Mounted Drummers and Sappers od Dragoons (3 Viewers)

[Mike Blake]

Can anyone help with some descriptions or better still visual references, please. I am trying to work out exactly how they 'worked' for some 54mm conversions (Napoleonic period). Specifically:

- how the drum was carried ie on the normal drum sling? I've seen pictures showing the drum almost horizonatal but others have it at the usual angle? (Not strictly relevant to a model but how on earth was mounting/dismounting with the drum achieved??) Were there any special items associated eg to hold it steady when riding?

- reins: kettle drummers used stirrup reins - did side drummers?

- sappeurs: how was the sapper kit carried? I have seen pictures and models of dismounted dragoon sappers but not a mounted one. Apron - yes or no?

Thanks in advance for any help provided.

Mike

 

[Martin Tabony]

Can anyone help with some descriptions or better still visual references, please. I am trying to work out exactly how they 'worked' for some 54mm conversions (Napoleonic period). Specifically:

- how the drum was carried ie on the normal drum sling? I've seen pictures showing the drum almost horizonatal but others have it at the usual angle? (Not strictly relevant to a model but how on earth was mounting/dismounting with the drum achieved??) Were there any special items associated eg to hold it steady when riding?

- reins: kettle drummers used stirrup reins - did side drummers?

- sappeurs: how was the sapper kit carried? I have seen pictures and models of dismounted dragoon sappers but not a mounted one. Apron - yes or no?

Thanks in advance for any help provided.

Mike

They Osprey book Napoleon's Dragoons and Lancers has some pictures. My scanner is playing up so hopefully someone else can post pictures.

Martin

 

[Martin Tabony]

Sorted, although I can't find drummers for dragoons unless they were dismounted (unlike the earlier British Light Dragoons)

 

[Mike Blake]

Many thanks Martin, very helpful.

Oddly, it still isn't clear from these whether the apron was worn mounted or not - it shows clearly on the dismounted figure, but not on the mounted ones...

 

[Martin Tabony]

The sapper is wearing jackboots for mounted service, so he is wearing the apron for mounted duties. I also think I've got other pictures somewhere that show the apron on a mounted figure.

Martin

 

[Mike Blake]

Ah - good point - and it is hitched up to the left, presumably to facilitate riding in it. Excellent.

 

[Obee]

Can anyone help with some descriptions or better still visual references, please. I am trying to work out exactly how they 'worked' for some 54mm conversions (Napoleonic period). Specifically:

- how the drum was carried ie on the normal drum sling? I've seen pictures showing the drum almost horizonatal but others have it at the usual angle? (Not strictly relevant to a model but how on earth was mounting/dismounting with the drum achieved??) Were there any special items associated eg to hold it steady when riding?

- reins: kettle drummers used stirrup reins - did side drummers?

- sappeurs: how was the sapper kit carried? I have seen pictures and models of dismounted dragoon sappers but not a mounted one. Apron - yes or no?

Thanks in advance for any help provided.

Mike

Mike,

I'll try and answer your questions based on my immediate knowledge, as I'm at work now, so don't have my uniform resources here.

1. Drummers were only used when the Dragooons were formed as Foot Dragoons, and that was beacuse they were used as infantry. When they regained thier mounts, they resumed having trumpeters.

2. Kettle drummers, which were in the mounted band, would have had to have stippup reins because thier hands has drum sticks. No mounted side drums.

3. The apron wasn't worn mounted, as it got in the way, but was used dismounted for ceremonials. But when they were foot dragoons, the apron was worn all the time, like infantry.

Here is the HISTOREX PLate for Foot Dragoons, aprons on Sappeur, a drummer, but no trumpter

and Mounted Dragoons, but no apron on Sappeur and no Drummer, just a trumpeter

If I can find more, I'll post that tonight,

John

 

[Obee]

Mike,

found another one for Sappeuers, from HISTOREX plates on one of my websites.

Note only the Foot Dragoon has the apron, not the mounted trooper.

John

 

[johnnybach]

Hi Mike - I'm glad that Obee helped clarify the position of drummers and trumpeters in Napoleonic Dragoon Regiments.

As I understand it - Dragoons were first formed to be mounted infantry. The horses were intended just to get them fro one place to another - to dismount and fight as infantry. not always the case though - as they sometimes fought as cavalry ( confusing - eh?).

Now the marching instrument of infantry was basically, the drum. The instrument which carried orders further on horseback was the trumpet.

Put simply, during the Napoleonic Wars - they simply ran out of horses - so that some of the Dragoon Regiments were formed on foot, whilst others became dismounted. Now that's why you get the Infantry Dragoons with drummers - and the mounted ones with trumpets.

Hope that helps ............jb

 

[Obee]

Mike,

I've just had another good look at the images from HISTOREX that I posted, and I can see on both the B&W and Coloured plates that the Mounted Sappeur does have his apron on, but its folded up and held in place with his waist belt.

You can see that it covers his waistcoat too, hence no visible buttons for that garment.

Sorry for the misleading info, but I think I've got it right now :redface2:

John

 

[Obee]

I'm having a GREAT Day at work....

just found an image from Metal Models of a sappeur showing his folded apron, and Knotel also mentions that in his descrption too.

John

 

[Obee]

Now I've found a Kettle Drummer, but of the Dragoons of the Imperial Guard,
hence the light blue and white uniform

but you can clearly see the reins being controlled by the drummers feet in the stirrups.

Image is from Tin Figures

John

 

[Grognard]

I'm having a GREAT Day at work....

just found an image from Metal Models of a sappeur showing his folded apron, and Knotel also mentions that in his descrption too.

John

Here is the same guy viewed from the back showing his axe pouch and shoulder belt.

 

[Obee]

Mike,

home again, and I checked in a French language book, sorry can't read the words, but there are 2 pictures of mounted drummers.

One looks similar to the Kettle Drummer I posted earlier, but the other has a rather large sort of bass drum, but he is dressed like a musician with the brass helmet, but both do have stirrup reins.

I think I have covered all your questions now

John

 

[Mike Blake]

Wow, guys, thanks so much! This is all excellent stuff. Forgive me but I am going to exercise some WL and do a mounted side drummer - these are going to be Italians after all, and I will claim that the colonel wanted a drummer! Apologies if this offends the purists.

The detail of the sapper equipment is particularly good, as it was bothering me as to where it all went!

Sorry - One more question, raised by the info provided I'm afraid - the lance with pennon carried by the mounted sapper - what's that all about??

Again, many thanks,

Mike

PS 'WL' = wargamer's licence

 

[trooper]

Found this picture which shows a mounted drummer, (Not a kettledrummer), note he appears to have only one drumstick and that there are no foot reins, also that the drum is larger than a conventional side drum. Authority is Rousselot, a thoroughly reliable source. Trooper

 

[Mike Blake]

Trooper - brilliant! This is excellent - many thanks.

Mike

 

[Martin Tabony]

Found this picture which shows a mounted drummer, (Not a kettledrummer), note he appears to have only one drumstick and that there are no foot reins, also that the drum is larger than a conventional side drum. Authority is Rousselot, a thoroughly reliable source. Trooper

What an exellent picture, but I assume part of the band (time beater), rather than being the signaling instrument, as used by Foot Dragoons.

Martin

 

[trooper]

What an exellent picture, but I assume part of the band (time beater), rather than being the signaling instrument, as used by Foot Dragoons.

I would think that is correct, Martin, as I have not found any pictures of line dragoon kettledrummers I would assume he took that function. Trooper

 

[Martin Tabony]

As a matter of interest, I was talking to George Lawn who wrote "Music in State Clothing" and apparently The Life Guards band had a mounted snair drummer. (perhaps a reminder of the Horse Grenadiers?) The snair drum was carried suspended from a baldric as for dismounted use. It was easy enough to mount with the drum suspended from the left hip (the near side) although the drummer usualy mounted and had the drum pasted up to him to save any damage to the drum. So presumeably it was the same for the mounted drummers of the Light Dragoons.

Martin