]

The trumpeter definitely wore the helmet. The bearskin was reserved for special parades, the helmet was every day use (e.g. "Queen's Life Guard) I know I have pictures but it will take a very long time to go through everything. In the mean time a description. The basic uniform was that of a trooper, including plates. The helmet had a red plume. The collar and cufs were blue but completely covered in gold lace, except for a thin zig-zag blue "light". Th saddlery was the same as the troopers but on a grey horse. Note a "white" horse is still called a grey.

One more thing may interest you. The fourth troop of Horse Guards was also the "Scots" troop. The part of Westminster Palace where they stabled their horses, was and still is, called "Scotland Yard".

Martin

Cheers Martin - and thanks for taking the time to look it all up.

However, I've had a bit of a result myself. I've been snooping around the National Army Museum ( on the Internet, of course), and came up with a title of a painting that they hold. It's called:

"Life Guard Blowing his trumpet" by Unknown Artist - Oil on Board c.1830 ( here's the link; %20mounted%20figures/Life%20Guards%201837%20from%20set%2072/LG%20Blowing%20his%20trumpet%20-%20by%20unknown%20artist.%20c.1830%20Nat.%20Army%20Museum_zpsm9047yek.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

So............more in hope than anything - I looked it up - and - see below (Note: it's okay to reproduce it for study purposes - as long as credit is given to The National Army Museum.) - which I've just done - with MANY thanks.



And there he is - helmet and all!{sm4} There are a few things to note. Firstly, the painting has deteriorated a bit - so not perfect. The plume on his helmet is shown as black - and not red, and he's not "plated". BUT we don't know who the original artist was - so he could have been using uniform bits and pieces later on - to get details - and just got it wrong. Also, the horse is an unusual shade for a grey; so.......a bit more Artistic licence.

On the positive side - it does prove the helmet was worn - with other details like black sheepskin saddle cover - banner to trumpet etc.

Result - I think I have enough here, to make up a Trumpeter for both eras.

MANY thanks for your help and patience this far. When I get back to the UK - I'll be making a start with this set, from the bits and pieces (literally) that I have so far. Maybe I'll even start looking for some farriers next?????^&grin

Scotland Yard eh? - well - I've been a bit of a detective too - for this thread - maybe I'll make 'em up as 2nd LG?

Cheers - jb:salute::

 

[Martin Tabony]

The farrier, I've got a picture from 1830 showing him wearing the usual blue coat, but his head gear is a bell topped shako covered in fur!
That picture is very interesting. A few points, The helmet was adopted in 1817 but the plates were not until 1822. The Household Cavalry didn't ride blacks until 1830. So there could be lots of mistakes in that painting or it could have been painted during a transitional uniform period. We've all been there!

Martin

 

[trooper]

Johnny, attached pics might help. The Stadden drawing is from a Drahonnet painting in "Miitary paintings in the Royal collection" which also has similar pic of the 2nd Life Guards. Trooper

 

[johnnybach]

Johnny, attached pics might help. The Stadden drawing is from a Drahonnet painting in "Miitary paintings in the Royal collection" which also has similar pic of the 2nd Life Guards. Trooper

Hi Trooper - yes, that does help. It's further evidence that such helmets were being worn by HC Trumpeters - so I now feel comfortable with making one up for an "extended" version of Britains set 72. The Stadden drawing is just the job!

Would have been nice to find a full colour version with a red crest - but I have been searching the net for days - and can't seem to find one anywhere.

I've also seen a pic of a dismounted Farrier with a covered bell-top shako Martin - but don't think I'll pursue that line (yet). Not a very glamorous type!{sm2}

Thanks both for your help, once again. Will be a while before I can begin - but nice to know that (for once), I've got things sorted before beginning - though I'm still sourcing a couple more Britains figures to repair at the moment.

Cheers - jb