Muhammad Ali (1 Viewer)

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It brings up the age old question of how you weigh duty, patriotism and your conscience.
In the late sixties and early seventies a popular bumper sticker read "America, love it or leave it"......I felt it would be more patriotic to read "America, if you love her work hard to make her better".....

We can never dishonor the men and women who gave their lives, limbs and mental health to fight for their country. But history can teach us about the terrible mistakes governments make that cause unnecessary sacrifices. To hold governments responsible, to ask the tough questions and peacefully protest and legislate against immorality is the responsibility of every citizen.

I'm not sure of Ali's motives and I have my points of contention with him. He did, however, make me think about questioning our government and consider how to protest (peacefully and legally) what was intellectually and morally unacceptable to my beliefs.
 
He brought up the question of what to do if drafted. That was a decision each of us would have to make when called. Interestingly, he never thought of moving to Canada because he said he was an American.

When the first draft lottery was held (1970 or 1971 I don't recall), I was still in college and my number was low (24). Everybody offered condolences because we all knew I would be drafted. I had determined that if called, I would serve and hope for the best that I wouldn't go to Nam; I wasn't going to Canada. Fortunately, I never had to make that decision because the year I graduated from college the War ended.
 
Great boxer.

The Greatest? There are 58,286 names ahead of him when it comes to that title and they are all listed on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial.
 
I never understood why/how he became the icon he was later in life. Okay, he beat poverty and was a great fighter, but why the hero status? I live 40 min from Louisville, his home town and there is a Muhammad Ali Peace Center (not the name, I don't remember what it actually is). Every school child in the county must attend on a school trip to pump up the attendance numbers and justify the cost. And I can't tell you the purpose of the center, other than to promote "world peace."

As a retired veteran and father of a soldier, I had very strong emotions regarding the Viet Nam War and "draft dodgers" But having stood at various memorials to that war and looked down upon markers for fallen 18-19 yrs olds and seeing the result of that war, has changed my views very much. The deaths of American soldiers should count for something. Chris
 
nysoldiers said:
.........He did, however, make me think about questioning our government and consider how to protest (peacefully and legally) what was intellectually and morally unacceptable to my beliefs.
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I agree with your valid concern. Everyone should. However, my questioning is based on High School Civics class. Not said named person.
The First Amendment states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights. It has stood for 225 years.

Civil disobedience not so much.
 
BLReed said:
I agree with your valid concern. Everyone should. However, my questioning is based on High School Civics class. Not said named person.
The First Amendment states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights. It has stood for 225 years.

Civil disobedience not so much.
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Understood.....my experience, however, in the late sixties while in college showed a different interpretation of the First Amendment by many. As I stated earlier signs and posters stated "America, love it or leave it" and civil rights marchers were hosed, beaten, harassed, and attacked with dogs. True there were violent protestors like the SDS, Weathermen and Black Panthers but they were the minority. It is also true that men and women in uniform were insulted and shamed, this was disgraceful.
People who had legitimate concerns or were genuinely opposed to the Vietnam War for moral reasons were termed traitors and cowards. So, especially for a Black man who had so much to risk, to stand up for his beliefs was dangerous. Ali would have never seen combat so I don't think he was a coward. My point was that in reality the First Amendment that you quote was not being upheld in many, many cases. In fact the FBI and other law enforcement agencies harassed and discredited many legitimate and peaceful protestors. I witnessed this first hand. So really Ali had nothing to gain and all to lose. My business partner and best friend served in Vietnam and it took them years to understand that it wasn't about the individual soldiers who gave their lives, they are heroes, it was about challenging our government to make the right decisions. No soldier dies in vain because they demonstrate the country's strength and willingness to defend our freedom. We must hold our government accountable for the right reasons to send our precious troops into harms way.

This in no way should be construed as disrespecting our brave soldiers. Disagreeing with and protesting a war or military action doesn't have to be unpatriotic. In essence it is all about saving American lives (and others) wherever possible. I know there are some who would not put on a uniform for any cause and they do not have my respect but it is our duty to question and redress our grievances peacefully and legally without being ostracized and labeled unpatriotic.
 
I'm digressing, but what really disappoints me was the harassment of our returning troops, who were only trying to survive combat and back up their fellow soldiers. Most didn't want to be there, but had the resolve to go and serve. When the bullets start flying, who cares about government policy. If draft dodgers are afraid, I can understand that. But to harass our young returning soldiers, that really hurts.
 
"I Ain't Got No Quarrel With The VietCong...."

-Muhammad Ali

Neither did any of the hundreds of thousands of soldiers who went and fought when called.
 
This thread is starting to veer from a discussion of Ali to a discussion of the Viet Nam War seemingly whether or not a person had a disagreement with the War he should have gone. if that's what we're saying, I strongly disagree. I never believed in Stephen Decatur's dictum about my country, right or wrong. The people who burnt their draft card and refused to go or went to Canada felt they were just as patriotic as those who went. If thousands upon thousands of Americans had not protested the War, who knows we still might be there, propping up an illegal regime.
 
jazzeum said:
propping up an illegal regime.
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This is the kind of stuff that gets these threads heated.I do agree that the thread is veering off.I think that's why no one started a thread about Ali as most knew it would lead to this.
Mark
 
That's the way I felt at the time Mark. I'm just being honest. However, I do agree with you otherwise.

I can appreciate that some didn't like Ali and some did and I have no issue with that because in many ways he was a controversial figure. Moreover, he stated that why should he fight to help the US in the War when his people didn't have freedom in their own country.

Now, the question is do we want to have a full discussion about the War or just maybe let sleeping dogs lie. However, I will not agree and do not agree that the people who disagreed with the War were unpatriotic.

Brad
 
jazzeum said:
...... just maybe let sleeping dogs lie.
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The hoopla news cycle is finished for the most part, and I don't have to mute or change channels.
Well. maybe a bit Friday with the burial.

Then we can turn to his kids fighting over his $80 million. Of which the Government gets half, and the Department
of Defense share is 56%.
 
I don't think you can have a discussion about Ali without it going beyond boxing. After all the persona that he created went far beyond the sport.

Vietnam is just one example of this.
 
Since I started the discussion maybe its appropriate that I end it.
Thank you all for your honest and forthright opinions I knew there would be some controversy and emotion.
I just thought that if nothing else Muhammad Ali's life was worth some discussion, historically anyway.
I would never disrespect our veterans but political differences and debates do honor to the freedom they fought for.
 
I am a big boxing fan, always have been. His fights were unbelievable and I appreciate them immensely as a fan. Ali also did a lot of good things as he aged and I did feel sorry for him that his "mouth" was debilitated later in life by a terrible disease. Some would say - poetic justice, but I think that borders on inhuman. I don't agree with his stance on the war because it should always be America first and every American is just as good as every other American.

Caveat - I was born in 1973, long after the conflict, so I rely on my interpretation of history and I can guarantee when I was a free loving college student who went to Dead Concerts and liked that bohemian lifestyle, I had a different viewpoint. As a mature adult, I will remember him as one of the Greatest boxers (if not the greatest) and as an adult who did and gave back. As a student of history - do not appreciate his insults or politics of the time and that lessens a little of his luster.

I do believe on a whole, his positives outweighed his negatives and he brought a lot of joy to boxing fans and helped others along the way.

TD
 
Great article by Rosie Schaap, the daughter of the late Dick Schaap, editor of Sport Magazine, about her meeting Ali when she was a child.

image.jpeg

Muhammad Ali, My Father and Me.

The author today.

image.jpeg
 
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Great boxer, great personality and presence. who cares what his feelings were about the war? millions felt it an unjust war does not make him less of a great boxer or even mess of a person. what a shame to ban him from a sport he obviously loved and obviously loved by many thousands. That was just petty and vindictive
 
I think many saw him as two faced as he didn't want to go to war but the sport he was in is considered violent and barbaric by many.
Mark
 
Baymax said:
Great boxer, great personality and presence. who cares what his feelings were about the war? millions felt it an unjust war does not make him less of a great boxer or even mess of a person. what a shame to ban him from a sport he obviously loved and obviously loved by many thousands. That was just petty and vindictive
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a lot of people cared about his feelings on the war and how he avoided going...

while millions may have felt it was an unjust war...
millions also had family and friends that went over their and served their country...
and never came back...
I'm guessing if you lost your father...son or a friend there...
you might see things differently...

I can easily see why he was banned from boxing here...
why should you reap the benefits of a nation that protects your rights and freedom...
a nation where you can make a fortune...
but refuse to serve it...

and he wasn't banned from boxing...
he was only banned from boxing here...
he could have lived somewhere else and boxed there...

does this diminish his boxing skills?

no...

I don't think it was petty or vindictive...

why shouldn't he obey the rules we all live by?
 
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