Napoleon (3 Viewers)

Okay sometime I just don't understand Ron's fascination with Napoleon.

I always get confused with the Napoleon II to say nothing for Napoleon III.

Myself I have always preferred a cannoli to a Napoleon anyway......but in

the interest of being fair I decided to look up Napoleon.......and just look at

what I found!:eek:

Njja

OMG. Now THAT is scary....run away....run away...!!!

Cheers
H
 
Reb

Great Post - and my point exactly !

He was a great man and did change the world. His accomplishments were many and far reaching. Sure, there we black marks on the record - but look at the UK and USA - we have them too !

To me - I go beyond the old british attempt to belittle Napoleon. He had that something which cause men to follow him and fight years of War for him. He was that kind of a leader.

I am not saying that man was a Saint ! - who among us are? ... Well OK - Peter makes that grade ;) - What I am saying in BIG BOLD BLUE LETTERS he was larger than life and someone who changed the World in politics, war, and list of other things - most for the better.

Ron


Oh! dear Ron you sure have started one here

Your "great man" has been glorified and equally demonised ever since his demise. He was seen as the saviour and preserver of the Revolution and as the traitor of it's most fundamental ideals.Some saw him as the veritable soul of the French people while for others he was simply an opportunistic foreigner.

He introduced the concept of total war and conscription with the ideal that it was the duty of ordinary citizens to fight. This concept led to the US Civil War and indirectly WWI & II and those participants who adopted his model quickly realised that by targeting and decimating the civilian population vastly reduced the fighting capacity of their enemy.

He was without doubt a military genius but when he made mistakes they were catastrophic. No one has ever given me a viable explanation of what on earth he hoped to gain by invading Russia-instigated simply because the Czar would not participate in his Continental blockade because of the adverse effects it was having on the Russian economy.

Was he barbaric? Well he didn't exactly cover himself with glory during his Egyptian campaign, one example was Jaffa where his soldiers slaughtered over 2000 Turks as they tried to surrender and spent the next three days in a free for all blood fest slaughtering every single inhabitant of the city including a further 3000 Turkish soldier prisoners. If his army had not been weakened by the plague history would have shown a repeat performance of the above had they taken the fortress at Acre.

But he rid Europe of the corrupt aristocracy and opened the eyes of the down trodden ordinary citizen to the ideals of a true democracy that became a model for the world. His suppression of the tyranny (at the time) of the Holy Roman Catholic Church allowed freedom of expression which would have resulted in death under previous regimes.
His sponsorship of scientific exploration led directly to major discoveries that simply would not have been allowed by the church. He inspired a flourish in art, literature, law and politics. He instituted the metric system which has had a profound influence across the whole of Europe. His Napoleonic Codes (Civil Laws) are still in effect in France, Italy and even Louisiana where I believe they still use the Napoleonic term "parish" instead of "county" (As an aside the Louisiana Purchase you guys got from him was a pretty good deal at three cents an acre:eek:)

So all in all Ron in my humble opinion your "Great Man" is a bit of a mixed bag but it is a fact that history is darn more interesting because of him.

Reb
 
This man is;)

Roger Moore, that's who. Before that, the Saint was portrayed in film by George Sanders (a great actor IMO). One of my other loves beyond toy soldiers is "series" detectives on film, books and tv. Watch the old movies and you will have the whistle in your head for days. If you like the Saint, check out the old RKO Falcon movies, starring Sanders in the first few until his real life brother Tom Conway took over, another great period actor.

TD
 
Re: K&C July Dispatches

There are a number of similarities between Hitler and Napoleon. Both are popular with toy soldier collectors, and both were ultimately defeated by massive coalitions of nations. Both came to grief in Russia and both underestimated the fierce determination of the British under some very skillful and wise politicians. It was Pitt the Younger who steeled the resolve of the British people and who created the coalitions that would ultimately defeat Napoleon. Just as in 1940 so in 1800 Britain stood alone against a great European dictator. It was Churchill who in the dark days of 1940 rallied the British to resist and ultimately triumph. Just as Pitt the Younger knew that only by acting together could Europe be free so Churchill knew he would have to forge and alliance with the free world and even with the Soviets to achieve victory.
The similarities are indeed interesting
Regards
Damian

La folie et le génie marchent ensemble
 
...
Do you seriously believe that a man with that kind of a legacy is worth exhaulted praise? fi so please explain the "Good" side of Napoleon?

Let's try this ...

He loved his mother.
He loved his Josephine, as should a first wife.
He loved Marie Louise, an Austrian Princess for his second.
He loved his brothers, and made them kings.
He loved his sisters, and married them to kings.
He loved his step children, and adopted them as his own.
He loved his Generals, and made them Marshals.
He loved his soldiers, as a General could.
Why, he could even love his enemy Alexander of Russia.
Most of all he loved France, as France still does of him.

Now with all that love to go around ... wouldn't that be a little "Good" ?

OD
 
Re: K&C July Dispatches

There are a number of similarities between Hitler and Napoleon. Both are popular with toy soldier collectors, and both were ultimately defeated by massive coalitions of nations. Both came to grief in Russia and both underestimated the fierce determination of the British under some very skillful and wise politicians. It was Pitt the Younger who steeled the resolve of the British people and who created the coalitions that would ultimately defeat Napoleon. Just as in 1940 so in 1800 Britain stood alone against a great European dictator. It was Churchill who in the dark days of 1940 rallied the British to resist and ultimately triumph. Just as Pitt the Younger knew that only by acting together could Europe be free so Churchill knew he would have to forge and alliance with the free world and even with the Soviets to achieve victory.
The similarities are indeed interesting
Regards
Damian

One major difference is that Hitler was consumed with his hatred of the Jews, the Slavs, Western democracy, and eventually, with his own people, whom he wanted to consign to a Götterdämmerung, when they proved unequal to his vision of a new order. I don't think Napoleon had any such hatred, and if he had any prejudices at all, they were those of his era and do not mark him out among any other Westerners of his time.

Also, Hitler certainly succumbed to megalomania, which grew until he lost most touch with reality. Napoleon had a supreme confidence in his own qualities, and he overestimated himself and the capabilities of his state and his allies, but I don't think he could be described as a megalomaniac, certainly not in the same way.

Prosit!
Bradley
 
I can appreciate military genius whoever it is Napoleon,Rommel,Patton etc.Military skill in history shines like a beacon down the ages,its one of the things that attracts us to Military History after all.However i'm afraid Ron's argument is always undermined by his own obsession with making anti British statements.It does seem that whenever someone raises a question or complaint about Napoleon he takes it SO personally that out come the digs at us.Just the other day someone chose their favourite Napoleonic set as 'Seizing the colours',perfectly reasonable,no cause of friction or insult in anyway.Straight away he posted the pics of the dead Brits saying 'Well this is my fave'! and then 'Only kidding'! after it.Sorry Ron (and i really don't want another argument about it)but i'm afraid 'Only kidding' no longer cuts it,people on this forum including myself are offended by this and be fair mate you know it but continue to do it.Hatred of a country that spills over onto a forum is disturbing,its really not needed.Ron you are obviously a very passionate supporter of Napoleon,why not talk up his achievements and drop the hatred towards us.

I think Damian,Reb and many others have made some great points here,no doubting Napoleons military skill and considerable genius on the battlefield,you simply don't achieve what he did by being a novice at warfare.I also agree with Louis about the likeness to WW1 General's.I think one of Damians comparisons is also noteworthy,the fact that Pitt and Churchill both had to rally a nation and forge an alliance for final victory.

Rob
 
Ron'll really love this one, then: I think that if it weren't for Louis the XIV and Napoleon, there wouldn't even be a France as we know it today. Both were able to take advantages of weaknesses-military, political and social-on the part of their neighbors and take the process of building the French nation-state, which to me, seems always to have been based on the tension between the Ile de France and the outlying regions, to the level of conquering territory that had nothing to do with the French.

As Linda Richman used to say on "Coffee Talk", "Discuss!"

Prost, beianand!
Bradley
 
Rob,

Just one point about Ron's anti-English bent - I'm pretty sure he's of English and Irish descent. Now the Irish part could account for something anti-English, but I doubt he hates his own ancestry. I think he just loves Napoleon.
 
Rob,

Just one point about Ron's anti-English bent - I'm pretty sure he's of English and Irish descent. Now the Irish part could account for something anti-English, but I doubt he hates his own ancestry. I think he just loves Napoleon.

Hey Louis,yeah you are probably right.You have to admire his devotion to Napoleon.Its ok i'm off my high horse now mate;)

Rob
 
Rob

I believe you are way too sensitive when some makes a joke or pokes at Mother England - it one thing to be Patriotic its another to believe I have it out for England.

We have had this discussion before - I find that when someone take a negative view of Napoleon or the French Napoleonic Empire and you respond by saying Britain had its faults - suddenly you are "anti-british" - please :rolleyes:

I am not anti-british - if you would go and look at my photo albums in this forum you will see a huge number British Toy Soldiers - My desk in my office has a Flight line of British WWII Hurricanes in a Battle of Britain dio - my curio cabinets are full of British Napoleonics - as matter of fact I probally have more British K&C Napoleonics than you do. Is that ANTI- BRITISH ?

My friend you have got to stop this "if you say something I don't agree with on Britain - you are Anti-British" attitude. The photo caption from another thread was a joke and was followed up with my real favorite Artillery Sets from K&C. I mean really, calm down.

I have great respect for Great Britain - I love the Queen, fish & chips, the Union Jack, the British troops over in Afghanistan with US Troops, Winston Churchill, and the Beatles.

I am a member of the Friends of UK on Linked In - I am on the Top Invite list to the British Embassy for Events throughout the year - worked directly with your Parliamentary Members on US-BRITISH defense issues / even so much so that I called a British Ambassador from my colleagues in Congress - I work closely with the British Defense Alliance here in Washington - I have a English Firm as a Client - so really - I dont think this opinion of yours holds merit.

Lets lighten up - but, also remember that English Monarchs had their faults too - doesnt make England a bad Country - just makes them like the rest of us.

Your Friend,

Ron



I can appreciate military genius whoever it is Napoleon,Rommel,Patton etc.Military skill in history shines like a beacon down the ages,its one of the things that attracts us to Military History after all.However i'm afraid Ron's argument is always undermined by his own obsession with making anti British statements.It does seem that whenever someone raises a question or complaint about Napoleon he takes it SO personally that out come the digs at us.Just the other day someone chose their favourite Napoleonic set as 'Seizing the colours',perfectly reasonable,no cause of friction or insult in anyway.Straight away he posted the pics of the dead Brits saying 'Well this is my fave'! and then 'Only kidding'! after it.Sorry Ron (and i really don't want another argument about it)but i'm afraid 'Only kidding' no longer cuts it,people on this forum including myself are offended by this and be fair mate you know it but continue to do it.Hatred of a country that spills over onto a forum is disturbing,its really not needed.Ron you are obviously a very passionate supporter of Napoleon,why not talk up his achievements and drop the hatred towards us.

I think Damian,Reb and many others have made some great points here,no doubting Napoleons military skill and considerable genius on the battlefield,you simply don't achieve what he did by being a novice at warfare.I also agree with Louis about the likeness to WW1 General's.I think one of Damians comparisons is also noteworthy,the fact that Pitt and Churchill both had to rally a nation and forge an alliance for final victory.

Rob
 
Rob,

Just one point about Ron's anti-English bent - I'm pretty sure he's of English and Irish descent. Now the Irish part could account for something anti-English, but I doubt he hates his own ancestry. I think he just loves Napoleon.


Thank you Louis - you are quite right !

My ancestors were English and Irish - ready for this .... They Were Protestant Irish to Boot ! :eek:
 
Ron,

Now you are attacking us Catholic Irish? Next it 'll be "Make the six part of olde England"! I love this banter. Mike
 
Rob and Ron,

Now, that you've both gotten that off your chests, can we move on or can you both discuss this off line.

Thank you.
 
There is a common fact in all this. "Napoleon was a great leader" Now it is up yo us to determine why and how. I mean his men loved him and would follow him to the end of the earth. Granted, most true leaders do possess some rather difficult traits, and also make mistakes once in a while. Jeez, someone mentioned Richard Nixon! What were the traits that made him larger in life(and death) and that keep his spirit going even to this day in France? Anyone? Mike
 
There is a common fact in all this. "Napoleon was a great leader" Now it is up yo us to determine why and how. I mean his men loved him and would follow him to the end of the earth. Granted, most true leaders do possess some rather difficult traits, and also make mistakes once in a while. Jeez, someone mentioned Richard Nixon! What were the traits that made him larger in life(and death) and that keep his spirit going even to this day in France? Anyone? Mike
His dog, Checkers?
 
Hi everyone I have a question for Napoleonic fans.....sorry for my English and my ignorance of the subject...:rolleyes:

Why it is so popular this way of fighting? I never understand this military tradition, from the early 17th Century to mid-19th. You fire first than it is my turn......With no offences to nobody, its looks ridiculous.

IMO, if you put the Roman Armyor any ancient Army (2 000 years ago) against any type of white wigs of these eras, the Romans will massacre then....with no gun powder....

Those rifles had an accuracy of 25 meters no more than that, than you have to be well dressed with some makeovers, beautiful WHITE socks and well tight pans.....hummmm.....

Sorry if I offended anyone here....it is not my goal
 
Rob, there was a time when I would have agreed with you about Ron being anti British, but I have since found he is just a guy that likes to stir the pot for laughs now and then - as I have been known to do from time to time.
 
Oh I can hear the boos and hisses and feel the stones whizzing by my head already :D:D Don't sweat it fellas, my moral sphincter isn't wound too tight today. :D:p

Ron- I think we are very similar in tastes- albeit two different guys- Nap and Casesar. For me, I am really intrigued in ancient Rome and most people identify with Caesar because of it. I love all the interesting personalities on both sides of the coin- Caesar, Marcus Aurelius, Vespasian and my favorite of all- Scipio (Saber- I think it is time to unlease that picture for Ron ;) then we also have Hannibal, Spartacus, Alaric, Boudicca and Vercingetorix. It is just a period of time that is really fascinating to me.

However, I gotta agree with Ray on this one. As much as I enjoy the history of Rome, Caesar was a terrible tyrant and I don't really try to see it any other way- by our standards and even his own time period- starting civil war, killing his best friends to attain power- pretty unsavory stuff. Rome in many regards was a combination of Animal House and Girls Gone Wild wrapped in a toga. There were some amazing advances that Rome brought to us- architecture, law and civics, government but then they had slavery and gladiatorial games and other oppresive policies.

I have met a lot of guys like Ron at wargaming shows. No doubt, the Nap era is chock full of excitement and I think that is deep down what Ron really finds amazing about the era. I don't really think Ron tries to glorify the policies of Napoleon as much as he still "Hears the guns". He sees major battles the same way I see them with Caesar - armies squaring up and going at one another. To me, I have the ability to make the disconnect between the military history/science aspect of the events of that period and the policies of some of the personalities and I am sure Ron feels the same.

No doubt in my mind, if I were a Centurion in the 10th and started trying to discuss the ethics of fairness to the women and children of Alesia, Caesar would've had me scourged, flayed and then strung up and crucified.

At least, that is what I think based on our chats Ron- I could be wrong...........


Take care and enjoy the weekend fellas
CC
 
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