Napoleonic Paintings You Would Like to Represent (3 Viewers)

[g18]

Noah, it is not that they are not well done; we all know they are. It is rather that charging cavalry is well overdone and very disproportionate to the number and length of real charges in battle, especially at Waterloo. While the grand charge against the squares is iconic, it is not very representative of events at the battle from all accounts. The fields were soaked and there were few examples of true charges. Moreover, cavalry generally did not charge up to the squares but rather between them to the extent there were real charges. So while the FL Cuirassiers are beautiful and correct for the limited circumstances they represent and certainly consistent with the mass mis-impressions about the battle, they are also not as flexible and consistent with the true fighting scenes of cavalry at Waterloo or elsewhere. Moreover, unless you should show them charging from the other side of a large table or well away from a square, they are not so easy to show against their opponents since almost all charges ended well before the foe was encountered. I just hope we don't get charging British cavalry since that was the stupid and incredibly wasteful and ineffective part of their participation at Waterloo.

As usual, I agree with Bill on this.

This is the problem I have when trying to display charging cavalry against infantry when there is space constraints.

And no charging Scots Grey, please {eek3}

 

[g18]

Also, this figure is an excellent impression of those that would have reached the squares, correct?

Noah

It must be a very brave (or lucky) horse if the square is within a few paces. So I would think this is not the position of one that is very near a square. The squares would fire when enemy cavalry approach within 30-40 yards - disciplined fire would make it extremely difficult for such a pose to be present right in front of the squares. The more daring cavalry man would ride up ( saunter perhaps, but most likely not charging) to the bayonets, wave his sword about and bully; but the mass would hold aloof - afraid to go on, and yet ashamed to retire. The British squares were generally very solid in Waterloo, and the French cavalry met with very little success.

I am interested to be able to display skirmishes between cavalry - quite some possibilities there. Here at close quarters, space constraints is less of a problem.

 

[Fusilier]

It must be a very brave (or lucky) horse if the square is within a few paces. So I would think this is not the position of one that is very near a square. The natural reaction would be for horses to really really pull up within 5 or 6 yards. The more daring cavalry man would ride up ( saunter perhaps, but most likely not charging) to the bayonets, wave his sword about and bully; but the mass would hold aloof - afraid to go on, and yet ashamed to retire. The squares would fire when the Cuiraissiers approached within 30-40 yards - disciplined fire would make it extremely difficult for such a pose to be present right in front of the squares.The British squares were generally very solid in Waterloo, and the French cavalry met with very little success.

I am interested to be able to display skirmishes between cavalry - quite some possibilities there. Here at close quarters, space constraints is less of a problem.

I didn't mean to imply that this figure represented one that was actually crossing blades with British infantry in square, because as you explain, that didn't really happen. I had just thought that this specific Carabinier represented fairly well those that had thier mounts rear up and stop while advancing on the square. It would seem then, that out of the French cavalry FL has produced so far, this one would be more representative of what happened at spcifically at Waterloo. More so than the outright, headlong, charging poses.

Perhaps some other poses would be good, ones that would also be more representative of those facing the squares. Poses such as a French cavalryman firing his carbine, having is mount turning away from the infantry or one stopped and yelling at his opponents. Basically some non-charging poses, but ones that show the cavalry within a relatively close distance to the infantry.

I do hear you on the skirmishing poses though. It that is what you are looking to display, it is an untapped subject so far.

Noah

 

[g18]

I didn't mean to imply that this figure represented one that was actually crossing blades with British infantry in square, because as you explain, that didn't really happen. I had just thought that this specific Carabinier represented fairly well those that had thier mounts rear up and stop while advancing on the square. It would seem then, that out of the French cavalry FL has produced so far, this one would be more representative of what happened at spcifically at Waterloo. More so than the outright, headlong, charging poses.

Perhaps some other poses would be good, ones that would also be more representative of those facing the squares. Poses such as a French cavalryman firing his carbine, having is mount turning away from the infantry or one stopped and yelling at his opponents. Basically some non-charging poses, but ones that show the cavalry within a relatively close distance to the infantry.

I do hear you on the skirmishing poses though. It that is what you are looking to display, it is an untapped subject so far.

Noah

That's a nice pose and my interpretation would be that this particular carabinier could be about to engage a lone infantry man or two - who are somehow separated from the safety of their square. Or he could be in the process of over-running some British artillery... which have just fired their rounds and the crew are already running for the safety of a nearby infantry square.

You have some interesting suggestions for cavalry at close quarters and I hope FL would take them into consideration. In addition to the carbine firer, I would also add one firing a pistol.

Cheers

 

[g18]

Why not. I really do believe you will get this bloke (he is also an Icon of the wars) and I hope it is soon. If you do send either those photos please tell Matt NOT to let his sculptor use the position of either horse as a model; they are both wrong.:rolleyes2: I am all for artistic license but ...... not with basic anatomy and movement issues.:wink2:

I don't know why it is taking so long for this madly tenacious fella to make his appearance :wink2: And it is good that Bill can warn of the pitfalls of following some of these dramatic pictures before they really make one in their full likeness {eek3}

Cheers

 

[FirstLegion]

Noah, it is not that they are not well done; we all know they are. It is rather that charging cavalry is well overdone and very disproportionate to the number and length of real charges in battle, especially at Waterloo. While the grand charge against the squares is iconic, it is not very representative of events at the battle from all accounts. The fields were soaked and there were few examples of true charges. Moreover, cavalry generally did not charge up to the squares but rather between them to the extent there were real charges. So while the FL Cuirassiers are beautiful and correct for the limited circumstances they represent and certainly consistent with the mass mis-impressions about the battle, they are also not as flexible and consistent with the true fighting scenes of cavalry at Waterloo or elsewhere. Moreover, unless you should show them charging from the other side of a large table or well away from a square, they are not so easy to show against their opponents since almost all charges ended well before the foe was encountered. I just hope we don't get charging British cavalry since that was the stupid and incredibly wasteful and ineffective part of their participation at Waterloo.

I just have to disagree with some of this. If we were to do cavalry based on how much time they spent in a certain pose, we'd do them all standing waiting (or milling around regrouping after being recalled). Fighting/swinging their swords is probably the action they spent the very least amount of time doing on any battlefield. Further, our cavalry aren't just for Waterloo, but also to represent the massed charges at Borodino as well (or really any battle). As for scale and distance, the same would hold true of infantry, which rarely came within 50-80 yards of each other, so again you'd have to setup opposing infantry at the opposite end of a good sized table as well!

I think in the end, this boils down to your preference for fighting cavalry figures! ^&grin

As to a few other points made in this thread:

1. If we do heavy British Cavalry, it's a safe bet that they too will be charging. Perhaps based on feedback here we'll add a few who could be in melee.
2. As for doing a Blucher figure like the one shown, that wouldn't be possible as the one shown has the horse standing on ZERO legs! We're pretty good and can pull of the very difficult one legged pose, but zero legs is beyond even our skill! ^&grin

Best,

Matt

 

[Vezzolf]

Maybe you missed these ^&confuse

I noticed the bases are NOT square on these Charging Figures.....Are these FL or K/C calvery?....I would think they are K/C???....Can anyone do a side by side comparison of First Legion Cuirassiers with these posted Cuirassiers pictures...Thank you in advance...Frank

 

[Gebhard]

I noticed the bases are NOT square on these Charging Figures.....Are these FL or K/C calvery?....I would think they are K/C???....Can anyone do a side by side comparison of First Legion Cuirassiers with these posted Cuirassiers pictures...Thank you in advance...Frank

Frank ,
The bottom two pictures are of two First legion Cuirassiers with the 'NOT square" bases test figures and one of the 3 in those photos is C&C . These are early shots before they decided to go with square bases . I'm guessing you can figure out which one is the C&C figure. Regards Gebhard

 

[Spitfrnd]

I just have to disagree with some of this. If we were to do cavalry based on how much time they spent in a certain pose, we'd do them all standing waiting (or milling around regrouping after being recalled). Fighting/swinging their swords is probably the action they spent the very least amount of time doing on any battlefield. Further, our cavalry aren't just for Waterloo, but also to represent the massed charges at Borodino as well (or really any battle). As for scale and distance, the same would hold true of infantry, which rarely came within 50-80 yards of each other, so again you'd have to setup opposing infantry at the opposite end of a good sized table as well!

I think in the end, this boils down to your preference for fighting cavalry figures! ^&grin

As to a few other points made in this thread:

1. If we do heavy British Cavalry, it's a safe bet that they too will be charging. Perhaps based on feedback here we'll add a few who could be in melee.
2. As for doing a Blucher figure like the one shown, that wouldn't be possible as the one shown has the horse standing on ZERO legs! We're pretty good and can pull of the very difficult one legged pose, but zero legs is beyond even our skill! ^&grin

Best,

Matt

Great to see you engaged here Matt.^&cool Of course you know I love your mounted figures so yes it is a question of preference as I noted initially. That said, I have a few comments in reply to yours.

I never said that fighting was the most time spent for cavalry on the battlefield, just that charging was not all that common for the most part and particularly Waterloo. Of course, infantry spent a fair amount of time marching and standing as well. Naturally everyone has their preferences and for those of us who favor action, the fighting poses are the most interesting. Thus for cavalry that would be slashing and hacking, as you put it. It is not that charging cavalry does not have its place but rather it shouldn't be exclusive since that limits its display to one part of its action. It that way it is a bit akin to having all firing infantry.

I would also say that my sources suggest that in the case of British versus French battles, infantry was within 50 yards of other infantry not that infreqently and even cavalry charges passed as close as several yards of squares, even at Waterloo. Of course Waterloo had broken squares and cavalry catching infantry in skirmish and in line or column, as did other battles with charges. However, most often when the foes were that close to each other they were preparing for or actually engaged in close fighting.:wink2:

Great to hear you might add some melee figures to any British heavies you might do. Certainly that would be much appreciated and for Waterloo, a most appropriate addition to your charging ones.

For the Blucher painting, yes it shows the horse in mid jump (or attempts to anyway). Your horse sculptures have not had the mistakes in leg positions we see far to often in historical paintings and some other sculpts in this scale and I wanted to observe that while this painting showed great action, as a model, it suffered from that problem.

 

[Gebhard]

This thread is just too good to let slide down the list , Just encase somebody missed this one the first time around :salute:::redface2: Blücher Bitte Best regards Gebhard

2. As for doing a Blucher figure like the one shown, that wouldn't be possible as the one shown has the horse standing on ZERO legs! We're pretty good and can pull of the very difficult one legged pose, but zero legs is beyond even our skill! ^&grin

Best,

Matt

How about this one then :wink2: I don't own a horse but it looks ****ed good to me , not to mention the man riding him {sm4} my hopes are soaring after Matt even mentioned the name ...best regards Gebhard

 

[Vezzolf]

Frank ,
The bottom two pictures are of two First legion Cuirassiers with the 'NOT square" bases test figures and one of the 3 in those photos is C&C . These are early shots before they decided to go with square bases . I'm guessing you can figure out which one is the C&C figure. Regards Gebhard

Thanks Gebhard, I prefer the square bases...glad they decided to do them that way...Do you own any of these? I am considering them.......even though I don't collect Naps...yet

 

[Spitfrnd]

How about this one then :wink2: I don't own a horse but it looks ****ed good to me , not to mention the man riding him {sm4} my hopes are soaring after Matt even mentioned the name ...best regards Gebhard

I think you are good on the man; when Matt starts repeating the names, they tend to follow not too long after.

The hind legs on the horse in that painting are not quite right I am afraid. It seems the sculptor confused the three beat motion of a canter with a rear. The hind legs show the canter and the front and the body show the rear. For that, the two hind legs should be adjacent and the left hind one more under the horse to balance and support the weight in this position. So with that correction, it would be a good choice for the excellence and accuracy in sculpting we all expect and receive from FL.:wink2:

 

[Gebhard]

Thanks Gebhard, I prefer the square bases...glad they decided to do them that way...Do you own any of these? I am considering them.......even though I don't collect Naps...yet

Hi ,
I don't yet own them all ..only two , but I'm in the process of adding them into my monthly orders . If you are considering them I can highly recommend them with absolutely no hesitation :wink2: they are superb.... First legion IMO have taken the collecting of Napoleonic figures to the next level , but I would warn you they are very addicting :wink2: . Gebhard

 

[Gebhard]

How about some militia :wink2:

 

[Gebhard]

I think you are good on the man; when Matt starts repeating the names, they tend to follow not too long after.

The hind legs on the horse in that painting are not quite right I am afraid. It seems the sculptor confused the three beat motion of a canter with a rear. The hind legs show the canter and the front and the body show the rear. For that, the two hind legs should be adjacent and the left hind one more under the horse to balance and support the weight in this position. So with that correction, it would be a good choice for the excellence and accuracy in sculpting we all expect and receive from FL.:wink2:

I have no idea what your talking about as my knowledge of Horses is non existent , I thought it looked like it was and my big Horse term REARING UP ^&grin but its good to know your on the case keeping First legion on the right course :wink2: Gebhard

 

[Spitfrnd]

Hi ,
I don't yet own them all ..only two , but I'm in the process of adding them into my monthly orders . If you are considering them I can highly recommend them with absolutely no hesitation :wink2: they are superb.... First legion IMO have taken the collecting of Napoleonic figures to the next level , but I would warn you they are very addicting :wink2: . Gebhard

Oh Yeah, there is absolutely NO doubt about the addiction and I certainly want to get these as well eventually. Hopefully they will still be around when the competiting priorities are satisfied.{eek3}:wink2: Now if they all wouldn't look so bloody good, solvency would not be as much of a challenge.

 

[Spitfrnd]

I have no idea what your talking about as my knowledge of Horses is non existent , I thought it looked like it was and my big Horse term REARING UP ^&grin but its good to know your on the case keeping First legion on the right course :wink2: Gebhard

Your horse term is a good one and correctly describes what the painter intended. The problem is that while the front and body are rearing, the hind legs are not positioned correctly to support that movement. When you think of it, it is simply a question of physics; too much mass on one end of the balance point. So to correctly show a rear, the horse's hind legs would need to both be more forward.

 

[Gebhard]

I'm not giving up ^&grin^&grin.. Regards Gebhard

 

[Spitfrnd]

I'm not giving up ^&grin^&grin.. Regards Gebhard

Lovely painting Geb, apart from the horse's leg positions, but just WHO the blood h*ll is that bloke?:tongue:^&grin^&grin{sm4}

 

[Gebhard]

I'm not giving up ^&grin^&grin.. Regards Gebhard

Ok while no official announcement yet .. I think its safe to say Vater Blücher is on his way . Now how about the First Legion treatment on some of those Landwehr figures {bravo}}{bravo}}{bravo}} they are most needed... Regards Gebhard