Spitfrnd
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YES INDEED my lord Colonel. Sorry for the side bars but they were interesting.
Mistakes In Movies Not Noticed (2 Viewers)
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The Lt.
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Spitfrnd
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OzDigger
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Hi Gary, that was the ONLY point I have been trying to make, that it was a combined stuff-up and the operation would only have had a high chance of success earlier when the Germans were in full retreat. Montgomery wanted it to be an earlier drop with only British troops. My understanding is that Eisenhower cut back the British involvement and insisted the US 82nd and 101st be involved, and this and other factors (mainly logistic) caused the delay. "The Lonely Leader: Monty 1944-1945" by Alistair Horne provides another viewpoint to Market-Garden etc and from memory I got some of the info from it.
General comments
The movie 'A Bridge Too Far' is often taken as gospel because it was linked with the excellent book of the same name. However the movie does depart from the book in a number of important areas. For example, XXX Corps did not stop for a cuppa, they were held up by the SS Kampfgruppe which held the bridge at Nijmegen where XXX Corps were under heavy tank and artillery fire.
The movie also depicts British officers as pompous idiots more concerned with their dinner jackets and golf-clubs than waging a serious war. Not to mention the others on a fox hunt or something and more worried about their next cup of tea.
Does this qualify as being 'anti-British' or is it just Hollywood doing their usual thing. I don't know, but I reckon it was best left out of the movie. And of course the movie also had the fictional cigar chomping, can-do, American officer played by Elliot Gould who was apparently the only person capable of organising those 'Limeys' with their Bailey Bridges etc.
I can overlook the numerous mistakes/errors in the movie such as the TV aerials on the roofs in Arnhem and even the Leopard tanks there, but imo the characterisations do get out of hand in the movie.
OzDigger
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I guess we are both getting a bit confused with Tom Hank's characters concern with what didn't make it to shore in his sector of Omaha beach.
Btw, I have the four (4) Osprey Campaign booklets covering D-Day. 'D-Day 1944 (1)' was written by Zaloga and is all about Omaha, and I guess the article you mentioned was adapted from this book. The four booklets in the series covering all the beaches make good reading, but they are a bit pricey for their size imo.
OzDigger
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The 'original' plan was British, but Ike did modify it. In effect the operation was launched to late and with to little secrecy, the Germans having the entire allied plans in their hands before most of the operation was instigated.
OzDigger
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The officer is wearing an Australian uniform, he just has a more 'cultured' accent that some take as being British. The relevant charge at The Nek was basically an Australian error. However the campaign was British in concept being championed by Churchill, and it may well have been a success if carried out earlier and with greater secrecy - much like 'Market-Garden' in that respect.
trooper
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Mistakes in movies mainly fall in to one of several categories. Misrepresentation of history which is irritating but can be overlooked if it is just regarded as a good action flick. Sloppy research, for which there is no excuse and having to substitute modern hardwear as originals not available. Errol Flynn's Charge of the Light Brigade is a classic example of the first, and Tony Richardson's version of the same is a prime example of the second. The mistakes in Richardson's film are made even worse as he was given first class accurate information by the Historical Research Unit but rejected it as he liked the cherrycoloured overalls of the 11th Hussars and insisted on the whole brigade wearing them. As for the last, let's face it there are not too many Tiger tanks, early marks of Spitfires or Flower class corvettes about, so substitution is understandable. There are also straightforward booboos, I well recall one sword and sandals episode (Ican't recall which film) where a Roman legionary is wearing a wrist watch! Wouldn't have been quite so bad if it had been a sun dial. And the one thing that is guaranteed to set every British ex serviceman screamimg and throwing things at the TV, British troops saluting bareheaded! (Only one British regiment has this custom, the Blues and Royals)
The Australians have the best record for accuracy, Breaker Morant, The Lighthorsemen and the miniseries Anzacs are shining examples of accurate uniforms and equipment in addition to being thoroughly good entertainment.
The Australians have the best record for accuracy, Breaker Morant, The Lighthorsemen and the miniseries Anzacs are shining examples of accurate uniforms and equipment in addition to being thoroughly good entertainment.
Harrytheheid
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Well G'Day, fellow Treefroggers. 
Being unable to peruse Certain Members postings due to them being forced onto my IGNORE list by the splendid proprieters of this forum has its advantages. No doubt about that one. Reading other posts in this thread indicate that it has taken off on somewhat of a tangent - something about anti-British bias in that wonderful movie "A Bridge Too Far".
In the interests of fair play, I offer the following for the record, your opinions, viewpoints and possible futher gentle discussion;
A few random extracts from "A Bridge Too Far" - Cornelius Ryan.
Wordsworth Military Library 1999 Edition.
Page 129 QUOTE
"Lieutenant-Colonel John Frost, 31, who was to lead the battalion assigned to capture the Arnhem bridge, packed his copper fox hunting horn with the rest of his battle gear….
….During training, Frost had used the horn to rally his men. He would do so on this operation
Page 143 QUOTE
Co-pilot Sergeant Bill Oakes, struggling to hold his Horsa glider steady in the air, looked back to see how his passengers were fairing. To his horror, three troopers were “calmly sitting on the floor brewing up a mess tin of tea over a small cooker. Five others were standing around with their mugs waiting to be served.”….
….”We’re just having a little brew up,” one of the troopers told him soothingly. Oakes hurried back to the cockpit and reported the matter to the pilot, Staff Sergeant Bert Watkins. The pilot smiled. “Tell ‘em not to forget us when the tea’s ready,” he said. Oakes sank into his seat and buried his head in his hands.
Page 167 QUOTE
Dazed after a hard fall, Lieutenant Robin Vlasto lay still for a few moments, trying to orientate himself….
….As he struggled to get out of his harness, he heard a weird sound. Looking around, he saw Lieutenant-Colonel John Frost, the Second battalion’s commander, walking past, blowing his copper hunting horn.
Frost was also observed by Private James W. Sims. Sims had already gone through quite a day even before he landed. Having always flown with the RAF – whose attitude, Sims recalls, was: “Don’t worry, lads, whatever it’s like, we’ll get you through” – Sims received quite a shock on seeing his American pilot. “He was a lieutenant-colonel with one of those soft hats. His flying jacket was hanging open and he was smoking a big cigar. Our lieutenant saluted him quite sharply and asked if the men should move up to the front of the plane on take-off.” The American grinned. “Why, hell no, lieutenant,” Sims remembers him saying. “I’ll get this g*dd*m crate off the ground if I have to drag it’s a*se halfway down the runway.” Sims officer was too startled to speak. Now, although he was fond of his colonel, Sims, watching Frost go by, had reached the limit of his patience. Surrounded by his equipment, he sat on the ground and muttered, “There goes old Johnny Frost, a .45 in one hand and that bloody horn in the other.”
Page 354 - 355 QUOTE
Colonel Tucker, the 504th Regimental Commander was fuming at the British delay….
….As he later wrote, “We had killed ourselves crossing the Waal to grab the North end of the bridge. We just stood there, seething, as the British settled in for the night, failing to take advantage of the situation. We couldn’t understand it. It simply wasn’t the way we did things in the American army – especially if it had been our guys hanging by their fingernails 11 miles away. We’d have been going, rolling without stop. That’s what Georgie Patton would have done, whether it was daylight or dark.”
Lieutenant A. D. Demetras overheard Tucker arguing with a major from the Guards Armoured Division. “I think a most incredible decision was being made right there on the spot,” he recalls. From inside a small bungalow being used as a command post, Demetras heard Tucker say angrily, “Your boys are hurting up there at Arnhem, You’d better go. It’s only 11 miles.” The major “told the colonel that British armour could not proceed until infantry came up,” Demetras recalls. “They were fighting the war by the book,” Colonel Tucker said. “They had harboured for the night. As usual, they stopped for tea.”
Page 397 QUOTE
Sergeant-Major Harry Callaghan, who had added extra touches to his uniform – he had found a tall black hat in a hearse and wore it everywhere, explained to the men that he had been named “The Airborne representative to Hitler’s funeral.”
As stated at the beginning, these are a few quite random passages which clearly illustrate that although the ABTF movie may have strayed slightly from Ryan’s book in details, the ESSENCE of characters and events during Market Garden stuck closely to real life. Given that certain scenes were presented with some dramatic license – it was a movie, after all, not a documentary, then did these scenes not accurately reflect the very real drama as events during Operation MG unfolded?
I believe there will be no futher need for my contributions to this particular thread, therefore I rest my case M’Lud.
Best Regards
H
Being unable to peruse Certain Members postings due to them being forced onto my IGNORE list by the splendid proprieters of this forum has its advantages. No doubt about that one. Reading other posts in this thread indicate that it has taken off on somewhat of a tangent - something about anti-British bias in that wonderful movie "A Bridge Too Far"
. In the interests of fair play, I offer the following for the record, your opinions, viewpoints and possible futher gentle discussion;
A few random extracts from "A Bridge Too Far" - Cornelius Ryan.
Wordsworth Military Library 1999 Edition.
Page 129 QUOTE
"Lieutenant-Colonel John Frost, 31, who was to lead the battalion assigned to capture the Arnhem bridge, packed his copper fox hunting horn with the rest of his battle gear….
….During training, Frost had used the horn to rally his men. He would do so on this operation
Page 143 QUOTE
Co-pilot Sergeant Bill Oakes, struggling to hold his Horsa glider steady in the air, looked back to see how his passengers were fairing. To his horror, three troopers were “calmly sitting on the floor brewing up a mess tin of tea over a small cooker. Five others were standing around with their mugs waiting to be served.”….
….”We’re just having a little brew up,” one of the troopers told him soothingly. Oakes hurried back to the cockpit and reported the matter to the pilot, Staff Sergeant Bert Watkins. The pilot smiled. “Tell ‘em not to forget us when the tea’s ready,” he said. Oakes sank into his seat and buried his head in his hands.
Page 167 QUOTE
Dazed after a hard fall, Lieutenant Robin Vlasto lay still for a few moments, trying to orientate himself….
….As he struggled to get out of his harness, he heard a weird sound. Looking around, he saw Lieutenant-Colonel John Frost, the Second battalion’s commander, walking past, blowing his copper hunting horn.
Frost was also observed by Private James W. Sims. Sims had already gone through quite a day even before he landed. Having always flown with the RAF – whose attitude, Sims recalls, was: “Don’t worry, lads, whatever it’s like, we’ll get you through” – Sims received quite a shock on seeing his American pilot. “He was a lieutenant-colonel with one of those soft hats. His flying jacket was hanging open and he was smoking a big cigar. Our lieutenant saluted him quite sharply and asked if the men should move up to the front of the plane on take-off.” The American grinned. “Why, hell no, lieutenant,” Sims remembers him saying. “I’ll get this g*dd*m crate off the ground if I have to drag it’s a*se halfway down the runway.” Sims officer was too startled to speak. Now, although he was fond of his colonel, Sims, watching Frost go by, had reached the limit of his patience. Surrounded by his equipment, he sat on the ground and muttered, “There goes old Johnny Frost, a .45 in one hand and that bloody horn in the other.”
Page 354 - 355 QUOTE
Colonel Tucker, the 504th Regimental Commander was fuming at the British delay….
….As he later wrote, “We had killed ourselves crossing the Waal to grab the North end of the bridge. We just stood there, seething, as the British settled in for the night, failing to take advantage of the situation. We couldn’t understand it. It simply wasn’t the way we did things in the American army – especially if it had been our guys hanging by their fingernails 11 miles away. We’d have been going, rolling without stop. That’s what Georgie Patton would have done, whether it was daylight or dark.”
Lieutenant A. D. Demetras overheard Tucker arguing with a major from the Guards Armoured Division. “I think a most incredible decision was being made right there on the spot,” he recalls. From inside a small bungalow being used as a command post, Demetras heard Tucker say angrily, “Your boys are hurting up there at Arnhem, You’d better go. It’s only 11 miles.” The major “told the colonel that British armour could not proceed until infantry came up,” Demetras recalls. “They were fighting the war by the book,” Colonel Tucker said. “They had harboured for the night. As usual, they stopped for tea.”
Page 397 QUOTE
Sergeant-Major Harry Callaghan, who had added extra touches to his uniform – he had found a tall black hat in a hearse and wore it everywhere, explained to the men that he had been named “The Airborne representative to Hitler’s funeral.”
As stated at the beginning, these are a few quite random passages which clearly illustrate that although the ABTF movie may have strayed slightly from Ryan’s book in details, the ESSENCE of characters and events during Market Garden stuck closely to real life. Given that certain scenes were presented with some dramatic license – it was a movie, after all, not a documentary, then did these scenes not accurately reflect the very real drama as events during Operation MG unfolded?
I believe there will be no futher need for my contributions to this particular thread, therefore I rest my case M’Lud.
Best Regards
H
Last edited by a moderator:
Rob
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Hey Rob take a chill pill Saturday is coming and Hell! just buy British troops and AV's and you'll feel a whole lot better
The Brits have always been villians in Yankee films be they war-films or Disney cartoons- tends to suit our foppish accents better
Not to be taken too seriously though mate.
Reb
You are right of course mate,i'm chilled again now!
King & Country
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Hi Guys,
For as long as they have been making movies especially war movies the film-makers have played fast and loose with historical accuracy and military detail.
Occasionally I can live with it but more often than not it drives me stark, staring bonkers. Here’s a few of my favourite “movie-howlers”. In no particular order…
1. Haircuts…
I’m always amazed that some film directors go to great lengths to get the costumes… uniforms… weapons… and even equipment correct and then… let their actors wander all over the screen with non regulation… non period hairstyles!!!
2. Tanks…
This used to be a big “bugbear” of mine especially back in the sixties seeing all those M41’s and M47’s masquerading as Panthers and King Tigers in movies like “Battle of the Bulge” and “Combat” on TV. The other favourite was using American M3 Half Tracks as German Hanomags in almost every war film until “Saving Pvt. Ryan”.
Special good “mentions-in-dispatches” should go to the following for at least trying to get it right with their German “mockups”.
a) “Night of the Generals”—good looking Tigers… I think they were originally T34’s
b) “Is Paris Burning”… M24 Chaffees mocked up to look like mini Panthers. Actually I saw one of these at the French. Tank Museum at Saumur with Fred of Toy Soldiers Paris a couple of years ago. A bit wee but not bad from a distance.
c) “Kelly’s Heroes”… those 3 great looking Tigers… don’t know what they were originally… and of course lots of real Shermans.
d) “Saving Pvt. Ryan” and “Band of Brothers”… superb mockups, reproductions and the real thing as well!
3. Jeeps...
Lots of movies have used post-war versions with the full windscreen instead of the WW2 split version, “MacArthur”… “Patton”… and lots of TV movies to name but a few.
No excuse there’s still plenty of the genuine ones around and the WW2 looking, postwar Hotchkis French versions.
4. Finally… Uniforms…
Again up until a few years ago Germans were almost always dressed and “kitted-out” in standard early-war 1940 style uniforms. Even if the action took place late war you rarely saw camouflage smocks or even the ankle boots which replaced the jackboot as typical mid-late war military footwear.
Another thing to look out for is “studio-made” uniforms as opposed to genuine military surplus. Check out John Wayne’s get up in “The Longest Day”. In a lot of old Hollywood movies and some British ones you’ll also see the big coal-skuttle style WW1 German steel helmets on WW2 soldiers.
Obviously I could go on and on but you get the general picture. Actually sometimes I even get more surprised when they get it right!!!
Anyway I still love my war movies… mistakes, bloomers, bloopers and all…
Best wishes and happy watching!
Andy C.
P.S. It never bothers me to see M24 Chaffees pretending to be Shermans… at least they’re WW2 tanks!
For as long as they have been making movies especially war movies the film-makers have played fast and loose with historical accuracy and military detail.
Occasionally I can live with it but more often than not it drives me stark, staring bonkers. Here’s a few of my favourite “movie-howlers”. In no particular order…
1. Haircuts…
I’m always amazed that some film directors go to great lengths to get the costumes… uniforms… weapons… and even equipment correct and then… let their actors wander all over the screen with non regulation… non period hairstyles!!!
2. Tanks…
This used to be a big “bugbear” of mine especially back in the sixties seeing all those M41’s and M47’s masquerading as Panthers and King Tigers in movies like “Battle of the Bulge” and “Combat” on TV. The other favourite was using American M3 Half Tracks as German Hanomags in almost every war film until “Saving Pvt. Ryan”.
Special good “mentions-in-dispatches” should go to the following for at least trying to get it right with their German “mockups”.
a) “Night of the Generals”—good looking Tigers… I think they were originally T34’s
b) “Is Paris Burning”… M24 Chaffees mocked up to look like mini Panthers. Actually I saw one of these at the French. Tank Museum at Saumur with Fred of Toy Soldiers Paris a couple of years ago. A bit wee but not bad from a distance.
c) “Kelly’s Heroes”… those 3 great looking Tigers… don’t know what they were originally… and of course lots of real Shermans.
d) “Saving Pvt. Ryan” and “Band of Brothers”… superb mockups, reproductions and the real thing as well!
3. Jeeps...
Lots of movies have used post-war versions with the full windscreen instead of the WW2 split version, “MacArthur”… “Patton”… and lots of TV movies to name but a few.
No excuse there’s still plenty of the genuine ones around and the WW2 looking, postwar Hotchkis French versions.
4. Finally… Uniforms…
Again up until a few years ago Germans were almost always dressed and “kitted-out” in standard early-war 1940 style uniforms. Even if the action took place late war you rarely saw camouflage smocks or even the ankle boots which replaced the jackboot as typical mid-late war military footwear.
Another thing to look out for is “studio-made” uniforms as opposed to genuine military surplus. Check out John Wayne’s get up in “The Longest Day”. In a lot of old Hollywood movies and some British ones you’ll also see the big coal-skuttle style WW1 German steel helmets on WW2 soldiers.
Obviously I could go on and on but you get the general picture. Actually sometimes I even get more surprised when they get it right!!!
Anyway I still love my war movies… mistakes, bloomers, bloopers and all…
Best wishes and happy watching!
Andy C.
P.S. It never bothers me to see M24 Chaffees pretending to be Shermans… at least they’re WW2 tanks!
theBaron
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A corollary to Andy's point, for me, is using the wrong stock footage. Look at "Midway", for example, using footage of SB2Us and SB2Cs for SBDs, and using the same stock footage of an Essex-class carrier for all of the American carriers, plus, in one shot, one of the Japanese carriers (either Hiryu or Soryu, I think it was). In fact, the best footage that movie had of the Japanese was re-used footage from Tora! Tora! Tora!
The History Channel has the same problem, and not just with aircraft. Watch closely, and you'll see footage used for the wrong time period, nationality, or context. They should have no excuse.
Prost!
Bradley
The History Channel has the same problem, and not just with aircraft. Watch closely, and you'll see footage used for the wrong time period, nationality, or context. They should have no excuse.
Prost!
Bradley
Louis Badolato
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binder001
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That's one of the side benefits of the fall of the iron curtain. The Czechs built the OT810 armored personnel carrier, which was basically an updated SdKFZ 251D. In the last couple decades a number of OT810's came into private hands and show up in displays, movies and reenactments. The biggest difference is the OT810 has a roof over the troop compartment (and some people have removed that feature) and a diesel engine. I agree that it's much better to see a "proper" German halftrack with that distinctive suspension versus the traditional horde of US-built M3A1s.
Gary
1879fanatic
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Don't get me started on the History Channel. I can't even watch it anymore.
Try the Military Channel on channel #198765.or whatever your COMSEC offers or Military History Channel. Much better for that stuff. I have to admit that watching Trucks on ice, and Paul Bunyan post-mod is better than staring stupidly at the Network crap. Mike
theBaron
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Don't get me started on the History Channel. I can't even watch it anymore.
I'm with you on the crypto-zoology and paranormal shows, that's not really history. But I must part ways on the food documentaries, as well as the other stories about the history of technology (building technology, for example) and other subjects. That stuff, at least, is history.
But there is so much good history programming out there, non-military as well as military, some of it originally produced and aired by the History Channel, that they don't need to show the tripe.
Again-lowest common denominator, and what gets ratings-those are the factors.
If we want quality history programming, we have to pull our kids out of the public schools and home-school them, so that they'll grow up into adults who will demand quality history programming.
Prost!
Bradley
Molloy
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I think that's actually deliberately intended to be the same chant from Zulu! Apparently Ridley Scott was a big fan of the film, and so had the Germanic warriors in the opening forest battle utter the same war cry as a subtle little tribute.
Cheers,
Molloy.
Spitfrnd
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Well you raise some good points and can't quibble with the details you noticed but I did want to offer my on take on some of these obvious mistakes.
1. Haircuts, as I have noted before, this never bothers me but then neither did that regulation when I did my own service. I know it grows back but it would have cost the studio a wee bit extra to get me to make that sacrifice as an actor.
So which is better wigs or natural hair, purely a cosmetic judgment call I'd say.2. Tanks. That bothered me when I was younger and before I appreciated the simple math of film making. Budgets are a constraint in films just as much as any other enterprise and before CGI and modern fabrication techniques it simply wasn't possible to use the correct equipment in many cases. Combat was a TV series with even more budget limitations and may be somewhat excused. As you note, Kelly's Heroes used proper Shermans and while the Tigers are Russian T-34's made to look like Tigers, they are done up very realistically, including Zimmerlit (the wavy pattern on the hull of the tiger), which was an anti-magnetic paste put on the tank. At that time they were only 10 drivable Tigers left in the world and simply not cost effective to acquire. Actually the exact same tanks are used as Tigers in Saving Private Ryan (1998) for the same reasons. Kelly's also used a few M3 Half-Tracks painted a darker shade of green for German use but towards the end of the war, the increasingly desperate German Army used all sorts of captured equipment, so that deserves a bye I think. I would give it to you that the movies that don't even bother with some degree of realism where they easily could make the difference do annoy but I can take it in stride if the rest is good. Frankly, given how much these things cost, we are fortunate they use any real stuff at all.
3. Jeeps, good point I guess, again bothered me more when I was younger.
4. Uniforms. I think the studios do a pretty good job here overall. Yes there are the mistakes you note but to me they are below radar. Now if I made military miniatures, they might be more troubling.
5. Planes. As a former jock, these used to bother me more than any or the rest, before I learned to chill and just appreciate what efforts were made to get it close, again with all due regard to the forces of supply and cost. They are too many mismatches to mention but I will note one that missed for obvious reasons that didn't bother me and one case where they went to extraordinary lengths to get it right. Piece of Cake uses Spitfires instead of Hurricanes for the Phony War in France, but at least they were real Spitfires, properly repainted (although they left the cannon barrels in place
but they did not have a film budget) and filmed real flight scenes where ever possible. Besides, Spitfires are much more photogenic; I could watch the flight takeoff scenes over and over (and have). Battle of Britain is a standout for realism in an air combat movie. They used real Spitfires, all the later Marks (with the cannon barrels removed); again because there were no Mark Is still flying at the time. They also used the then only flyable Hurricane (a Mark VII restored and made to look like a Mark I) and the few others that could taxi or be parked. In the scene where the Polish training squadron breaks off to attack, ("Repeat, please"), the three most distant "Hurricanes" from the camera were actually Buchons marked as Hurricanes, but the painting and mockups were well done.
For the German aircraft, the producers assembled 32 CASA 2.111 twin-engine bombers, which were Spanish-built variations of the German Heinkel He-111H-16. They also found 27 Hispano Aviación HA-1112 M1L "Buchon" single-engine fighters, which were Spanish variations of the German Messerschmitt Bf 109. These were then altered to look more like correct period Bf 109Es, by adding mocked-up machine guns and cannons, redundant tail plane struts, and by removing the aircraft's rounded wingtips. The films Ju-52s were actually two post war Spanish-built Junkers Ju 52 transports but are quite close in appearance to the actual war versions. The Spanish aircraft were powered by British Rolls-Royce Merlin engine, and thus all the aircraft used in the film's battle, were ironically powered by British Merlins.
In order to recreate Junkers Ju 87 "Stuka" dive-bombers, the film company acquired four Percival Proctor training aircraft, and converted two of them into 1/2 scale Stuka replicas, complete with a cranked wing. Large scale radio controlled models were used to create the steep diving angle of the original Ju 87 attacks, and radio-controlled Heinkel He 111 models were used to depict bombers being destroyed over the English Channel. Interestingly, to justify the trailing-wire antenna visible in one crash scene they added a cutaway scene showing control wires of a Heinkel being shot loose.
Overall an extraordinary achievement and commitment to detail that benefited from some timing and luck but surely merits our accolades, so let's raise a mug or stein to their efforts mates, they are not likely to ever be duplicated.
Overall, I totally agree with your closing, I love them too with whatever errors they may have so let's celebrate the one's that do the best and enjoy the rest for what they have to offer.